Talk:Bahamian English

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[Untitled]

I rewrote the second section but it still needs a lot of work, particularly from an expert on the subject, which I am not. My content should be sound though not expert. Mal7798 (talk) 01:50, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Vocabulary

I just wrote a long list of terminology specific to this dialect, but I am aware that it may need to be rewritten and split into topic-specific sections. Does anybody suppose that they could help to rewrite it? I am not much of an expert on this topic, but I am very engaged in my research. Uptherial (talk) 02:41, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

"Bahamian English", "Bahamian Creole", "Bahamianese", etc."

My apologies for attempting to edit these subjects. I would like to point out that there is no such thing as Bahamian English or "Bahamianese", the latter of which isn't even a word. The official language of The Bahamas is English. Most Bahamians also speak a dialect/creole which is simply called Bahamian. Only one entry is necessary to cover "The Bahamian Language" or "Bahamian Creole". IslandGirl242 (talk) 18:19, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying this very article shouldn't exist? It's about the dialect(s) of English native to the Bahamas. And where are you seeing anything about Bahamianese? Wolfdog (talk) 22:29, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm saying that there is no such thing as "Bahamian English". The Bahamian dialect should be called Bahamian, Bahamian Dialect or Bahamian Creole.

Bahamianese is referenced as another article. IslandGirl242 (talk) 23:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@Wolfdog Yes, there should only be one entry. For background, I create the page on Bahamian dialect and them someone ~~changed the name~~ *redirected to Bahamian creole and despite not being Bahamian, argued with me that Bahamian English is actually a creole. I tried to explain that regardless of whether it's a creole or a dialect, it's referred to universally in the Bahamas as "Bahamian dialect" so that's how it should appear in Wikipedia. Someone else then created this page on "Bahamian English" (which seems to essentially describe Bahamian dialect). Like @IslandGirl242, as a Bahamian, I have no idea what is meant to be the distinction between Bahamian creole or Bahamian English nor would I be able to identify someone speaking one over the other. There really needs to be just one page, preferably called "Bahamian dialect". I would merge the pages but, if the result is just that someone comes along and changes it the "Bahamian creole" again, what would be the point? MmeMaigret (talk) 03:38, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

(*revised previous comment MmeMaigret (talk) 07:38, 22 August 2025 (UTC))

Can you point to the article you're discussing (or any other relevant/useful ones) please.

@Wolfdog She's referring to the article Bahamian Creole. There is also a redirect from "Bahamianese" to the Bahamian Creole. Similarly, I have never heard anyone in my life refer to Bahamian English/Bahamian dialect as "Bahamianese". (I would have to disagree with @IslandGirl242 on one point, however, in that I would not refer to it simply as Bahamian.) MmeMaigret (talk) 03:50, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

IslandGirl242, I'm asking that you immediately stop editing and instead please engage in the talk page and describe what changes you wish to make. Wolfdog (talk) 23:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

These articles are obviously not written by a Bahamian. IslandGirl242 (talk) 23:18, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

This is almost certainly true. Still, you're making moves that are odd or unclear, such as piping African-American Vernacular English to the (non-existent) redlink Black-American Vernacular English. Please list any other edits you wish to make (or at least the basic type you wish to make) here so we can reach some consensus. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not continue editing. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. Be careful, so that we avoid something like an edit war or at the very least disruptive editing. Thank you. Wolfdog (talk) 23:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you!!

Thr reason for changing African-American to Black American is because African-American references nationality whereas I believe the subject meant to refer to race.

Thanks again! IslandGirl242 (talk) 23:41, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, this article (looking it over now) suffers from a lack of credible sources, which are key at Wikipedia. Most of the information should simply be deleted. However, maybe you can find a credible online source that backs the changes you wish to make? As for, African-American Vernacular English, that is the (Wikipedia's) name for the dialect we're referring to, which originates from and is mostly spoken by African Americans. Wolfdog (talk) 11:36, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

IslandGirl242: I made a new vowel chart, backed up by two sources. Let me know what you think. Wolfdog (talk) 22:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I propose merging Bahamian Creole and Bahamian English into:

Bahamian Dialect (first preference);
Bahamian English (second preference).

@IslandGirl242, LewisGuile, Wolfdog, Conchstar, Jahamian876242, Aeusoes1, Buaidh, Rhythmnation2004, Lakemirror, Coakley4mical, GreatDarkSpot, CreateBahamas, BahamasHistorian, and ಢೠೊೠಃಈ:

Grateful for your comments below.

- MmeMaigret (talk) 07:41, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

More information Discussion — closed, consensus against merge ...

Discussion — closed, consensus against merge

Oppose I'm not very familiar with specifics in Bahamian language, but the article for Bahamian Creole states clearly that "it has long been assumed that this language is simply a variety of English. However, socio-historical and linguistic research shows that this is not the case and it is, in fact, a creole language, related to but distinct from English as spoken in The Bahamas." This is a question similar to whether the Scots language is a dialect or language. If someone with working knowledge of Bahamian Creole could weigh in on this, that would be great. ಢೠೊೠಃಈ (talk) 05:30, 25 August 2025 (UTC)

I'm not well-versed on the matter, but the Handbook of Varieties of English (2004), Volume 1 has the following to offer about the Bahamas:

There are a number of linguistic and sociolinguistic issues relating to this archipelago. One question concerns the significance of different founder English varieties that range from British and American English dialects to Gullah and other creoles in the African diaspora. Few Caribbean varieties have such a full range of potential English input dialects. Another matter is the past and present relationship between Afro-Bahamian and Anglo-Bahamian varieties (436).

...and...

Although most Bahamians share some characteristic features, a number of structures are sensitive to ethnic, socioeconomic, and geographic factors. In addition, there is a basilectal-acrolectal continuum with respect to creole features that applies primarily to the Afro-Bahamian population; however, this dimension tends to be more relevant to the grammatical description of Bahamian English than to phonology (438).

Volume 2 (about Grammar/Syntax) says

In Ian Hancock’s (1971: 509–525) original survey of pidgin and creole languages, BahE is not included as a creole variety, although he later revised this assessment. While it seems that the general consensus, based on the inclusion of Bahamian English in the work of Holm (1988–1989) and Wells (1982) as well as other publications, is that BahE (or at least AfBahE [Afro-Bahamian English]) is a creole variety, existing somewhere between AAVE and more creolized varieties such as Jamaican Creole (JamC). As Holm (1983: 314) concludes, since “such a great variety of overlapping linguistic features is involved that even within a given community one simply cannot say – except with total arbitrariness – where Gullah leaves off and black English begins”. AfBahE exists somewhere in this range, with some speech communities more clearly creolized (or basilectalized) than others (391-2).

Not very conclusive, but adds a bit to our understanding at least. Wolfdog (talk) 11:26, 22 August 2025 (UTC)

Oppose; the literature indicates they're two different varieties, existing at opposite ends of a creole continuum. Oenbring (2010 and 2015) clearly distinguishes between Bahamian Creole English and Standard Bahamian English; Laube (2022) says "As in other English-speaking Caribbean countries, the linguistic landscape of The Bahamas is characterized by the coexistence of an English-lexifier creole, that is, Bahamian Creole, and a local standardized variety of English." Hackert (2022) also clearly distinguishes between BahC and standard/"educated" BahE, and Hackert and Wengler (2022) say "BahE and JamE constitute the local forms of standard English co-existing with Caribbean English-lexifier creoles in a continuum situation."
There are plenty of sources both for Bahamian English and for Bahamian Creole, so I don't think a merge is necessary from a notability perspective either.
I would also note that "Bahamian Dialect" doesn't appear to be a commonly-used term in the literature (see for instance ngrams). If a merge were to happen (which, again, I don't think it should), "Bahamian Englishes" or "Bahamian English varieties" might be more representative of usage in the sources—although admittedly there isn't much precedent for this kind of title on en-wp (maybe there should be?). Pineapple Storage (talk) 09:07, 23 August 2025 (UTC)
Just because you can refer to Quebecois as Canadian French doesn't mean they are two different things.

