Talk:Federal Europe

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George Washington quote

The link to the source of the George Washington quotation is broken and no such quote can be found at http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/ . Jaia (talk) 08:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)jaia

The quote should actually just be removed completely, since it is more than merely "disputed", but has actually already been completely debunked as a misattribution from a French author, who was using the idea of "George Washington" to give voice to his musings about the possibility of European federation.^[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C445:5989:9817:8548:C8B:D0B (talk) 16:35, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Proposal

In January, Vivianne Reding, has proposed the transformation of the EU into United States of Europe.--89.128.236.143 (talk) 05:53, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Map

I think the map is wrong as Russia is a possible member of the EU, so should be shaded green. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.25.109.196 (talk) 09:45, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Section "small power" in section "predictions" ist about the EU, not the USE

The section "small power" describes present day EU, not the subject of the article, which is about the United States of Europe being possible in the future. Anything in the section "predictions" should predict something. I haven't read the original source, but if its authors is drawing conclusions from the EU to any possible USE, it should be pointed out here as well. Otherwise I will delete the section. --JakobvS (talk) 11:03, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

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Merger Proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was the merge. The name of this page is in question though.

I believe this article overlaps much with the European superstate page. I think they can be merged. I personally believe the term European Superstate is a more neutral term, but I am not super knowledgeable about the subject. It is clear that this page is more established. Thoughts? Oldag07 (talk) 15:10, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

First of all, I agree with the RtM. The only real issue is which name should take precedence going forward. Neither term is "official" so we can't take the easy way out.

- The term "United States of Europe" is much used in fact and fiction books going back many years (see the USofE article), European Superstate is of far more recent coinage.
- The term USofE is the one used and recognised more widely world-wide, if only by adaptation from USofA. As evidence, there are 27 articles in other language wikipedias - all those I understand are straight translations of USofE and the others have an equivalent syntax.
- As far as I've observed, the term "European superstate" is very much a pejorative term / straw man used by one side of the debate on the UK's relationship with [the rest of] the EU - I don't understand why you would consider it NPOV?
- I can't see any evidence to support the contention that the ES page is "more established" - it is substantially shorter and relies heavily on a single source (Daily Telegraph).
- I don't believe ES has any recognition outside the UK: the ES article has precisely zero corresponding articles in other language wikipedias.
- According to Wikipedia:Web statistics tool's Pageviews Analysis, invocations of USofE is many times more that of ES.

IMO, therefore, the merged article should be called United States of Europe. --Red King (talk) 16:00, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Comment- "This page" in my comment refered to United States of Europe page, not European superstate. I agree with Red Kings argument. Oldag07 (talk) 19:44, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Comment What about an entirely new name? 'Potential European Unification', or 'Speculative European Federalism'? Neither of those are amazing, but something that acknowledges the hypothetical nature of the article would be good.A.D.Hope (talk) 02:19, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Per my notes above, I suggest that US of E already has recognition so I'd hesitate to invent something new. I guess many people would already recognise it as a speculative concept and the remainder would learn something! --Red King (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Comment We could also look into adding or spinning off parts of these articles into this page. Federalisation of the European Union and European integration Oldag07 (talk) 02:24, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. There is a lot to be said for separating material that describes credible plans from mere kite flying. In each case of course, we would have to police rigourously for reliable sources and notable people doing the prediction. Some of the current material in the articles you mention would certainly be better placed here. --Red King (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Support – The European superstate article is short and can be quickly merged and redirected to United States of Europe. We should debate the most appropriate article title separately, there's a lot to discuss. I would call it "European federalism", because that sounds like an idea (which it is), whereas "U.S. of E." sounds like a real thing (which it isn't). European federalismEuropean federalism currently redirects to yet another short article called Federalisation of the European Union; that should probably be merged as well. European integration has a long history of well-sourced commentary under that exact name: it should be left alone. — JFG ^talk 10:30, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

Support the proposed merge.

