Talk:Ceremonial pole

Anthropologically what it is also likely that stick/stake/pole related reverance and celebrations would have been started even before inroduction of formal concept of religion to human beings, by this narrow definition human ancestors are being put with a burden of being religious what might not have necesssarilly existed then.

In present times also all individuals / families and and communities may not necessarilly be religious they might be participating just because a matter of culture or matter of indiviual faith in an object. So I note my difference of openion and I prefer to belive that term faiths and cultures will be broad to be inclusive of facts and apropriate

Rgds

Mahitgar (talk) 04:40, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

It's more that former religious practices have often become secularized in various places into more vernacular, secular folk practices. They originated in religion. Archaeology has demonstrated pretty conclusively that religion in the broad sense dates back at least to the last Ice Age. "Religion" in English doesn't mean only "centralized, organized, authoritarian, dogmatic religion with a priestly class". It includes even the most rudimentary animism and totemism. The self-identification of "spiritual but not religious" is a thoroughly modern concept. That said, because some of the religious practices have in fact become secularized, the lead should be clear about this. Just not for the "it only became religious later" rationale that you're advancing, for which there won't be any reliable sources.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:21, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

At the moment I am not really sure what is intended for the article here. We have here example given of the flower pole of Miao people in China, but there is nothing in the source to suggest there is anything religious in the use of the pole. I feel that there is a need to establish what the point of the article is first, is it pole as object of worship (is there evidence that maypole was used for worship?), pole as religious symbol of some sort (apparently not the flower pole of Miao peole), pole that has some kind of cultural significance or symbolism (that would include totem pole), pole use in ceremony or ritual but not necessarily has any religious meaning by itself alone (e.g. Danza de los Voladores), or pole used in any cultural activity (that would be a huge category). If I understand your point correctly, what you are saying would be it would be about poles that are or were religious in the broadest sense (which may include totem pole). There is a need to clearly define first what is being discuss here, starting with a workable definition, before we get to the actual content of the article. I'm also wondering about the use of the term "ceremonial pole", the sources I can find are mostly on India, Nepal, North American Indians and a few others - , , , , , , , . I haven't seen one that refers to maypole as a ceremonial post, so perhaps a different term might be necessary? There is by the way a ceremonial pole at the South Pole which is another use of the term. Hzh (talk) 22:33, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I think the article creator's intention here is WP:OR. I concur with what SMcCandlish said above, "It's original research to equate every dissimilar use of a lengthy piece of rigid plant material, across every culture in the world." I think WP:TNT is the eventual destination here, and has been ever since this started as an unsourced essay called, "Pole worship." - CorbieV^☊☼ 23:32, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I have no strong objections to an article about poles used in worship or ones that have some kinds of religious or cultural symbolism. There is some kind of commonality to justify an article like this, but it does need a clear definition, ideally sourced to something written by an anthropologist or something authoritative, otherwise it would veer towards to WP:OR. I can see it being the subject of a scholarly study, we are however not the ones who would do such studies. Hzh (talk) 02:44, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

1) Since wikipedians are not expressing or creating any new inference in this article, intention of the article does not amount to WP:OR

2) Encyclopedias being Compendium putting simillar things together (without deriving any new specific inferences) is encyclopedist job so my openion this article is within encyclopedic definition and objective.

3) We need to search for more anthro definitions but need to research more WP:RS books, many of them may not be avialable as open resource and need to be searched in paid resources so I have made application to WP:library but this is ceratainly a long process.

4) After a wider discussion if wikipedian community feels that splitting the article on ritual/religion based and non ritual/religion based then may not be best but I would accept it; But the reality is "Traditions seem to exist or existed is the fact; world wide getting specific religious or other symbolism is always going to vary across global communities over the centuries and across differend regions some variations are going to be there." So having a boader definition like just as a human culture should suffice for a common article.