You claim there are plethora of sources but have only linked 3. (I note ironically that this contradicts the lead to Bahamian Creole itself, which says Bahamian dialect "suffers from limited research, possibly because it has long been assumed that this language is simply a variety of English".)
Also, you claim that Bahamian Dialect doesn't appear to be the commonly used term in "literature". Where exactly did you search? Was it:
- Google Scholar or
- Google Books
The guidelines for naming a page on Wikipedia favour recognisability, conciseness, naturalness, preciseness, and consistency.
In addition to the "literature", you might consider all spectrum of independent reliable sources, including:
- Google Books
- Caribbean news archives at the University of Florida Digital Collections
- The Tribune
- The Nassau Guardian
- newspapers.com
At each of these databases, Bahamian dialect is the more common term (note also where they are used interchangeably).
-MmeMaigret (talk) 05:32, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
There's a lot to unpack here.
Firstly, I understand that "Bahamian Dialect" is a term that is used to refer to Bahamian Creole, but you're proposing a merge of the two articles, not a move of Bahamian Creole. So, unless you can prove that either Bahamian English or Bahamian Creole isn't notable enough to warrant its own article (or that the two are exactly the same thing), the new title of the merged article would have to be applicable to both Bahamian Creole and Bahamian (Standard) English. The usage in all the sources that use the term "Bahamian Dialect", including the ones in the search-engine search results you linked, indicates that "Bahamian Dialect" exclusively refers to Bahamian Creole, so it isn't a commonly-used term for all Bahamian varieties of English. If the goal is to have a discussion about whether Bahamian Creole should be moved to Bahamian DialectBahamian Dialect, then Requested moves is the best venue for that.
Secondly, in my comment above, I specifically chose a handful of sources that explicitly drew a contrast between Bahamian English and Bahamian Creole; most sources focus on one or the other, so don't feel the need to draw such a contrast. I wasn't attempting to give an exhaustive list of sources proving the existence of both varieties, but since you seem to be casting doubt on the existence of sources, here is a more comprehensive list:
Bahamian Creole/Bahamian Dialect
The grammatical features of TMA auxiliaries in Bahamian Creole (McPhee, 2003)
Oral narrative and tense in urban Bahamian Creole English (Hackert, 2006)
Southern Bahamian: Transported African American Vernacular English or Transported Gullah? (Hackert & Holm, 2009)
Bey or bouy: Orthographic patterns in Bahamian Creole English on the web (Oenbring, 2013)
John Holm and Creole Linguistics (Thomason, 2014; p. 20, which is p. 4 of the PDF)
A Sociophonetic Study of the Urban Bahamian Creole Vowel System (Kraus, 2017)
Bahamian Creole English (Seymour, 2017)
You ain't got principle, you ain't got nothing : Verbal negation in Bahamian Creole (Hackert & Laube, 2018)
"You can't speak Creole in here. English only": Experiences of Stigma and Acts of Resistance among Adults of Haitian Descent in the Bahamas (Perry, 2020; p. 65, which is p. 5 of the PDF)
'Broken English', 'dialect' or 'Bahamianese'? Language attitudes and identity in The Bahamas (Laube & Rothmund, 2022)
Assessing the Language Abilities of Bahamian Creole English–Speaking Children (Moss & Timler, 2024)
Bahamian English/Bahamian Standard English/Standard Bahamian English (Again, whether Bahamian English should be moved to Bahamian Standard English or Standard Bahamian English is a matter for WP:RM.)
Basilectal Features of Bahamian Creole English (Donnelly, 1997) Quote: "They must cope with interference problems arising from their students' mother tongue (Bahamian Dialect) while they are acquiring the school language (Standard Bahamian English)."
Language Education and Bahamian Students' Compositions (Bain, 2005; p. 7, which is p. 4 of the PDF)
Bahamian Standard English: A first approach (Bruckmaier & Hackert, 2011)
Pseudotitles in Bahamian English (Hackert, 2015)
If I Giya Soma Dis Ting You Ga Talk It: An Exploration of the Use of Bahamian Creole and Standard English by Young Bahamians (Fernander, 2023)
Variation in the imperfective in Bahamian English (Laube, 2023)
Plus, the sources already included above:
Corpus Linguistic Studies of Standard Bahamian English: A Comparative Study of Newspaper Usage (Oenbring, 2010)
Tracing the Historical Development of Standard Bahamian English: A First Approach (Oenbring, 2015)
The epicentre model and American influence on Bahamian Englishes (Hackert, 2022)
Recent Grammatical Change in Postcolonial Englishes: A Real-time Study of Genitive Variation in Caribbean and Indian News Writing (Hackert & Wengler, 2022)
Variation in the imperfective in Bahamian English (Laube, 2022)
In my view, this is enough sources to verify the existence (and distinctiveness) of both varieties; as with any creole continuum, there is overlap and ambiguity in the middle of the spectrum, but that does not mean that the two varieties are the same. So, regardless of the titles we give the articles for Bahamian Creole and Bahamian English (discussions that should go to WP:RM), I'm struggling to see the rationale for merging the two articles. As I said above, if a merge were to happen, a more suitable title would be something like "Bahamian English varieties" or "Bahamian varieties of English", to represent the fact that they aren't a single variety. Pineapple Storage (talk) 13:34, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
Bahamian Dialect refers to all Bahamian English on this "spectrum". I'm proposing to merge the pages because they deal essentially with the same thing and because that is what is meant by Bahamian Dialect.

If you compared the pages, you would clearly see that they cover much of the same material. That's because, unlike you having your cute theoretical arguments, the people amending the page - the people who actually speak Bahamian dialect don't make this distinction, other than to differentiate by class and a stronger/less strong accent.

But since you know more about this language that you don't speak, maybe you indicate what the criteria is for distinguishing between the creole and the variation of English, so that editors can easily determine what goes on which page. Maybe you could indicate how may varieties there are on this spectrum. MmeMaigret (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Also, re the list of sources ~~but~~ it doesn't prove whatever you think it's proving.
While you have cherry picked from the article Basilectal Features of Bahamian Creole English (Donnelly, 1997) that article starts by saying "Although Bahamian Dialect appears to be a dialect of English, it is actually more a Creole, though it has de-Creolized over the years."

Not only does it evidence that Bahamian dialect is the name for the creole but also that that "creole" appears to be a dialect of English indicating that this distinction isn't as clear as you seem to think it is.

"If I Giya Soma Dis Ting You Ga Talk It" differentiates between "Bahamian Creole" and "Standard English". Note it does not say Standard "Bahamian" English. The language being acquired by kids in school is a written English that is not spoken. (Kids who go to some private schools can often code switch between Bahamian Dialect and accented Standard English but how much will depend on how much standard English they can recall and how often they code switch.)

The article "You can't speak Creole in here. English only" isn't about Bahamian Dialect at all, but Haitian creole.

So in case I wasn't clear before, I do not care if Bahamian dialect is a creole or not. It's what the language is called. It's like you insisting that a tomato is in fact a fruit so we should maintain two pages - one for tomato fruit and one for tomato vegetable and finding some sources that refer to tomato the fruit and some that refer to tomato the vegetable and arguing with a person who grows tomatoes that they must in fact be different because the "literature" refers to them differently, when you've never seen or tasted, much less grown, one. MmeMaigret (talk) 16:23, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
I'm not claiming to know more about these varieties than anyone who speaks or writes them; I can only base my point of view on the reliable sources that are available. My reading of these sources has told me two things:
Bahamian Dialect (which according to ngrams is most commonly called Bahamian Creole, but you told me that Bahamian Dialect is the name used by speakers, so I'll use that term from now on) is the main spoken language of The Bahamas, and has its own grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, particles, etc. This is the language that the article Bahamian Creole is about; that article might need to be moved to Bahamian DialectBahamian Dialect.
When Standard English is used in The Bahamas (for instance in school, or in official writing, newspapers, etc.), it has uniquely Bahamian features (including influences from Bahamian Dialect) that make it different from British English, American English, Jamaican English, and any other variety of Standard English (Oenbring, 2010). This is the variety of English that the article Bahamian English is about; that article might benefit from a move to a different title such as Bahamian Standard English or Standard Bahamian English.
Now, if either of these points is wrong, please correct me! I fully accept that non-Bahamian linguists get things wrong about Bahamian language, usage, etc. If the variety of English used in newspapers and official documents in the Bahamas is identical to Bahamian Dialect, then of course, a merge is the obvious thing to do. However, the sources that are available (as I've listed above) suggest that this isn't the case.
The quote you picked out from Basilectal Features of Bahamian Creole English (Donnelly, 1997)^[1] shows that Bahamian Dialect is not just a dialect of English, it is its own language variety that is significant enough to warrant having its own article. I think this is something we can all agree on! The quote that I included above^[2] only reinforces this; it shows that there is enough of a difference between Bahamian Dialect and Standard Bahamian English that code-switching is difficult for children whose first language is Bahamian Dialect.
You said above that The language being acquired by kids in school is a written English that is not spoken. Okay, and that's what the article Bahamian English is about: the Standard English variety that's used in The Bahamas. Whether it's spoken or written, it exists, and is taught in schools.
I know that "You can't speak Creole in here. English only" is about Haitian Creole, but as I said above, I was talking specifically about p. 65 (which is p. 5 of the PDF) where it says:
Haitian Creole functions as a marker of stigma because it represents a linguistic and cultural difference between Haitians (who are viewed negatively as a group) and Bahamians (who speak Bahamian Creole English and/or English).
The key bit is Bahamians (who speak Bahamian Creole English and/or English), which draws a distinction between Bahamian Creole and Standard English.
Again, if I'm getting anything wrong here, please let me know, but I think we actually agree on more aspects of this issue than we think we do.
Bahamian Dialect is its own thing. Meanwhile, the written variety of Standard English that is used in The Bahamas is Bahamian English; this variety is sometimes spoken in formal contexts, but this requires Bahamian Dialect speakers to code-switch. No? Pineapple Storage (talk) 17:20, 27 August 2025 (UTC) Pineapple Storage (talk) 17:20, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Bahamas, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Languages, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject English Language. Pineapple Storage (talk) 17:48, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Bahamian Dialect is an oral language. It's has no alphabet. People will try to write it to express what they say orally (eg in a SMS text or when quoting dialogue), like the title above "If I Giya Soma Dis Ting You Ga Talk It". Personally, I would write that "If I guh gih yuh some uh dis ting you guh talk it". ie If I give you some of this thing, you are going to talk it.

But I would also never say that (ie the continuum), I would say "If I tell ya dis, you guh talk it".

Standard English is written. It's just standard English.

