Talk:Funicular

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This page should be more specifically titled, namely Funicular Railway. The word Funicular is not exclusively used in the context of railways. It has wider use and Funicular Railway is only one use of several. Within the railway community the single word abbreviation may be commonly used, but within the structural engineering community (my own), it is also common to abbreviate Funicular Structure to just Funicular. The term should therefore have its own page so that readers are not confused between architectural "Funicular Structures" and railway applications. This is particularly important due to the fact that Funicular Railways are not actually Funicular Structures whereas suspended Cable Car/Aerial Tramway systems are structurally funicular.

To clarify this, could you please give a simple definition (or cite) for "funicular", as you see it here. Thanks. 23:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

If you check the Wiktionary entry for the word Funicular you will find the general definition Of, pertaining to, resembling, or powered by a rope or cable, together with the railway usage listed as the main noun form. This seems to be quite appropriate and covers the structural engineering usage (which is certainly mostly Funicular Structure rather than just Funicular). The problem with the current naming situation here on Wikipedia will become evident when an article named Funicular Structure exists (I plan to put one together). If the single word Funicular is entered it should disambiguate between the railway and the structural usages, as well as the botanical.

From a structural engineering typology viewpoint a Funicular Structure is a structural configuration which experiences only tensile forces. The main field of application where this is relevant is that of doubly-curved architectural structures. Although the term originates from the idea of hanging ropes, we use it for stressed membranes too. Probably the most well known use of the term in architecture concerns the geometries developed by Antoni Gaudi. These are strictly Inverted Funicular but also called Funicular. The fundamental idea is to hang a network of cables or chains, with weights. This geometry is then inverted and built. The resulting compressive structure will then be in pure compression without bending for the dominant self weight load case. See the third paragraph of (strangely) the Artistic style section of the Gaudi article. In that description the word Catenaric is used rather than Funicular hinting at the relevance of Catenary curves. I've never heard the word Catenaric before, but Funicular is certainly the term of choice. A catenary is funicular, but not all funicular structures are catenaries.

Sorry for not being logged in. It is a long time since I last did and I'll have to look for my username. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.170.196 (talk) 08:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

"If the single word Funicular is entered it should disambiguate between the railway and the structural usages, as well as the botanical."

Not according to usual wiki practice. Funicular railways, having been created first, gets Funicular. Funicular structure is simple enough (although not capitalised as Funicular Structure unless it should be treated as a proper noun). We would then add Funicular (disambiguation) as the {{disambig}} page. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:11, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree strongly. The title should be funicular railway. Surely 'funicular' is just shorthand for 'funicular railway'. Clarity is particularly important when using the term Funicular, as the word has different meanings and significantly the term is often misused, and some dictionaries do not have a correct definition under their 'funicular' entries (eg omitting the requirement of a pair of counterbalancing carriages). Misuse of the term to include any cable car for example is not unexpected funicular's etymology ("given the 1660s, from funicle "a small cord" (1660s), from Latin funiculus "a slender rope," diminutive of funis "a cord, rope," of unknown etymology...").

I propose to change the article title in about a month unless others persuade that it should remain as is in this Talk in the mean time. Glenn.mar.oz (talk) 13:01, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I am a little bit confused by part of this but agree with your opinions regarding the appropriate way to structure the pages, and on the best disambiguation methodology. I, mistakenly, thought that terms which have both general and specific usage are disambiguated with the general term being a disambiguation page. My confusion is with your statement that being first is paramount. Are you sure about this? My interpreation of the Wiki help info is that such terms should have the single word bring up the most appropriate page, which might be a primary topic. Watergate was a good example of this. In the Funicular case the railway application is certainly likely to be the information expected by almost all people searching. Therefore, as it is a clear primary topic it should remain as it is with (in time) just a disambiguation link.