5) Still after wider discussion community feels that article needs to go back to sandbox I will accept it as inevitable. But since many things are related to world cultures in different different languages article remaining in mainspace and getting transalated from english to world languages and back would give betters justice what wikipedia can afford to do for co-ordiantion of global knowledge, as long as english wikipedian community is willing to take on this honourable job.

So if needed please seek wider community consultation for consensus so we have lesser ambiguity on the issue.

Thanks to every one for open discussion and regards

Mahitgar (talk) 04:00, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Comment: I went through the discussions uptil now,-may be it needs to be corrected and improved further for english grammar and consensus -Over all openions seems to be like following (this is my personal impression not binding over others in any way):

1) what this article shall not include: "No blind inclusion of each and every use of lengthy piece of rigid plant material or just a free-standing object staff/sceptre/Totem poles if does not fit in following definition" (mentioned in 2a and 2b)

2a) A ceremonial pole is a pole used in festivals, ceremonies and/or rituals to symbolize a variety of concepts in several different religions and/or cultures.

2b) Ritual pole is a consecrated pole which may represent as a symbol for various concepts or spirits in the religion which may include an aspect of respect/reverence/veneration/adoration/devotion; towards a faith, religion or cultuaral celebration amongst family or community.

2c) A pole can be a stick or stake too.

Please join in improving point 1 and point 2 a&b

Mahitgar (talk) 06:09, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is already original research in the first couple of lines - "A ceremonial pole is a pole to symbolize a variety of concepts in several different religions. For example in the Miao culture in Yunnan China" implies that the flower pole of Miao culture is religious in nature, when the source does not say it is. An article needs to start with a good definition, and for a subject like this, it is ideally a definition from a specialist in the field, defining terms yourself is original research (for example your definitions of ceremonial pole and ritual pole, you need sources for such distinctions). Putting disparate items together because you think they are related through your own definition is WP:OR. You need to have a clear idea what your article should be about and whether it is the best way to approach the topic, for example, you may want to write an article about animals with stripes, but perhaps it would be better to write it as part of an article on animal camouflage. At the moment you are talking about two perhaps separate ideas (ceremonial and ritual poles), and you want to define yourself what the "pole" should mean. I would suggest that perhaps you have a look into anthropology books and see if you can find something so you can approach this topic in a more coherent manner. Hzh (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

And where did "consecrated" come from?  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:40, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Hzh for continuation of the discusssion to find a solution. I hope you have already visited Change_of_article_name discussion on this talk page. Besides User:SMcCandlish another descriptive openion is from User:Kendrick7; He says I quote, "...although I can see that the article is taking a more worldwide cultural perspective (which is nice to see, of course)." He acknowledges, "Festival pole would also perhaps be the common name for the concept in English,..." in next sentence he suggests,"...You could go with something long winded like Pole use in festivals and ceremonies."^[1] Before him User:SMcCandlish says "...2) their use in festivals remains an essentially ritual practice even if secularized, and where it retains religious significance it's clearly ritual behavior .."^[2]

After this discussion with you, I feel perhaps article name Pole use in festivals and ceremonies would have been better one? (although as of now is settled at ceremonial pole), one way is we put article name for discussion again along with your openion; Another way around is we split article into two articles one for ceremonial poles and second one for ritual poles, but I am not sure howfar splitting the article will solve the problem before us. Because most of these traditions whether you call them ceremonial or ritual are ancient without any official record or inscription to support and as far as anthropologists and historians are concerned they can keep disagreeing with one another for ever; if one anthro/historian says maypole is ritual in charecter the other historian will keep arguing otherwise and problem before me or you where to include a tradition shall remain never ending. Then there are certain religious faiths (that shall include some wikipedians too) who define some of these traditions as haieda/pagan and keep censoring anthro openions directly or indirectly, already couple of editors seem vociferous over the issue (unfortunatelly I did not realise/expected this aspect when I started article).