Here's an article from today's Tribune, one of the country's two dailies.
https://www.tribune242.com/news/2025/aug/27/foreign-affairs-requests-probe-after-coi-claims-govt-selling-passports-like-candy/

Here's an article from the Guardian, the other
https://www.thenassauguardian.com/news/pm-accuses-fnm-of-plagiarizing-plp-crime-plan/article_63aff7ca-6971-4d7c-90a5-a18cd5af092d.html

Everything on the Bahamian English page is about Bahamian dialect expect possibly pronunciation which is about accent and could be applied to both

Suggest take a look at this page from the television new channel

https://znsbahamas.com/bahamas-history-book/

The page itself is written in Standard English. But suggest also watch the video:

- the first reporter in the studio speaks with a kind of affected accent

- the second reporter in the field has a stronger accent but it speaking fairly Standard English

- the PM is a lawyer also with a more cultivated but different accent from the first reporter

- the Minister's accent is stronger but her words are mostly Standard English

- Curry at 2:18 is really speaking Bahamian dialect. (The reason why it was thought to be a dialect is because it should be fairly intelligible to you as an English speaker. It's not the strongest accent but it's fairly strong.) MmeMaigret (talk) 18:16, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
Actually, I've had another listen. Everything Curry says is standard English but his accent is pure Bahamian dialect. Here's a short youtube reel. MmeMaigret (talk) 18:34, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Standard English isn't just standard English though, because Standard English varies from place to place. Standard British English differs from Standard American English in spelling, grammar, and vocabulary; Standard Bahamian English is different from both British and American varieties. It is its own thing too! Oenbring (2015) is based on corpus studies of written Standard Bahamian English. Page 19 (p. 2 of the PDF) says:
Taken together, a major finding of these two studies is that contemporary SBE [Standard Bahamian English], at least outside the realms of government, officialdom, and education, more often chooses American lexical variants (e.g., truck instead of lorry). In the area of orthography, however, the studies found both British and American spelling regimes to be common in Bahamian newspapers. In fact, one study found that while one of the major mainstream daily newspapers in Nassau, the Nassau Guardian, more consistently uses American spellings, the other major mainstream daily, the Nassau Tribune, more consistently uses British spellings. Moreover, both studies found Bahamian mainstream daily newspapers do not commonly use overtly Bahamian Creole English features, even when presenting direct quotes from eyewitnesses, as has been found to be the case when eyewitnesses are quoted in mainstream newspapers in some other Anglophone Caribbean countries.
I notice that the Tribune article you linked uses "criticising" and "criticised" (traditionally BrE conventions), whereas the Guardian article used "plagiarizing", "programs" and "modernizing" (traditionally AmE conventions), which matches up with Oenbring's results. He also discusses the preference in Standard Bahamian English for the passive voice, for pluralised nouns,^[3] and for more formal vocabulary than is typically used in other varieties, as well as linguistic structures that are shared with Bahamian Creole English. He also highlights (on page 24, which is page 7 of the PDF) a preference for the modal auxiliary verb would over will when discussing probable future events, which is not a feature of American or British Standard English but is a feature that is found in other Caribbean Standard Englishes. All of this is an illustration of the distinctive features of Standard Bahamian English.
Thank you for sending that video, it's really interesting to watch. The next video that was suggested to me was It's Back To School Time With Janea's; the interviewee in that video, Captain James Wallace, is speaking Standard English with a distinctive accent, as described at § Pronunciation. (I also noticed that his shop's website uses "pants" and "jumpers" in the same menu, which is another example of the distinct lexicon of Bahamian English, as it doesn't use the same vocabulary as BrE or AmE, but a unique combination.)
All of this is to say that the Standard English (written and spoken) of The Bahamas is distinct from the Standard English of other countries, and is part of the linguistic diversity of The Bahamas (and the world!). The Bahamian English article may not be very comprehensive at the moment (and there's a conversation to be had about whether or not it should be renamed to Standard Bahamian English/Bahamian Standard English), but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Pineapple Storage (talk) 20:23, 27 August 2025 (UTC) Pineapple Storage (talk) 20:23, 27 August 2025 (UTC)
You really didn't need to send me a video of Wallace because I had already sent you a video with 5 people speaking "Standard English" each with 5 different accents. Also, there's no "Standard" Bahamian English as that would imply a "standard".

MmeMaigret (talk) 12:04, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
For sure, the video you sent was really useful to see a range of accents, but the Wallace video provided a long sample of one person who speaks with an accent that's described in § Pronunciation. And I was also interested to see the vocabulary usage on his website.
I can understand why "Standard" doesn't seem to fit right, because I think (non-Dialect/non-creole) Bahamian English is still in the process of being codified, and the process of documentation has only begun recently so AFAIK there isn't (for instance) a dictionary of (non-creole) Bahamian English yet.
Aside from that, what are your thoughts on the points I mentioned above? Can you see where I'm coming from re Bahamian English being its own variety? Pineapple Storage (talk) 09:22, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

Thanks @Wolfdog, btw I'm simply proposing to combine the pages not to solve the dialect v creole debate. (I would include a section on the matter on a combined page.) MmeMaigret (talk) 05:35, 27 August 2025 (UTC)

Closing note

Closing this merge discussion:

as there is no consensus to merge
in favour of renaming of Bahamian Creole to Bahamian Dialect.

– MmeMaigret (talk) 12:09, 28 August 2025 (UTC)

I think a WP:RM for Bahamian Creole would be a good next step if that's what you want to do @Mmemaigret. I do think it's worth bearing in mind that some sources disagree with labelling the Bahamian Creole as a "Dialect" (because it is its own creole language and deserves to be recognised as such), and that the word "dialect" is sometimes interpreted as a pejorative. Because of this, Bahamian Dialect might be seen as a "non-neutral but common name"; in this case, an equally common but more neutral term, like Bahamian Creole, may be preferred. And, as I mentioned before, according to ngrams, "Bahamian Creole" may actually be the more common term. (Bahamian Dialect could always be included as an alternative name in the first sentence of the article.) Pineapple Storage (talk) 09:44, 29 August 2025 (UTC)

@Pineapple Storage I created the Bahamian dialect page years ago, which was renamed Bahamian Creole by someone (I suspect a lot like you) who decided they knew better. You will note that the language is referred to as Bahamian Dialect throughout the page despite the title. I started this merge proposal because of the confusion caused by having a page that did not reflect actual usage and resulted in the creation of the Bahamian English page, and the resulting overlap between the two pages. As a result of your suggestion that Bahamian English could cover the varieties of English spoken in the Bahamas, I've re-written the Bahamian English page. (That wouldn't have been my first choice but it had merit and would hopefully avoid confusion and overlap in the future.) While you continue to focus on academic sources as the source of truth, those sources are mostly themselves concerned with whether the language is a dialect or a creole, therefore not reflective of actual usage. Also your scanning of sources is not the same as the actual knowledge and learned experience of Bahamians. I have provided evidence of other reliable sources, showing 2-1 in favour of Bahamian dialect and even these cannot reflect actual usage. As User:IslandGirl242 explained (above), 'creole' in the Bahamas is the common term for Haitian Creole spoken in the Bahamas by a substantial immigrant population. Finally, since you acknowledge the language exists on a continuum, the common name used in actual practice seems preferable to an academic term that may also mischaracterise parts of that continuum. I have already proposed the name change on the Bahamian Creole talk page. I look forward to your objection.

MmeMaigret (talk) 06:19, 30 August 2025 (UTC)

References

[1]
"Although Bahamian Dialect appears to be a dialect of English, it is actually more a Creole, though it has de-Creolized over the years."
[2]
"They must cope with interference problems arising from their students' mother tongue (Bahamian Dialect) while they are acquiring the school language (Standard Bahamian English)."
[3]
For instance, persons rather than people, eg. Older Persons and Older Persons Month, several uses in this government statement, and once in this video at 00:26.

Bahamian Dialect

Lead

@Wolfdog: You have been editing this page about a language that you admit to not being familiar about for 5 years now. Most of your edits introducing new material are unsourced, including edits to pronunciation. However, the edit history shows that you only started adding an extra line to the lead (which I note was relatively stable for 5 years) in October after an agreement was reached not to merge this page with the Bahamian Creole page and to leave it to cover the varieties of Bahamian English.

More information Date, Wording ...


Date	Wording	Editor
	Bahamian English is a variety of English spoken in the Bahamas and by members of the Bahamian diaspora
15:40, 31 May 2020	Bahamian English refers to varieties of English spoken in the Bahamas and by members of the Bahamian diaspora	Wolfdog
22:54, 09 October 2024	Bahamian English is English spoken in The Bahamas and by the Bahamian people.	Wolfdog
12:07, 30 August 2025	Bahamian English is the set of varieties of the English language spoken in the Bahamas	Wolfdog
11:58, 31 August 2025	Bahamian English is the set of varieties of the English language native to the the Bahamas	Wolfdog
19:18, 13 October 2025	Bahamian English is the set of varieties of the English language native to the Bahamas, existing along a continuum with the Bahamas' local creole dialect.	Wolfdog
19 October 2025	2nd ANI

Your reintroduction of that and similar wording continue to be unsourced. The sources that you borrowed overnight do not support claim because your claim is wrong. MmeMaigret (talk) 14:26, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

You and I continue to battle this out. Can you please describe exactly and precisely what is not sourced, or what your contention is? I literally added the sources this time (repeating them from the body of the text). I've tried to edit to meet you halfway across the months. I even added "in some cases" to the lede in the hopes this would appease you. You and I both agree there are English and there are creole varieties native to the Bahamas. You and I both agree there are multiple such varieties, distinguished by social factors including race, education, status, etc. You and I both agree there is a complicated spectrum or intersection, right? As you've been told in the past, my level of expertise is irrelevant. WP is about consensus. I'm happy to come to one. Please provide your exact qualms, and hopefully we can finally, finally reach one. Thank you for reaching out. Wolfdog (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

Your expertise is entirely relevant. (1) WP Is about facts and sources. If someone add unsourced information but it is correct then we only have to find sources. (2) In my opinion, it is your knowledge of other creoles that creates some of these issues. (2) WP is not about consensus per se because we cannot agree to display information that is wrong. Also, I'd be happy for us to delete information that we don't agree on. But I'd also be happy to delete both this page and Bahamian creole page rather than have information that is incorrect. Particularly in this day and age, when AI ingests everything we publish. MmeMaigret (talk) 03:48, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

You and I both agree there are English and there are creole varieties native to the Bahamas."

