Talk:Don Giovanni

Recent edits have changed the description of Don Giovanni's treatment of Donna Anna in the first scene from "seduced" to "raped", back to "seduced" (with an unkind edit summary) and then to "raped" again. There's plenty of literature about the character of Donna Anna: whether she was indeed raped or whether she was a willing participant in the clandestine liaison. Neither text nor music of the opera give an unambiguous explanation. On balance, it seems to me that te characterisation of "rape" has a whiff of a modern reading about it and seems somewhat anachronistic. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. Anna is not especially ambiguous about what she believes happened, which would seem to indicate, not necessarily that "rape" is the correct word to use in the summary, but that "seduce" is not sufficiently nuanced. What do you think of writing "rape or seduce" and including a footnote about different interpretations? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 15:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't think "rape or seduce" is good prose. We don't know what went on in Donna Anna's chambers. She cries: "Al traditore!" What does that mean? DG betrayed her trust? What trust? Leporello says: "Sforzar la figlia ed ammazzar il padre!" (force himself on the daughter and kill the father) – sounds like rape; but its' usually translated as "seduce the daughter and then dispatch the father" (possibly for reasons of metre?). When Ottavio arives, DA's only concern is to revenge her father's death. It's all very muddled. I'm not sure how to explain all that and the various comments in the literature on this angle in a footnote. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking more in "Or sai," but thanks for reminding me about Leporello. (The inaccurate metrical translation is irrelevant.) And yeah, we don't know what went on, and productions/interpretations vary, which is why saying in our summary that one thing or another is correct is a bad idea... –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 22:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)

What Leporello tells us is that Giovanni is "passing time" or dallying inside. Questions of what actually took place offstage or the motivations of witnesses belong properly to the reception history. Has L witnessed a seduction/been briefed by/lied to by DG? Does he later see a rape in the wings/leap to conclusions based on screaming, or is he pretending to be outraged in the context of negotiating for his unpaid wages? Is DA reassuring a fiance (whom she seems in no hurry to marry) after being found in an ambiguous situation, or is she enlisting him in revenge for being outraged/spurned/indirectly implicated in her father's death? Neither "seduction" "rape" nor "attempted rape" are necessary in the synopsis. Sparafucil (talk) 01:52, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

It's not important at that line in the summary alone but it drives the rest of the plot. (And incidentally I see that at some point, someone removed "raped" again so I shall add it back.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:19, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

This is not a rape. Donna Anna sings, "Do not expect me ever to let you escape, unless you kill me." Here is an analysis of this point: ^[1] The author of this article writes: "I take this to mean that she is taken with him sexually and wants to cling to him. The speech is ambiguous and could be interpreted as, "I am holding on to you until the police arrive," but I think not. It is the word "ever" that is the tip-off. "You will not ever leave me" is the sort of thing that would be said by a clinging lover, not someone making a citizen's arrest." Sbelknap (talk) 14:20, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Why don't you place it below, same topic, also old, but not that old. Everlasting, it seems. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:29, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Just yesterday there was a section titled "Other performances", it included the date of the premiere of Don Giovanni in London, in Italy, etc. This is an important subject, it's a proof of the reception of Mozart outside Germany/Austria and the opposition it faced. Why was it taken away? Who deleted it and why? Can it be recovered? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.37.21.208 (talk) 23:55, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@188.37.21.208: I think you must be mistaken, I don't see that this page has been edited since April. We do have an "Other early performances" section in the article on Figaro and mention of a London premiere of Così? –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 02:42, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Read the libretto! This is not a rape. Rape is clearly not what the libretto implies. The entire history of the Don Juan story in its previous instances is relevant and does not imply rape. The cited article makes this point as well. Yet the wikipedia article suggests it could have been a rape. Seduction of Donna Anna is still an evil act, as the consequences of seduction were potentially dire for the seduced women in a time when women were not financially independent, there was no effective contraception, social mores were harsh, and the social safety net was quite limited. Often, an unwed mother at that time was headed for the convent or the street. Some persons do not understand the social situation for women during Mozart's time. Don Giovanni may have tricked Donna Anna my impersonating another, or he may have made false promises, or otherwise acted unethically. But it was not rape. Donna Anna sings, "Do not expect me ever to let you escape, unless you kill me." Here is an analysis of this point: ^[1] The author of this article writes: "I take this to mean that she is taken with him sexually and wants to cling to him. The speech is ambiguous and could be interpreted as, "I am holding on to you until the police arrive," but I think not. It is the word "ever" that is the tip-off. "You will not ever leave me" is the sort of thing that would be said by a clinging lover, not someone making a citizen's arrest." Sbelknap (talk) 14:20, 22 August 2018 (UTC) Sbelknap (talk) 22:51, 22 August 2018 (UTC)