Practically before us seem to be three ways one is settle for article name Pole use in festivals and ceremonies, second is I take back the article to my sandbox, cross the fingures and wait that some anthro difinition becomes available which is agreeable to all the en wikipedians, third way is I discuss the issue at Wikiversity and request them to accept this article since that sister project is likely to have some additional flexibility over the issue, the only thing for them is value of this article is more encyclopedic than educational but no harm in discussing with them. In last two options inter-language wikipedia collaboration -indirectlly those tribal communities which usually do not get chance to project their culture effectivelly- may suffer a lot.

Uptill now we are having a frank and open discussion, I hope we can find a solution with some sort of consensus.

References in my comment

Mahitgar (talk) 13:32, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, the issues and the arguments arose precisely because there isn't a clear idea of what this article is about. You need to start with how this subject is tackled academically and a workable definition that has been established in academic circles, so that we have a good idea of what this article is supposed to be. A title of "Pole use in festivals and ceremonies" is too clunky and suggests that it is a hodge-podge of items. You can continue to discuss what you want the article to be about here, in the interim, you need to trim the article to remove anything that does not quite fit the opening definition (e.g. the Miao), or you need refine the definition so that the article is more coherent as it stands. Hzh (talk) 14:45, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

This thread is rapidly turning into a WP:TLDR pile of Mahitgar talking to himself, with increasing stridency. Let's cut to the chase:

• We have no sources that all ceremonial pole use is per se religious.
• We have no sources that hand-held sticks and ground-mounted poles have any particular cultural connection (except hypothetically in one case, according to Nuttall), much less that such a connection exists cross-culturally. Anyone with an anthropology background will recognize such an overgeneralization as unsupportable.
• We have no sources clearly distinguishing between different categories of pole use in traditional cultural contexts; the very idea of categorizing some of them as "religious" vs. "spiritual" vs. "ritual" vs. whatever is a Western labeling-exercise imposition.

What we do have is essentially a WP:CONCEPTDAB page about the ceremonial use (broadly defined) of ground-mounted, upright poles. The purpose of such an article is to help people find further material about the particular instance they're looking for, e.g. the article Maypole. It is not to try to advance novel ideas that there's a connection between European maypoles and Miao flowering poles and poles used in ancient Assyria. This article is also not a WP:COATRACK upon which to hang every mention of a stick or staff used in some kind of ceremony, ritual, rite, myth, or inscription. This article should be close to devoid of any analytic material, because there really isn't anything to analyze, much less any reliable sources for such an analysis. Probably the closest you're going to find is excessively synchretic material from Graves, Fraser, and Campbell, that 20th century school of thought that everything about all religious, spiritual, mythological, and ritual beliefs and behaviors throughout the worlds' cultures can be reduced to a set of universal, shared Jungian archetypes. No one takes that idea seriously any longer; it's a bunch of WP:FRINGE "newage" (rhymes with "sewage"). I'm skeptical that we need this quasi-article at all.

PS: There is no need to use a redundant title like "ceremonial and festival poles" (the requested move below considered such an approach and consensus was not in favor of it) or split the article in two; "festival" is already included within the broad meaning of "ceremony", and any attempt to distinguish these uses of poles into two categories (please cite the source for such categorizations!) is going to be an obvious exercise in WP:OR.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:40, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

[[:File:Nantosuelta HistMusPfalz 3482a.jpg|thumb|A depiction of Nantosuelta from Speyer, showing her distinctive sceptre and birds. The head of Sol]]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahitgar (talk • contribs) 16:00, 6 October 2015‎ (UTC)

A staff/sceptre is not a pole in the sense of this article (a free-standing object).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:24, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

• Native American Mythology By Hartley Burr Alexander

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahitgar (talk • contribs) 12:44, 8 October 2015‎ (UTC)

Please sign your posts; I've had to dig up and insert attribution for at least four of your posts here.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  12:26, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

No. Vague overview by an outsider to the cultures he's describing. Nothing that refers to Native American religions as "sun worship" and Dineh spirit beings as "Navajo gods" is WP:RS for those cultures. The linked text is sourced to DeSmet, a French Colonist who wrote inaccurate, biased and denigrating portrayals of First Nations people. - CorbieV^☊☼ 18:05, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Following is listing of simillar (prima facia) tradition where in we may need further confirmation and/or citation from reliable sources Mahitgar (talk) 09:51, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