No we don't. First, English isn't native to the Bahamas. It is spoken by most Bahamians with a Bahamian accent, by some Bahamians without, by non-Bahamians without. This is based mainly on class and education.

Then there is Bahamian dialect, which has elements of a English dialect and a English creole. You say it's a post-creole continuum but that's debatable. Most native-born Bahamians can speak Bahamian dialect including white Bahamians. How much they do depends on class and education. Shilling one of the first academics to suggest that Bahamian dialect may be a creole was an American, in the 1970s, shortly after the country got universal suffrage and majority rule after years of being dominated by a white elite.

When Shilling first began her research, she assumed there were differences based on race but that has been pointed out that she only viewed certain communities and didn't consider communities on other islands. Even her descriptions of Bahamians as Anglo and Afro-Bahamians is old fashioned and misleading.

Bahamian dialect

Bahamian dialect, whether you think it's a dialect or a creole is still a English dialect or creole.

Academics suggest is that English spoken in the Bahamas was creolised by the introduction of Loyalist slaves. Was that standard English, an English dialect, or another English creole?

But does it even meet the definition of a creole.

A creole language, or simply creole, is a stable form of contact language that develops from the process of different languages simplifying and mixing into a new form (often a pidgin), and then that form expanding and elaborating into a full-fledged language with native speakers, all within a fairly brief period. While the concept is similar to that of a mixed or hybrid language, creoles are often characterized by a tendency to systematize their inherited grammar (e.g., by eliminating irregularities). Like any language, creoles are characterized by a consistent system of grammar, possess large stable vocabularies, and are acquired by children as their native language.

It is theorised that what was creolised was then decreolised. We don't even know if a stable form ever developed. Which languages did it develop from. It is a full-fledged language? or just Gullah?

When academics say Bahamians are gifted code switchers, they're admitting that the grammar is in fact not systemised. Because upper middle class Bahamians code switch between Bahamian dialect and English but most other Bahamians code switch between degrees of Bahamian dialect, while upper class Bahamians don't code switch at alls, speaking just English

So yes, it's complicated and I'd like the page to reflect that complexity.

MmeMaigret (talk) 02:41, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

To attempt to provide sourcing for the extra line in the lead (as you've requested), let me remind you that the page already has sourced saying "The assumption that Afro-Bahamian English is monolithic is, in fact, false, but continues to this day despite the fact that Albury (1981), in a Master's thesis, found variation of simple past marking within Afro-Bahamian, differentiating four distinct groups of speakers: basilectal, mid-mesolectal, upper-mesolectal, and acrolectal. The assumption that Afro-Bahamian is monolithic is further complicated by the fact that there are few clear ethnic boundaries" and "Within The Bahamas there exists a language continuum ranging from the basilectal through mesolectal to acrolectal, each variety impacting on the others." Isn't this sufficient proof that Bahamian English sometimes exists on a creole continuum? Wolfdog (talk) 22:24, 9 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog This page isn't about Bahamian dialect, it's about Bahamian English. MmeMaigret (talk) 05:15, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

But I'd really like you to take on board what Schreier et al said:

there is no monolithic Afro-Bahamian English, ie Shillings labels of Anglo and Afro Bahamian were misleading
black Bahamians speak all range of English in the Bahamas: basilectal, mid-mesolectal, upper-mesolectal, and acrolectal. In particular, they speak acrolectal form of English just like white Bahamians
there are few clear ethnic boundaries in the Bahamas.

MmeMaigret (talk) 05:17, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

(Also, all my edits to pronunciation are indeed cited. Check again. Wolfdog (talk) 23:10, 9 February 2026 (UTC))

You've made four changes to pronunciation and none of these appear to have been sourced but I stand to be corrected:

MmeMaigret (talk) 05:28, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

1. The bullets you've provided are just affirming my points. A creole continuum means that a collection of language varieties exist on a spectrum between a "pure" creole (the basilect) and a dominant lexifier language (substratum in some analyses; the acrolect: in this case, very clearly English). Your second bullet in particular is exactly saying this.

2. The pronunciation citations are the Wells source and the Childs & Wolfram source. It's all there. Wolfdog (talk) 12:18, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog Just to recap, you wrote:

"Bahamian English is the set of varieties of the English language native to the Bahamas, existing along a continuum with the Bahamas' local creole dialect."

(1) What do you think "Bahamian English" (ie the English native to the Bahamas) is?

(2) What's the creole dialect [sic] a dialect of? MmeMaigret (talk) 13:53, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

1) There are two meanings of the word native. In the meaning you're implying, native is "indigenous, or having a multi-thousand-year history in one location." However, native in linguistic terms can also simply mean "the first language of the people of an area: L1". It's hard for me to not feel like you're willfully playing dumb here. If you want me to change that one word, you can just say so and offer a better alternative that is less ambiguous. Happy to change that. But it's undeniable that there are native English speakers in the Bahamas in 2026. 2) Dialect is not a technically well-defined term and simply means a way of speaking. If you prefer to take a stand and replace that with "language", that's fine. If you prefer to be even more cautious, you can say "variety" or "language variety". Are we finally reaching some sort of agreement? I do in fact appreciate that we're now having a conversation. Wolfdog (talk) 14:37, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog You didn't actually answer my question.

(1) What do you think "Bahamian English" (using your words, the first language of people of the Bahamas is)?

(2) What do you think "Bahamian Creole" "Bahamian dialect" "Bahamian Creole English" or simply "Bahamian" is?

(3) More importantly, what do you think is the difference? MmeMaigret (talk) 22:12, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Well I thought I did, assuming your problem was with the word "native" (since you bolded that word above and since you verbatim said English isn't native to the Bahamas). If that isn't your contention, I'm not sure what it is. Are you asking me because of genuine interest in my answer or because you're trying to make some rhetorical point? If the latter, please just make your point.

Bahamian English is the first language of some people of the Bahamas, yes certainly.

I think these topics (Bahamian English and Creole) are best defined as the very lede sentences that I've endorsed on the WP pages.

What do I think the difference is? Bahamian English is any of the dialects of English native (or if you prefer, that have developed over the last few centuries) in the Bahamas. Bahamian Creole is a language native to the Bahamas that developed with English as its dominant lexifier, while blending features from other languages and developing some of its own entirely unique features in grammar, word usage, phonology, etc. Like many situations of creolization, English and Bahamian Creole are now interlinked in a creole continuum, with plenty of diversity. Are your questions answered? Wolfdog (talk) 02:54, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

You have no idea what you are talking about. MmeMaigret (talk) 08:31, 12 February 2026 (UTC)

3O possibility

In my opinion, the content dispute in this section qualifies for the WP:Third opinion method of dispute resolution. If you both are agreeable to doing so, may I suggest one or both of you apply for 3O at the link? (Just to be clear, I am not proposing myself as the third party, and would not agree to be drafted; this is solely a good-faith attempt to encourage you to find some path so that this discussion can move forward amicably toward a consensus.) Pinging editors @Mmemaigret and Wolfdog:. Other methods of dispute resolution are of course available. Good luck! Mathglot (talk) 03:53, 14 February 2026 (UTC)

Mathglot I would tend to agree, however, there is a currently an ANI afoot. MmeMaigret (talk) 04:16, 14 February 2026 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware, but by definition, ANI is about behavioral issues and WP:3O is about article content issues, so ideally they are completely disjoint. You are completely free, imho, to engage with 3O if you wish to, and I think it would be beneficial to the article, and calm passions here a bit, if there is mutual agreement to try it. Mathglot (talk) 04:37, 14 February 2026 (UTC)

Understood. I'll consider it in a couple of days when I have time. Thanks for the suggestion. MmeMaigret (talk) 11:10, 14 February 2026 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea what the content dispute is. I feel that either 1) Mmemaigret's good-faith contentions have been answered (not to her liking, clearly); or 2) that there are no actual contentions but rather bad faith. Either way, I'd be happy to collaborate with a third party. MmeMaigret would have to clarify her contentions there. Wolfdog (talk) 17:13, 14 February 2026 (UTC)

Okay, that's one vote in favor. There's no rush, so if MM is okay with it, I could initiate the 3-O request as a neutral, uninvolved facilitator, or either of you could. Once a 3-O person steps in, I would step out, and let it take its course. Good luck. Mathglot (talk) 19:17, 14 February 2026 (UTC)

Third opinion

A third opinion discussion can begin here. Thanks. Wolfdog (talk) 00:53, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

RESPONSE TO THIRD OPINION REQUEST

Wolfdog and MmeMaigret; Before rendering an opinion, I always prefer to ask participants to distill their best arguments into a single paragraph; it also serves as an opportunity to include any last-minute arguments that you may have thought of. Thanks! MWFwiki (talk) 02:13, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki Thanks for agreeing to provide a third opinion. The dispute concerns the lead sentence.