I think there are two topics we need to keep distinct:

Federalisation of the EU under its current supranational model (covered at Federalisation of the European Union, which possibly should be moved to "European federalism" to make clear it refers to a political idea/movement rather then necessarily something that is actively happening progressively);
and the concept of forming a European superstate as a conventional sovereign federal state a la the United States (both historically and contemporarily)

I don't think "European federalism" necessarily refers to the desire to abandon the current EU model and form a European Superstate. Rather the phrase tends to refer to a political movement who want to further the European Union in a way that would make it resemble more closely a conventional federation, e.g. unifying the armed forces, expanding the single currency, increasing the role of the EU, etc. Whereas the idea of forming a European superstate is a much broader topic that includes hypothetical proposals beyond the EU, including from a historical perspective (Napoleon seemed pretty big on the idea).

I personally don't like the title "United States of Europe" though. It's not very precise or descriptive. I'd prefer something like "Formation of a United States of Europe" or "Formation of a European superstate".

Rob984 (talk) 21:55, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment I could wouldn't mind a different name. I don't see a consensus for that at the moment.

Comment I have been trying to figure out what to add from the European Superstate article and I can't find anything that isn't already on this page. Any thoughts? Oldag07 (talk) 00:27, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Comment, I feel I have merged all additional information from the superstate page into this one. I know we are still debating the name for this page, but I believe we all agree the two pages should be merged.Oldag07 (talk) 20:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Is there any reliable source that says that the EU Council's nominations of July have the clear intention to establish a US of E?

Merge with 'Federalisation of the European Union' and 'European integration' articles?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Though the pages ostensibly cover different topics, much of the content is actually the same.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.12.40.102 (talk) 15:17, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

There is scope overlap to the point of WP:CFORK, the articles should either be merged or else be more closely, ahem, integrated with one another by WP:SS. --dab (𒁳) 10:41, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

I would suggest this article overlaps heavily with European integration, which both cover the broad historical idea, and should be merged into it. Federalisation of the European Union is a specific instance within that, and much of the EU specific information in European Integration should be moved over into that specific article (the European Integration article is currently quite unwieldy). CMD (talk) 10:51, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. The "US of E" Is a fictional concept and will remain that way for the foreseeable future. "Federalisation of the EU" is a real-world motivation for a significant minority and has been happening a little at a time: some commentators suggest that it already has most of the characteristics of one. It is important to keep fiction and reality separate, even if each article is informed by the other. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:23, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

This article does not really devote much space to the fictional concept though, it's a mixture of a history of the concept (and similar concepts) and recent EU information. CMD (talk) 13:42, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, extraneous material keeps getting added. Each little bit extra doesn't seem much but over time it accumulates into a wp:fork. So IMO the solution is a clear out of the EU material (we have an article for that). There remains a strong case for an article about the fiction and Grand Plans. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:10, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

That still leaves the question of how to differentiate this article from European Integration, what belongs on this article, and what this article should be called. Do we include the speech about a European Federal Union, the plans for a Paneuropean Union, and other ideas for which the names are different? A few fiction entries also don't use the current article name. CMD (talk) 03:08, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

I think it best expressed that USE describes an imagined end state, whereas integration and federalisation describe a process that has been long underway and with a long run ahead. It is unavoidable OR/SYN to say that USE is inevitably its end point: it is not. (It is not as far-fetched an idea as Eurabia but is still well out there).

Integration and federalisation should be merged. "Integration" is the less POV term and should be the one that continues. It might make sense then for "federalisation" to become a dab article suggesting each of the other two? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 09:36, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

The Integration and Federalisation articles should definitely not be merged because they cover different topics. The Federalisation article is only about the EU. It is a natural subtopic of the current Integration article, which has a far vaster scope. As for USE, your response doesn't address my questions, which are based on the content within the article right now, which includes end-states that are not called USE. CMD (talk) 10:25, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Congress of Verona 1943