• Rehue - (Chile)
• Anshun -(China)
• lantern raising ritual at Jui Tui Shrine -Thailand^[1][2] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.215.23.200 (talk) 13:50, 28 October 2015 (UTC)
• Palo de Mayo - (Nicaragua)
• Palo (religion) - (Practiced in Cuba to Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Colombia, and Latino communities in the United States - Originating from Congo africa as per en wikipedia article)
• Ningui - Ecuador
• Kuturu, Larrakitj -Australia
• rangga, of eastern Arnhem Land -Australia^[3]
• mythical naldawata pole ^[4]
• Mäsqal-Pole -Gurageland ^[5]
• Akita Kantō -Japan
• Pau da Bandeira - Brazil ^[6]
• Gawai Kalingkang -Iban ritual pole - Malaysia
• Neu - Tet bamboo pole - Vietnam ^[7] Please see the reference, Where this tradition can be classified in this article or trees in mythology ? (I am bit confused)

Spanish language

• es:Baile de las cintas is it = Maypole dance ? or different ?

South asia

• Yashim Guthi of 'Sankhu', Nepal^[8]

To be inserted after 'Hinglajmata Sindh'

• Sasan Kathi सासण काठी Jyotiba Temple (Maharashtra) India and God Yedoba^[9] of Village Yerad, Taluka Patan, District Satara district (Maharashtra) India - looking for WP:RS for both.
• Sirimanu (Tamil Nadu or Andhra Pradesh) Sirimanothsavam#Procession -

Section created by Mahitgar (talk) 14:26, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Anshun does not mention poles.

Palo (religion) doesn't appear to have anything to do with poles. You seem to be confusing Palo de Mayo (an Afro-Caribbean mixture of European maypole ceremony and African ritual dancing), with Nicaraguan Palo, which has nothing to do with ritual poles, but with construction of altars out of sticks. It's blind coincidence that Spanish palo can mean 'stick' (something one can hold in the hand) and 'pole' (something much larger that one mounts in the ground). Given above discussions, the rest of the above material needs to be examined for similar mingling of distinct topics, this WP:COATRACKing of stick/staff/rod/scepter/wand material into an article about large, ground-embedded poles. Not every wooden object longer than a toothpick is the the same thing in every ceremonial/ritual context. Equating them is a serious WP:OR problem. We also have the related problem of including lantern-carrying ceremonial behavior, which is not likely to be related to, nor is comparable to, ritual or festival behavior centered on a pole in the ground. Something like Akita Kantō involves a pole only incidentally, as a structure to support additional lanterns. Next someone's going to want to include Dragon dance because it involves puppeteering sticks that someone may want to defined as a "pole". I think I'm just going to take this to WP:AFD. [Going with RfC instead, below.]  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  23:04, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

About Anshun at this ref (seems from Anshun university) bamboo worship is reffered. some wikipedian might have reffered the same in Anshun article. I remember online I have seen one more ref some where I need to locate again, the bestway is it gets confirmed from chinese wikipedians along with wp:rs

Thanks for your informed feed back. Rgds Mahitgar (talk) 12:03, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Just for reference not for immidiate inclusion in the article. Mahitgar (talk) 10:07, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Is there a reason why Mære Church is singled out in Ceremonial pole § Europe? Does it have particularly significance as a historical site? Or was it just included to pad out this underdeveloped article with vaguely relevant content? It's a bit odd to have it tacked onto the end of the section without context or an explanation of its relevance. It reads like undue weight given to a single marginal example. If it can't be better integrated into the text, it should be pruned. – Scyrme (talk) 23:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Nordeide Sæbjørg Walaker certainly was an important figure in archaeology. But that might not be a good reason to keep it. Doug Weller talk 14:24, 20 August 2022 (UTC)