This article is about Bahamian English - the varieties of English in the Bahamas. The article contains two substantive sections: High Register/Standard Bahamian English and Bahamian Dialect.

Wolfdog changed the first sentence of the lead "Bahamian English is the set of varieties of the English language native to the Bahamas" by appending the words "existing along a continuum with the Bahamas' local creole dialect" framing Bahamian Dialect/Bahamian Creole English as distinct from the varieties of Bahamian English. Later, he confirmed that he thinks Bahamian Dialect/Bahamian Creole English to be "its own language with English as a lexifier", not a variety of English.

If Bahamian Dialect is not English, it doesn't belong on a page about English varieties. But he didn't restructure the page or remove the Bahamian Dialect section. Sources are also not as categorical as he is about Bahamian Dialect's status as a creole.^{[M 1]}^{[M 2]}^{[M 3]}

MmeMaigret (talk) 10:19, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

So, as usual, I'm confused by the contention. You are concerned that appending the words "existing along a continuum with the Bahamas' local creole dialect" is framing Bahamian Dialect/Bahamian Creole English as distinct from the varieties of Bahamian English. But doesn't my appendage actually frame BE and BCE as co-existing and bleeding together, rather than being in any objective or clearcut way distinct, since I specifically describe them as existing along a continuum? If anything, I'm affirming that the two language varieties are deeply and inextricably tied in the Bahamas! Perhaps you're thinking I'm taking more of a stance on something than I really am (which feels very implied by your term "categorical")? My only position, which I feel like you're actually agreeing with, is that Bahamian English and Bahamian Creole are indeed not entirely distinct. Doesn't your 2nd source affirm this by saying "Bahamian features I have examined could place BBD [Black Bahamian Dialect] on a continuum with both Black English and Caribbean Creoles" (i.e. a continuum with both English dialects and with creole language varieties)? Wolfdog (talk) 22:04, 18 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki Wolfdog's response reinforces the problem for me. He frames Bahamian English and Bahamian Dialect (aka Bahamian Creole English) as two distinct things that "co-exist" and are "tied together" - using language that requires them to be separate entities. But the article treats Bahamian Dialect as one of the varieties that make up Bahamian English, not something existing "with" it.

He also describes Bahamian English and Bahamian Creole as "two language varieties" but the lead sentence refers to Bahamian English as a "set of varieties" - plural. If Bahamian Dialect is one of those varieties (as the structure of the article indicates), it cannot also be a separate thing existing "with" Bahamian English.

Finally, while he suggests Shilling supports his framing: (i) she defines "Black English" at the beginning of her article as US Black English, ie Afro-American English and (ii) the Bahamas in not in the Caribbean. She's saying Bahamian Dialect sits somewhere between AAVE, a dialect, and Caribbean creoles. MmeMaigret (talk) 12:55, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

ARBITRARY BREAK

Okay, @Mmemaigret and @Wolfdog; Without getting too deep into this dispute yet, I'd like to address the lead. @Wolfdog, I understand what you are trying to say (or at least what you are getting-at), but there are multiple policies that need to be considered. We are getting awful close to WP:WEASEL (words) with some of your lead changes. Also, as an outsider with little to no knowledge of linguistics, much less this particular subject, your suggested alterations to the lead do nothing to help my understanding of the subject. Further, I'm not convinced that the sources utilized in this diff (Schreier, Trudgill, Schneider, & Williams 2010 and Schreier 2010) support the addition to the first sentence. We are also getting extremely close to WP:SYNTHESIS. If you have a source that states that BE "exists along a continuum" then we should use it... but even then, it may require explanation. Again, I really don't know what that means. I think I know what it means, but I'm not positive.

All of that being said, if you wished to proffer some alternative additions for the lead, Wolfdog, I'd be willing to consider them. I was toying-around with a few ideas, but I don't think I understand the subject enough to offer-up anything without sounding ignorant. The best I came up with was:

"Bahamian English are the set of varieties of the English language native to the Bahamas. Speakers are considered to constitute the majority of the population of The Bahamas.^[1]"— We also have to ask "is this information going to help in introducing and understanding the topic for someone totally foreign to this subject?" I think the first part of the lead could possibly be slightly expanded, but I'm not against keeping it as-is if we can't all achieve some form of consensus, at least two of us for the time being.

Lastly... the sort of underlying argument, here, is likely too complex to be sorted-out by a simple 3-O volunteer with little linguistic knowledge. The underlying argument may be more suitable for an RfC at the language project. I am still willing to work with the both of you in the meantime, but I don't think it's fair for me to sort of unilaterally declare what is or is not a language, if that makes any sense — MWFwiki (talk) 21:22, 19 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki I appreciate your willingness to help. Wolfdog has said Bahamian Dialect's status as a language is not the issue but that seems to be much of the focus of his response.

The Bahamas is a large archipelago, north to south slightly less than the distance from Puerto Rico to Trinidad, with islands that were settled at different times. The existence of basilectal, mesolectal, and acrolectal forms in the country shows that there is variation, but it does is not mean there is a "post-creole" continuum, particularly when sources say no consensus exists as to Bahamian Dialect's creole status.^{[M 1]}

Those terms describe distance from the standard and relative prestige. A language continuum suggests stable varieties but there is no evidence of that and scholars have noted that Bahamians are skilled code shifters. Wolfdog is certain about a patois that academics are still researching.^{[M 4]}^{[M 5]} MmeMaigret (talk) 14:14, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to be more convincing, when multiple sources literally use the term "continuum". (I admit I misinterpreted the 1980 Shilling source though which does in fact seem to be using continuum in a more generic, non-technical way.) Perhaps we do in fact need a creolist to comment on this. To push back: what is your evidence that a A language continuum suggests stable varieties? Where's your definition for that? I never intended to argue about the stability of any particular variety. But that there's a collection of creole and non-creole English varieties is undeniable (however rough and imperfect the term "continuum" might be, which I and any linguist would admit). Is there any way for you to agree to bringing Bahamian Creole into the lead section of Bahamian English, since the relationship is inextricable? We could even say that the two may refer to the same thing in many cases. But moving forward I still worry that Mme and I will be fighting over some other detail of the page in a month or two. This is our pattern. Are there any remaining contentions? Do you still not believe my pronunciation citations, for instance? Wolfdog (talk) 15:58, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog @MWFwiki Regarding the use of the terms basilect, mesolect, and acrolect, suggest note Schreier at p. 101:

Even recent overviews of Bahamian have been more inclusive of variation in Bahamian both in terms of phonology (Childs and Wolfram 2005) and morphosyntax (Reaser and Torbert 2005); however, even these treatments lament the need to condense linguistic variation in the Bahamas into three oversimplified groupings: white, basilectal Afro-Bahamian, and mesolectal Afro-Bahamian. The present overview, likewise, condenses language variation in the Bahamas into imperfect groupings for two reasons: space constraints would not permit a complete description and the scholarship on Bahamian English is still relatively sparse."

- MmeMaigret (talk) 12:55, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

I fully agree. All descriptions of language varieties are useful but imperfect overgeneralizations. Maybe I can take a new approach: because (like you, I believe) I'm conscientious of the close relationship, identity, overlap, etc. of what WP and some scholars call BE and BC, I think it's important to have piping to Bahamian Creole somewhere in the lead section of Bahamian English. Those may help guide certain readers to a more appropriate topic. Do you have any suggestions for the best way to accomplish that? Or are you fully opposed to any mention of the former in the latter's lead section? Wolfdog (talk) 14:39, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

Actually, I'm also not trying to declare unilaterally what is or is not a language, but it seems that Mme is concerned that I am. On WP, as it stands, there are two separate articles: Bahamian English and Bahamian Creole. So I'm just trying to work within those two topics that the community has separated. To Mme: my using language that requires them to be separate entities is only based on that... and nothing else. It's merely a convention. One that people long before me established. For MWF: creole languages often lie on a creole continuum: a spectrum of numerous related language varieties, very often ranging between a European language at one end that holds the social prestige due to sociohistorical factors like imperialism and a more innovative creole language at the other end that is more widely used locally but often stigmatized and even self-stigmatized by its users). COUNTLESS varieties can intersect along that spectrum (and in fact COUNTLESS dialects or sub-varieties exist inside even just one language). Language is not a hard-and-fast, cut-and-dry thing. So to Mme's contention: yes, for convenience on a talk page, I talked about the "two language varieties" that WP has delineated (BE and BC) that I assumed would be quite obvious to my reader in a discussion on these exact two entities, while in the public-facing lede sentence I may more formally acknowledge there is a whole "set of varieties" that can fall under BE. This is not a contradiction. Linguists arbitrarily lump and split languages/dialects/varieties based on any number of useful reasons.

Mme: I nearly forgot that you created a Merger Proposal above a fair while back for "Bahamian dialect" (a genuine option). I think the fact I didn't vote in it, yet was clearly aware of it at the time, might help convince you that I have no ax to grind. Either way, though, isn't this still considered by linguists to constitute a creole continuum?