The first mention of a European Community I believe was in 1943 by the Italian Fascists at the Congress of Verona. The English text is here Also in 1943 The Italian Fascists proposed the creation of a 'European Community' free of British 'intrigues' at their Congress of Verona in their newly declared Salo Republic (Mussolini having been rescued from captivity). http://bibliotecafascista.blogspot.com/2012/03/the-manifesto-of-verona-1943.html. However Wikipedia won't allow me to publish as the source is Blogger. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.200.177.1 (talk) 17:08, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Rename article to "European Federalism"

Many changes will need to be made, but I think the phrase "Federal Europe" is more commonly used than the "United States of Europe". PrecariousWorlds (talk) 09:06, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

We have a problem in that USoE is the term commonly used in fiction, whereas FE/EF is a documented real-world process (albeit sometimes exaggerated by europhobes). See also Talk:Federalisation of the European Union#Merge?. No obvious solution leaps to mind. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 20:11, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this proposal. I believe a European Federation is possible, though I don't necessarily believe it'll happen. Either way though, the name "United States of Europe" will never be used for such a federation, I believe. XA1dUXvugi (talk) 15:30, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

If Federalisation of the European Union is back in operation, then I agree with the proposed rename. The USofE name will persist as a redirect and so continue to be findable in a search. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:27, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

What steps are required for doing this? This discussion doesn't seem to be gaining much attention. Do we start a move request or something, and hope that does? Do we just move ourselves? I'm not familiar with this procedure, as this is the first time I've done it. XA1dUXvugi (talk) 17:07, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Normally you could just use the "move" function (top row, under More) but you can't do that when the target name (Federal Europe) is already in use. I believe you need an administrator to do it. Best you ask for advice at the WP:Teahouse, otherwise it is the blind leading the blind. You may be advised to leave the discussion open for a couple of weeks more, to give others an opportunity to assent or dissent but right now it is unanimous. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 18:51, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

In this case I will request technical help from an admin. XA1dUXvugi (talk) 18:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

I have started a technical request for this page to be moved to European Federation: Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests#Uncontroversial technical requests, with the reason being: United States of Europe is a name used purely in fiction, whereas a European Federation as a possible future of the EU and is the subject of debate. XA1dUXvugi (talk) 19:14, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 21 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn (non-admin closure) ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

European Federation → European federationEuropean federation – Per WP:NCCAPS. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 19:25, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. This is a hypothetical entity, a proper name. We have 'European Union', not 'European union'. 'United States', not 'United states'. It is a concept, not a process, The proposal increases the risk of confusion with Federalisation of the European Union, which is a process, at least for its proponents. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:36, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not a proper name as the entity is purely hypothetical, a hypothesis, unlike the EU and US. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:39, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it is certainly a hypothetical, conjectural or fictional organisation. But if it ever did come to pass, its name would be "Federation" with a capital F and it would be a federation – with a small f. The conceptual organisation has a proper name and this is it (or the alternative name United States [sic] of Europe, a union of states). 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 21:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

World government isn't titled World Government because it's a hypothetical entity, and articles are meant to be titled using sentence case. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:01, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Not the same thing at all. There is not proposal for an entity called "The World Government" (along the lines of "The United Nations"): the hypothesis considers how the world as a whole might be governed, so "World government" is appropriate. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:08, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

What proposal is there for "the European Federation"? There is none. For hypothetical entities, the indefinite article should be used, which would mean using sentence case. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Next line. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Additionally, the most widely used form seems to be "European Federation", not "European federation" (e.g.: , , ). Digressivo (talk) 22:09, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

See WP:SENTENCECASE, which is standard for Wikipedia article titles. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:49, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, see WP:SENTENCECASE: The initial letter of a title is almost always capitalized by default; otherwise, words are not capitalized unless they would be so in running text. Which they would be and are in this case, as the examples cited by Digressivo show. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Name one other example of another article of a hypothetical entity that uses title case. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 21:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

There are a few at Future World (disambiguation) for a start. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 10:26, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Where? ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:36, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

~~Support~~, the article seems to be about a hypothetical European federation, whatever its name may be. CMD (talk) 01:30, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The WP:COMMON NAME of this fictional or hypothetical entity has a capital F. The concept you have in mind might indeed have a lower-case F and we already have an article for it: Federalisation of the European Union (unfortunately for this discussion, the "federalisation" comes first, but it might well have been called "European Union federalisation" and I would not object).