Donna Anna's truthfulness or untruthfulness deserves some discussion and Hoffman/Kierkegaard don't yet have any analysis; the Don_Giovanni#Cultural_influence section is more reception than influence. But a synopsis describes what we're seeing, a highly ambiguous situation in which Donna Anna has raised a general alarm. Even the cited J. Kerns essay says: "I was indignant at the staging of the performance, which seemed to depart from the text to paint the Don as a villain." This is not the place to try to work out whether Leporello has misjudged the facts or to carry out analysis. Sparafucil (talk) 20:19, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Whether or not Anna was raped or seduced, Kerns's interpretation is pretty obviously wrong, and also from an unreliable source. Anyway, both interpretations have strong support in the literature (and the rape interpretation is arguably better supported by the libretto) so IMO there is nothing to be said about removing "rape" from the article. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:55, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Please explain how the Kerns analysis is wrong. Sbelknap

"Read the libretto! This is not a rape. Rape is clearly not what the libretto implies."

However, since an opera does not consist exclusively of the libretto, one should also consider the music, the musical setting. In Mozart's operas, it very often happens that the music says something different than the characters, e.g. through the modulations and keys used, the rhetorical motifs (passus duriusculus, dubitatio, etc.).

"The entire history of the Don Juan story in its previous instances is relevant and does not imply rape."

Even if it were, what relevance would it have to this discussion? The fact that other arrangements do not imply rape is certainly interesting, but it does not allow us to draw any conclusions about how Da Ponte and Mozart handle this issue.

"The cited article makes this point as well. Yet the wikipedia article suggests it could have been a rape."

And this is the only correct way to deal with this so far unsolved and hotly disputed question. No one knows 100% whether it is a seduction or an (attempted) rape, and this fact should be mentioned. Anything else would be an unsubstantiated interpretation. For every source that claims it is not rape, there is another source that claims the opposite. --DerFigaro (talk) 15:39, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Is "the cuts are rarely made" or is "the cut music is rarely performed" intended here. Op47 (talk) 17:26, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

The infobox and the lead have recently been changed a bit, resulting in the loss of mentioning and linking Don Juan – still linked in the "Roles" section. I felt that a mention and link in the lead section ought to be restored as it had been there before an anonymous IP removed them on 28 April 2022, which I overlooked at the time. But when that link was recently removed from the infobox as well, I restored it. User:Masato.harada felt hat Don Giovanni is based on "a centuries-old Spanish legend, not Don Juan" and removed the name. When I pointed out that "the article Don Juan deals with that legendary Spanish figure, the subject of Don Giovanni Tenorio & The Trickster of Seville and the Stone Guest and restored the linked name, among some other not insignificant improvements, Masato.harada reverted my whole edit again, this time arguing, "Previous wording has stood since April 2022. Per WP:STATUSQUO, if you wish to change it, then please discuss on talk page first." This is factually wrong and it shows a flawed understanding of the essays WP:BRD (it's not BRR) and WP:STATUSQUO (they didn't initiate a "dispute discussion").

I suggest to restore the link in the lead as it provides historical context. The connection with Don Juan is widely documented, e.g. in Britannica, musicological literature, and thousands of program notes. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:29, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

• I don't find the assertion in the edit summary (that Don Giovanni is not based on Don Juan) to be credible. It is a strange omission. As for policy, the article body has sourced statements linking Don Giovanni back to Don Juan, and the lede is supposed to summarize the body. Einsof (talk) 01:00, 25 February 2026 (UTC)
• I support restoring the link, which offers more context and mentions the play as the first instance anyway. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:36, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

• My objection was grammatical, not whether the opera is based on Don Juan: by changing the grammatical subject of the sentence from "a centuries-old Spanish legend" to "Don Juan", the meaning of the statement in the lead section was changed, without discussion. How about "Its subject is a centuries-old Spanish legend about a libertine, Don Juan, as told by playwright..." Masato.harada (talk) 11:53, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

I've changed it. I'm glad that we were eventually able to determine through this talk page discussion that the ask here was to move two words further down in a sentence. Einsof (talk) 12:46, 25 February 2026 (UTC)