I'm desperately going to attempt to keep this next portion as brief as I can (and sorry that I'm failing):

The Donnelly source says Although Bahamian Dialect appears to be a dialect of English, it is actually more a Creole, though it has de-Creolized over the years. Its overall grammar is systematically different from that of Standard English and yet the two share many of the same features. This serves to enhance the illusion that the two are different dialects of the same language. Here we have a splitter, arguing BE and BC are not the same thing, which is very roughly the stance I was taking merely because WP has framed the two varieties that way. MWF: you are not convinced by my sources in the diff show BE and BC to be on a continuum. So here's that evidence:

Evidence for the "continuum" label

The Schreier source says The assumption that Afro-Bahamian English is monolithic is, in fact, false, but continues to this day despite the fact that Albury (1981), in a Master's thesis, found variation of simple past marking within Afro-Bahamian, differentiating four distinct groups of speakers: basilectal, mid-mesolectal, upper-mesolectal, and acrolectal. These terms (basilect, mesolect, and acrolect) ARE creole continuum terms; just look at that page, where indeed they're defined! Voilà: a continuum. Donnelly again: Within The Bahamas there exists a language continuum ranging from the basilectal through mesolectal to acrolectal, each variety impacting on the others. A good many Bahamians speak a more mesolectal variety (which is still referred to as Bahamian dialect) but there remain a large number of basilectal speakers. The basilect is quite distinct from the acrolect and contains most of the same features that are attributed to many of the other English-based creoles of the Caribbean. So: I am supported here in describing a continuum and acknowledging that (in the clear context of the rest of this article) English is the acrolect, while an English-based creole exists on the other end. Donnelly even contains a useful glossary at the end of the paper: Creole continuum - in countries where creole languages co-exist with their European lexical-source language as the official medium, a spectrum of speech varieties ranging from those farthest from the standard (basilect) to those closest (acrolect). Shilling's PhD dissertations says she will describe grammatical features' distribution in the basilect and their gradual modification through the continuum towards SE [Standard English]. Childs & Wolfram: there is a basilectal-acrolectal continuum with respect to creole features that applies primarily to the Afro-Bahamian population; however, this dimension tends to be more relevant to the grammatical description of Bahamian English than to phonology. I feel a bit like I'm arguing the sky is blue here. Wolfdog (talk) 01:17, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog @MmeMaigret; I haven't forgotten about either of you. I'm just involved in another 3-O that has now gone to DRN, but I will review your additional comments and evidence tonight. Thanks for your patience! MWFwiki (talk) 21:09, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

Thanks MWFwiki: Just to clarify, I did see and I agree your point about what would best help readers coming to this page (a)fresh. I'm open to discussing wording for the lead including your suggestion above. MmeMaigret (talk) 23:36, 20 February 2026 (UTC)

@Mmemaigret & @Wolfdog — thanks for your patience. So, firstly, I think Wolfdog has the sourcing for something, but that it probably belongs in the body. My concern is that we may be getting too jargon-y for the lead. Again, it does nothing for my understanding of the article. As an outsider, "continuum" means nothing to me in this context; I can make some inferences, but we shouldn't assume all readers may make them. I suppose if we Wikilink to dialect continuum it makes more sense, as an interested party can merely go read that article (though that article has some pretty serious issues, itself). I'd be willing to see some proposals for additions to the lead, Wolfdog, at the very least.

Otherwise, as I said, I'm afraid this is too complex of a topic for me alone to "solve." If we cannot achieve some form of consensus I think a formal RfC would be the next best step (while it is up to either of you to take this to DRN, I would advise against it, as you're essentially just invoking a slightly more formal 3-O process and you're just going to get another uninvolved editor to opine on this, and they may feel the same way as I do). I'm not giving-up on this just yet, I'm just advising you of what I think the next steps are if we can't achieve either consensus or compromise. MWFwiki (talk) 23:05, 21 February 2026 (UTC)

Thanks MWFwiki. I think RfC/DRN may just be kicking the can down the road and I'm happy to persevere for now. Happy to propose a change to the lead. Will add something here within the next couple hours. Cheers MmeMaigret (talk) 07:48, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki, Wolfdog. See below lead proposal:

Bahamian English are the varieties of English native to the Bahamas. English is the country's official language. Bahamian Dialect is the vernacular English of the Bahamas, spoken by the majority of the population. Standard Bahamian English is the language of the professional class, used in the media and business and also the target written language in compulsory education.

Bahamian Dialect is mutually intelligible with standard English. Bahamian Dialect is thought to have been heavily influenced by 18th century Gullah and African-American Vernacular English, which were themselves influenced by West African languages. [Bahamian Dialect is so called because it was originally thought to be a simple English dialect until the 1970s. Academic research is still limited and incomplete, and it is not yet clear whether Bahamian Dialect is best described as a part of a linguistic continuum, a post-creole continuum, or an English-based dialect mixture.]

Bahamian Dialect has its own phonology; its pronunciation can be more marked depending on social registers and use in social situations. In addition, inhabitants of the Out Islands are perceived by Bahamians in the capital as having stronger, or broader, accents. Bahamian Dialect has its own unique words and idioms, and differs from standard English grammar in its use of pronouns, irregular verbs and auxiliary verbs in compound tenses. The Bahamian accent is audibly similar to Gullah reflecting historical linkages. Bahamian Dialect has no recognised written form.

Standard Bahamian English differs from other varieties in terms of pronunciation, some vocabulary and idiomatic expressions. Standard Bahamian English tends to follow British English spelling conventions. However, the Bahamas' proximity to the United States, together with the fact that most Bahamians pursue tertiary education in the United States, also results in some use of American English spellings. MmeMaigret (talk) 11:27, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

So where's the most suitable place to pipe to Bahamian Creole in all this? Wolfdog (talk) 20:26, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

This is a bit lengthy for a lead. We just need to mention things talked-about in the body, we don't need to necessarily explain them in such detail. Since the Bahamian dialect/Bahamian Creole is discussed in the body, it would not be inappropriate for it to have a mention in the lead. So, I'll make it easy for you two, @Mmemaigret & @Wolfdog: Can we get a lead that at least mentions BD/BC and its relationship to "Bahamian English" in plain English (no pun intended)? As an outsider, that is my first question upon reaching the first section of this article — MWFwiki (talk) 22:17, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki @Wolfdog:

Bahamian English is the English spoken in the Bahamas. English is the country's official language. Most Bahamians speak Bahamian Dialect in everyday life, while Standard Bahamian English is used in schools, media, business, and professional settings.

MmeMaigret (talk) 23:06, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

1. Ok, and we would just pipe "Bahamian dialect" to "Bahamian Creole"? 2. Do we need a 3rd opinion on the capitalization or not of the word dialect as well? Wolfdog (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2026 (UTC)

1. Yeah, that's where it currently goes, so, that's what it should Wikilink to.

2. Not currently. Bahamian dialect utilizes lowercase in its own article, any discussion of changing it should take-place on its own page; While normally local consensus stays local, I think in this case and for consistency's sake we should keep it lowercase. Just quick cursory glance at sourcing (Google Books & Google News) show that 70-80% of sources current utilize "Bahamian dialect". For consistency's sake and per ONUS, I think it should remain "dialect"; I'm not against capitalizing it, and there may be some arguments for it, but that should, as I mentioned, take-place on the relevant Talk page as an RM.

Do you have any proposals for the lead? What do you think of @Mmemaigret's suggestion above, for the first paragraph of the lead? MWFwiki (talk) 01:47, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

I've been historically against capitalizing as well for similar reasons. I largely agree with the lead section changes with the following exceptions italicized:

Bahamian English is the (or is the set of) varieties of English native to the Bahamas. English is the country's official language. Bahamian dialect is the vernacular speech of the Bahamas, spoken by the majority of the population, while standard Bahamian English is the language of the professional class, used in the media and business and also the target written language in compulsory education.

Again, I don't want Mme to think I'm taking some definite stance on the creole/English question, but rather I'm trying to avoid the contention altogether (which is no easy matter). Wolfdog (talk) 02:31, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki cc Wolfdog I can accept those changes if standard is capitalised. While revising the lead, I noted two references to "post-creole continuum" in the first section - one unsourced and one cites two sources but neither of the sources mention "post-creole continuum". Since we've discussed synthesis during this process, can we address these too? Or would you prefer we resolve that separately? MmeMaigret (talk) 03:12, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

I'm happy to approve your capitalization of "standard." But, yeah, let's take the continuum issue separately. If it's as easy as a simple wording, I would more easily bend (for instance, instead of a "continuum of varieties," if you prefer "a closely related range/collection/spectrum/pool/etc. of varieties"). Wolfdog (talk) 03:43, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki, Wolfdog:

Suggest replacing "covering a spectrum of varieties ranging from an English-based creole language on one end to non-standard local English (often with creole elements) on the other end" with "shows regional and socio-economic variation, reflecting complex patterns of language contact"
In "a more complex set of varieties along a post-creole continuum", suggest replace "post-creole" with "linguistic" or "language".

MmeMaigret (talk) 09:34, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

I'm happy with the latter suggestion. With the former, I think bringing up the term Creole is pretty important. It's attested in many sources. If you wish to discuss briefly the difficulty of the term as well on the page, I'm all ears. Wolfdog (talk) 14:11, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

@Mmemaigret and @Wolfdog I have the aftermath of a blizzard to shovel out of, but I will let you know what I think tonight. Although if you two believe you can come to a consensus together, feel free to continue on. Otherwise, I'll look everything over in a few hours MWFwiki (talk) 20:32, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki Totally understand and thanks for letting us know. We've made some progress and we may be close to a consensus but it would good if you could weigh in if we get stcuk. MmeMaigret (talk) 21:29, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog: MWFwiki ~~Ok, suggest replace the sentence with:~~

"Bahamian Dialect contains regional and socio-economic variation and shows complex patterns of language contact of the Gullah creole, the semi-creole AAVE and other English dialects that were [previously] present in the islands.