But it would make sense to have a disambiguation article called European federation which offered this article and Federalisation of the European Union as possible targets (noting the variety of alternative names – all of which have a capital F. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 19:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

No, that's just headline case, not the common name. I think Federal Europe would be a better name in any case, as it's much more common than "European federation". ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 21:51, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

That would certainly resolve the issue. If you are content to close this proposal and make that a new RtM, I for one will support it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JMF (talk • contribs) 10:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'd prefer to do that, though I don't know if I necessarily can procedurally since Chipmunkdavis supports the current proposal. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:37, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is any procedural issue that stops you from withdrawing an RM you opened. CMD (talk) 00:15, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:RMEC, As long as no one has suggested any outcome besides not moving, the proposer of a move may withdraw their request. The closure should say that the request was withdrawn. @Chipmunkdavis: unless you strikethrough your !vote, I don't think I'm able to withdraw the RM. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:07, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Seems too strict a reading given many have suggested the outcome of a different title, but struck through to facilitate. CMD (talk) 01:07, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose as proposed for the reasons given above. I would, however, support a move to "Federal Europe". A cursory search of Google Books reveals that several books have used that term, starting with a book by Kim Mackay in 1940. --Coolcaesar (talk) 18:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 30 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 02:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

European Federation → Federal Europe – See talkpage consensus at #Requested move 21 April 2024. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 17:29, 29 April 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 16:36, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Support per previous discussion. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 22:01, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment: "European Federation" seems to be a much more widely used term compared to "Federal Europe", according to their respective usage trends on Google Ngram Viewer (here for "European Federation" and here for "Federal Europe"). It's also noteworthy how much more "European Federation" is used compared to its other capitalizations, as shown here. Given this data, what's the rationale for renaming the page? Digressivo (talk) 05:33, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

In a nutshell, because there is no consensus for "Federation" v "federation" (see long discussion above), that it is title with a high risk of confusion with Federalisation of the European Union, and that the term "Federal Europe" is also widely used for this hypothetical or fictional entity. The effect of the change will be that European Federation (and European federation) will continue to "work" by redirection.

Nothing is without risk, of course, and I foresee editors writing working towards a federal Europe, expecting the target to be the federalisation article, but that's why we have hat notes. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 11:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

A further comment: the term "European Federation of" appears in many names. Google suggest European Federation of Journalists, European Federation of Engineering Consultancy Associations, European Federation of Foundation Contractors, European Federation of Chemical Engineering, European Federation of Internal Medicine, European Federation of Allergy and Airways Diseases, European Federation of Periodontology, European Federation for Transport and Environment, European Federation of Psychologists' Associations, European Federation of Building and Woodworkers and many more on the first page alone. Ngram may be misleading. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:36, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Support per previous discussion. As I noted above, Google Books reveals that the term "Federal Europe" has been used in the published literature on European federalism for quite some time. Yes, "European Federation" also appears on Google Books too, but as JMF just pointed out above, a lot of those mentions are coming from organizational titles. --Coolcaesar (talk) 16:16, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Federal Europe

George Washington quote

Proposal

Map

Section "small power" in section "predictions" ist about the EU, not the USE

External links modified

External links modified

Merger Proposal

References

Is there any reliable source that says that the EU Council's nominations of July have the clear intention to establish a US of E?

Merge with 'Federalisation of the European Union' and 'European integration' articles?

Rename article to "European Federalism"

Requested move 21 April 2024

Requested move 30 April 2024

Map of a poll from 2014 regarding the attitude of Member-State citizens on further deepen integration towards an EU state

Fiction section?

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