~~ie, evidence of contact and convergence but no academic consensus of creolisation.~~ MmeMaigret (talk) 21:43, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog, MWFwiki: Can we replace:

Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians, covering a spectrum of varieties ranging from an English-based creole language on one end to non-standard local English (often with creole elements) on the other end. Additionally, regional, racial, and socioeconomic markers and differentiations exist along the spectrum, plus British and American influences have given rise to more standard dialects of Bahamian English.

with:

Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians, which shows complex patterns of language contact of the Gullah creole, the semi-creole AAVE and other English dialects. Additionally, regional, ethnic, and socioeconomic markers and differentiations exist in the country.

MmeMaigret (talk) 08:24, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

ARBITRARY BREAK

MmeMaigret & Wolfdog — I feel we are close to a solution but I guess I'm not sure what we're replacing/substituting. Can you each provide a full version of the lead you'd be comfortable with? The entire lead, not just the first paragraph. And I will do my best to compromise between the two. I understand that you have both agreed to some things with each other already, but I'm not 100% following. MWFwiki (talk) 02:01, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki Lead: I thought you asked for a proposal for the lead and drafted an entirely new lead, but you reverted and asked only for a new opening paragraph. I drafted a new opening paragraph but Wolfdog indicated that he was happy with the opening para from the new draft lead. We agreed on that new opening paragraph subject to a few minor changes.

Supplementary: We're now discussing two sentences in the body with similar references to a creole language and a post-creole continuum. Wolfdog has indicated that he's happy to change the latter to "linguistic" or "language" continuum. So we're just discussing the following paragraph:

covering a spectrum of varieties ranging from an English-based creole language on one end to non-standard local English (often with creole elements) on the other end.

Although, I've realised that whole paragraph is problematic including the last fragment, which isn't historically accurate. So we're discussing:

Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians, covering a spectrum of varieties ranging from an English-based creole language on one end to non-standard local English (often with creole elements) on the other end. Additionally, regional, racial, and socioeconomic markers and differentiations exist along the spectrum,.plus British and American influences have given rise to more standard dialects of Bahamian English.

@Wolfdog might confirm if that's his understanding of where we're up to. MmeMaigret (talk) 07:42, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

I just wanted to make sure precisely what sentences we wanted to/didn't want to change. I'll await Wolfdog. MWFwiki (talk) 07:59, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

So, just a recap on Mme's suggestion:

Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians, which shows complex patterns of language contact of the Gullah creole, the semi-creole AAVE and other English dialects. Additionally, regional, ethnic, and socioeconomic markers and differentiations exist in the country.

I feel this may be skirting around the creole issue when we could just hit it head-on (while I'm also up for acknowledging its disputedness/unresolvedness). But the sources aren't as totally tiptoeing about the creole label. Oenbring straightup says "Despite that fact most Bahamians refer to their mother tongue as Bahamian Dialect, linguists prefer to use the term Bahamian Creole English". Donnelly similarly uses the term "Bahamian Creole English" and Hackett "Bahamian Creole". McPhee cautions that Bahamians "easily code switch from one variety to another, without realizing that they are actually using two different language systems". On the other page, Laube says "Bahamian Creole" and Moss "Bahamian Creole English". Some of these sources are taking a pretty definite side. So, at the very least I think we can say something to the effect of "Bahamian dialect's classification as a dialect of English or a distinct creole (or former creole) language of its own is a matter of ongoing linguistic debate". Any number of other wordings could be used/tweaked. [I also find it opening a whole new can of words on this page (which otherwise refers to Black American English/AAE/AAVE only two times) to declare AAVE a "semi-creole". That similarly is a hotly debated issue in linguistics.] I appreciate the civil discussion we've been having. Thanks, both. Wolfdog (talk) 16:25, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki @Wolfdog The Bahamas is an archipelago with different islands settled at different times where different combinations of English dialects and creoles came into contact. If English dialects and English creoles came in contact, the result(s) would obviously have creole elements - that's how language contact works. But that doesn't mean the result was itself was 'a new creole' - a new distinct language. This is why sources say "no consensus exists" on creole status and why "linguists continue to describe the vernacular speech of the Bahamas".

Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians, which shows complex patterns of language contact of numerous English dialects and English creoles.^{[M 3]}^{[M 6]} Additionally, regional, ethnic, and socioeconomic markers and differentiations exist in the country.

- MmeMaigret (talk) 22:17, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

Fair points. We both have sourced claims. Maybe MWF can help make a determination. Wolfdog (talk) 23:00, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

@Mmemaigret so, if we have sources that explicitly say that no consensus exists, can't we add that? Frankly, per WP:BALANCE, I'm not seeing much reason to prefer one source over another, if you're both following me? MWFwiki (talk) 23:38, 24 February 2026 (UTC)

@MWFwiki, @Wolfdog This isn't a WP:BALANCE situation where both sides have equal sourcing. No consensus is a summary of the state of scholarship itself. The fact that there is no academic consensus can't be "balanced" against some scholars using a certain terminology.

Also what would we be balancing anyway, the current unsourced sentence says:

is the first oral language of most Bahamians, covering a spectrum of varieties ranging from an English-based creole language on one end to non-standard local English (often with creole elements) on the other end.

Not only are these both synthesised phrases. What is the balance to be had, when we fundamentally disagree on the basilectal elements of Bahamian Dialect definitively being a creole language?

There is also a clear pattern here: you asked for initial arguments, Wolfdog addressed me directly. You asked for lead proposals, particularly from him - he provided none. I've drafted every proposal, only for Wolfdog to object without offering alternatives. MmeMaigret (talk) 02:17, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

The balance I was referring to are the sources the Wolfdog is citing/claiming. But I understand there is also disagreement within the interpretation of the sources. Otherwise, yes, I do agree, I do need to see some alternatives, otherwise I will simply go with @Mmemaigret's suggestions as long as they are within policy, which they do appear to be, to be clear. I can't make an attempt at compromise if I don't have two clear possibilities. MWFwiki (talk) 03:35, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

The lack of consensus is precisely what I've offered that we acknowledge. As usual, I'm a bit confused by the ire. 1. Why am I not allowed to address you directly? 2. I did propose an alternative. So let me be more explicit. Here's an exact proposal that incorporates it: Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians, resulting from complex patterns of language contact of numerous English dialects and English creoles.* Bahamian dialect's classification as a variety of English, a distinct creole (or former creole) language of its own, or a heterogenous mixture [or whatever third destination you wish] is a matter of ongoing linguistic debate. Additionally, regional, ethnic, and socioeconomic markers and differentiations exist in the country. For the asterisk: Just checking, for the "English creoles," do you mean Gullah and AAVE? Do the sources name additional ones too? Wolfdog (talk) 12:27, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

@Mmemaigret and @Wolfdog — What about "Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians and reflects complex patterns of contact among various English dialects and creoles; its classification as a variety of English, a distinct (or former) creole, or as a heterogeneous mixture remains a matter of linguistic debate. Regional, ethnic, and socioeconomic markers and differences within the language also exist across the country." — However, for this: "its classification as a variety of English, a distinct (or former) creole, or as a heterogeneous mixture remains a matter of linguistic debate" — I need to see a source that outright states this. No inferring, no guesswork. Is that providable? Otherwise, we go with:

"Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians and reflects complex patterns of contact among various English dialects and creoles. Regional, ethnic, and socioeconomic markers and differences within the language also exist across the country." (or close to it) MWFwiki (talk) 22:34, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I can't tell if you're asking me or Mme for further sources. My sources, like the Oenbring and McPhee ones I've mentioned, show scholars distinguish between Bahamian English and Bahamian Creole. Do you want more of that kind of evidence? Mme for example provides the Scheier above as saying No consensus exists, however, on the creole status (past or current) of Afro-Bahamians. Wolfdog (talk) 22:57, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

Well, we are saying, in Wikivoice, that:

"[Bahamian dialect's] classification as a variety of English, a distinct (or former) creole, or as a heterogeneous mixture remains a matter of linguistic debate[...]"

So, I need a source that says that. Your statement of: "My sources, like the Oenbring and McPhee ones I've mentioned, show scholars distinguish between Bahamian English and Bahamian Creole" is all very well and good but it doesn't show that there is linguistic debate about BD's classification; it shows scholars distinguish between the BD/BE and BC, right?. I agree, Mmemaigret statement is a bit closer. But that statement can be considered to be addressing BD? If so, go for it. MWFwiki (talk) 23:05, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog

The sources distinguish between Bahamian English and Bahamian Creole: No they do not.

First, the terminology has changed over time:

Early: Anglo-Bahamian English (acrolectal) vs. Afro-Bahamian English
Later: WBD (White Bahamian Dialect) (not-acrolectal) vs. BBD (Black Bahamian Dialect)
Recently: Bahamian English, Bahamian Dialect, Bahamian Creole English

Second, in the literature, Bahamian English is used to refer to all varieties (eg. Wells) or just Bahamian Dialect. You can make a distinction between "Standard Bahamian English" and "Bahamian Creole English" but not between "Bahamian English" and "Bahamian Creole English" because the former includes the latter.

But this is what is important: "Bahamian Creole English" as academics use it refers to the basilectal elements (the features furthest from the standard or of least prestige) - it doesn't correspond to what Bahamians themselves call "Bahamian Dialect."

Bahamian Dialect is what ordinary Bahamians call their local speech. Regular people aren't linguists - they don't analyse grammar, they just know they speak differently from Standard English. To them, it sounds like one thing because the accent is similar across islands. But it's actually an umbrella term for a patois that has different registers and regional variations that aren't identical. The English that developed in Maine (Abaco) isn't the same as what developed in Georgia (San Salvador). A white community in Maine (Abaco) doesn't tell you anything about rural West Virginia (Spanish Wells).

The same applies here: the Bahamas is an archipelago where different islands were settled differently, so different varieties developed. They sound similar (accent) but have different features. Bahamians are skilled code shifters so they move between them using a number of grammatical forms without someone telling them they can't because it's not "proper English".

@MWFwiki:

I can actually accept Wolfdog's proposal if "debate" is changed to "research" or "inquiry" or "investigation." Despite the fact that I don't think his second sentence is actually necessary if you read the paragraph in the article that follows this one.

- MmeMaigret (talk) 23:52, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I am FINE with "investigation" or "inquiry."

And I'm sorry, but there are indeed sources distinguishing between BEng and BCre and/or that DO NOT agree that Bahamian English is used to refer to all varieties: McPhee: "This lack of research on “Bahamian Dialect” is perhaps due to the fact that for many years, Bahamians have assumed that this language is simply a variety of English. However, academic research shows that this is not the case. In fact, there is much socio-historical and linguistic evidence to support the proposal that “Bahamian Dialect” is a creole" and later "This paper presents just some linguistic evidence – there is more – that Bahamian “Dialect” is a creole language separate from English". Wolfdog (talk) 01:58, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog You're cherry picking one author whose conclusion you like despite the fact that she doesn't detail what "academic research proves this isn't the case". She doesn't even use the term "Bahamian English" in the articled and she concludes by saying: "This paper presents just some linguistic evidence – there is more – that Bahamian Dialect is a creole language separate from English." The fact is if academics could prove a creole language, they would be able to document it and describe it as a complete system and they wouldn't still be researching. But no one can prove that a language creolised in the Bahamas unless they have a time machine.

@MWFwiki Can we please conclude this? MmeMaigret (talk) 03:08, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

So are you cool with "investigation" or "inquiry"? Wolfdog (talk) 04:03, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog @MWFwiki Yes, can we land on:

Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians, resulting from complex patterns of language contact of numerous English dialects and English creoles. Bahamian dialect's classification as a variety of English, a distinct creole (or former creole) language of its own, or a ~~heterogenous~~ diverse mixture ~~[or whatever third destination you wish]~~ is a matter of ongoing linguistic ~~debate~~ investigation. Additionally, regional, ethnic, and socioeconomic markers and differentiations exist in the country.

...

a more complex set of varieties along a linguistic continuum. MmeMaigret (talk) 08:25, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

Deal. Wolfdog (talk) 11:59, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

ARBITRARY BREAK

Yeah, I have to say, I do agree with MmeMaigret's above contention, Wolfdog. The rest of the section is dedicated to BC's status/debate. I don't think we need to include it in the first paragraph. So, we go with:

"Bahamian dialect, as it is called in the Bahamas, is the first oral language of most Bahamians and reflects complex patterns of contact among various English dialects and creoles. Regional, ethnic, and socioeconomic markers and differences within the language also exist across the country." (or something very close to it; If there's some minor grammatical changes that's fine).

I still maintain that "dialect" should not be capitalized at this juncture. Again, I'm not personally against it, I just don't think we currently have support for it... as I said, that's a separate topic and possibly grounds for an RfC for a review of how sources handle it. However, I see no issue with capitalizing "Standard". Regardless, I apologize if I've frustrated either of you; I mentioned, I felt my lack of linguistic knowledge might be helpful from a neutrality standpoint, but I can see that I probably annoyed you. That being said, I'm happy to continue helping with any of the other disputes. MWFwiki (talk) 00:50, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

I think Mme and I have come to an agreement above (but not sure -- she'll need to confirm). Wolfdog (talk) 01:59, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

Sorry I overlooked your message @MWFwiki Should it be retained, I think we've reached a compromise on that second sentence (ie Bahamian dialect's classification as a variety of English, a distinct creole (or former creole) language of its own, or a diverse mixture is a matter of ongoing linguistic debate investigation.) but my preference would be to delete it.

(Also, while I would prefer if the D in Dialect were capitalised, it's not something I've weighed in on during this 3O and not something I'm ~~not~~ going to die in a ditch over it.) Cheers MmeMaigret (talk) 10:15, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

I'm happy with this next step. The creole mention remains significant to me, per my McPhee quote above; per Scheier's "Hackert (2004) convincingly demonstrates that the language variety spoken in the urban centre of Nassau is best thought of as a creole, though it is not conclusive whether creolization is an older or current process"; per Donnelly's "Although Bahamian Dialect appears to be a dialect of English, it is actually more a Creole, though it has de-Creolized over the years"; and per this source saying, of Bahamians, "however, linguists are making a case that the local words have become a fully developed Creole langauge. Thus, 'Bahamianese' does not necessarily refer to just an English dialect but an entire language"; and also, "BahCE does not seem to be in danger of becoming fully decreolised," lumping "BahCE and other creoles""; etc. etc. Again, I'd like the record to state I'm not trying to take some one-sided stance; I merely think it quite relevant to demonstrate the diversity of stances. Wolfdog (talk) 14:40, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

@Wolfdog, @MWFwiki Sorry but what next step are you happy with? As for mentions of creole, you've got a main article link to the other page that says creole, the first sentence of this paragraph that we're discussing says creole and the next paragraph in the article also mentions creole. How many more mentions do you need? But isn't the comprehension of readers what's most important? (If they want to read more about the academic theories about a creole, surely they can refer to the other article.) MmeMaigret (talk) 19:57, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

The one you just said: I think we've reached a compromise on that second sentence. Wolfdog (talk) 20:50, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

Well, let's get it added and let's see how it looks with sources. @Mmemaigret MWFwiki (talk) 23:46, 26 February 2026 (UTC)

References

More information Collapsed for brevity and clarity ...

Collapsed for brevity and clarity

[1]
Schreier, 2010, pp. 160–161: "the style-shifting abilities of residents make it difficult to estimate the numbers of speakers who speak any Bahamian dialect; however, drawing solely from demographic data, about five in six Bahamian residents... where much of the creole Bahamian basilect can be heard (Hackert 2004). The remaining approximately 50,000 residents are spread throughout the rest of the islands and vary considerably in their speech patterns".

[1]
Schreier, Daniel; Trudgill, Peter; Schneider, Edgar W.; Williams, Jeffrey P. (2010-03-04). The Lesser-Known Varieties of English: An Introduction. Cambridge University Press. p. 161. ISBN 978-1-139-48741-2. Despite these difficulties impeding concise description, some generalities can be made about Bahamian English. For one, no study of Anglo-Bahamians has found evidence of past creolization.... No consensus exists, however, on the creole status (past or current) of Afro-Bahamians...Generally speaking, islands that were settled earlier and historically have had higher percentages of Afro-Bahamians are more likely to have residents whose speech exhibits creole-like features.
[2]
Shilling, Alison (1980). "Bahamian English–A Non-Continuum?". In Richard R. Day (ed.). Varieties of English Around the World (Issues in English Creoles: Papers from the 1975 Hawaii Conference). pp. 133–146. doi:10.1075/veaw.g2.10shi. More important, it seems to me that a continuum, post-Creole or not, must have some systematic educational socio-economic correlates... it is extremely easy to find similarities between BBD and other Afro-American English. Although the fit is not perfect, the Bahamian features I have examined could place BBD on a continuum with both Black English and Caribbean Creoles
[3]
Hackert; Holm (2009). "Southern Bahamian: Transported African American Vernacular English or Transported Gullah?". The College of The Bahamas Research Journal. 15: 12–21. We can conclude that the development of Bahamian, Gullah and AAVE did not involve the restructuring of English to as great an extent as did the development of creoles like Sranan and Jamaican, and that the most likely cause for this was the relatively high proportion of native speakers of English... Both creole-influenced dialect of English (AAVE) and an English-influenced variety of creole (Gullah) were brought into contact with a variety probably somewhere between the two (Bahamian) when the Loyalists brought their slaves to the Bahamas in the 1780s.
[4]
Hackert; Holm (2009). "Southern Bahamian: Transported African American Vernacular English or Transported Gullah?". The College of The Bahamas Research Journal. 15: 12–21. As a new generation of linguists continues to describe the vernacular speech of the Bahamas (e.g. Albury, 1981; Rafi, 1983; Lawlor, 1986, 1988; Donnelly, 1992; Seymour, 1995; McPhee, 2003; Hackert, 2004; Reaser, 2004), it bears repeating that the histories of Bahamian, Gullah and AAVE are interrelated in fundamental ways, and closer study of each variety promises to cast new light on the structure and development of the other two.
[5]
Donnelly, Janet L. (1997). "Basilectal Features of Bahamian Creole English". International Journal of Bahamian Studies. 9. University of The Bahamas (published 2008-02-18): 17–34. doi:10.15362/ijbs.v9i0.28. p. 21: The purpose of this paper is to describe some of the more basilectal features of Bahamian and, by so doing, to provide a frame for further study.
[6]
Childs, Becky; Wolfram, Walt (2008). "Bahamian English Phonology". Varieties of English: The Americas and the Caribbean. Vol. 2. De Gruyter Mouton. p. 428. ISBN 9783110208405. There are a number of linguistic and sociolinguistic issues relating to this archipelago. One question concerns the significance of different founder English varieties that range from British and American English dialects to Gullah and other creoles in the African diaspora. Few Caribbean varieties have such a full range of potential English input dialects.

Closing note

3O possibility

Evidence for the "continuum" label

References

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