Thanks for the capitalisation correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.132.170.196 (talk) 20:54, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

You may find this useful:
Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Naming_the_specific_topic_articles

AIUI, the rationale behind Wikipedia policies here is based on use cases: how readers might navigate, and minimising the risk of confusing them by where they land. This favours Funicular as the railway, in the idealised case. It's also how we've arrived, by order of page creation. If we weren't already in the idealised state then we might discuss renames, but we would start with this first article as having the simplest name, as an acceptable starting point. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Disagree. Anyone searching 'funicular' will easily & quickly navigate to this article whether it is titled 'Funicular' or 'Funicular railway', whereas the shortened 'Funicular' title has much downsides as I have written above, ie that the term is already mistaken etc and the more specific 'Funicular railway' should help correct this. Glenn.mar.oz (talk) 13:07, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Fact Check

The lead sentence defines a funicular as having a pair of vehicles: there is then the section "Inclined lift" which concerns systems with only one vehicle. There is a separate article Incline elevator (which says that "Unlike a funicular, an incline elevator does not have a passing loop and thus is operated with a single small tram.", which seems an incorrect distinction as plenty of funiculars have two tracks and no passing loops!).

If Inclined lifts are a special kind of Funiculars, then they should get a mention in that lead sentence. If they are something distinctive, then the section in this article should be merged into the existing Incline elevator, the redirects tweaked (Inclinator leads to Funicular at present), and text of both articles modified to show what the distinction is between the two things.

If it helps in discussion, the word "funicular" comes from a word for rope, and the OED defines it as "funicular railway: one worked by a cable and stationary engine; a cable railway", so it seems that the defining characteristic is that the car or cars is/are pulled up by a rope or cable. (And of course some, like the Lynton and Lynmouth Cliff Railway, have no stationary engine but are water-powered.) PamD 07:24, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Then there's Cable railway which says "A cable railway (also known as an incline or inclined plane) is a steeply graded railway that uses a cable or rope to haul trains." and "A specific type of cable railway is the funicular, which is a cable railway with the cars permanently fixed to the cable.[2] Usually funiculars are self-contained and not connected to other railway networks." (with a reference to a German book). That suggests another defining characteristic. PamD 07:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It's all been discussed before, of course: see Talk:Cable_railway#Funiculars.2C_Cable_Cars_.26_Cable_Railways and Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Trains/Archive:_2008,_1#Cable_railways:_a_proposal. PamD 08:05, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree that Incline Elevator section should not be in this article. Was going to edit that section (or add/replace with a new section) with the text below but then read this Talk page so am holding off. This proposed section would be useful as it should help correct this significant common mistake about funiculars, a mistake which does not seem to be described anywhere online (except in this Talk page). An example of such mistakes are probably in Wikipedia's other funicular article List of funicular railways probably contains several items which are not funiculars, based on the evidence that Katoomba's (NSW, AU) Scenic Railway was on the list as a funicular when it is not (I have just edited re that).

Draft incomplete text:

"  : == Incorrect use of the term Funicular ==

  : === Dictionary definitions of Funicular ===
  :Dictionaries commonly give an incomplete or otherwise incorrect definition of funicular.  For example, Collins English Dictionary's definition reads "funicular or a funicular railway is a type of railway which goes up a very steep hill or mountain. A machine at the top of the slope pulls the carriage up the rails by a steel rope". The essential element of a pair of counterbalancing carriages is typically omitted leading to the incorrect belief that any railway up a steep slope is a funicular. [... Followed by list of railway types that are not funicular...] "

Glenn.mar.oz (talk) 12:34, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Fact Check

Is it time for an RfC or whatever? I see edits like this as disruptive. Nor is it acceptable to just blank sources that one doesn't like and claim, "The sources are misinterpreted.". We still have no agreed definitions of either a technical funicular, or the inclusion criteria for this article or the list. To edit-war over other editors like this is not useful and needs to stop.

1. What is a "funicular", for the purposes of WP articles? Is this to be based on WP:RS describing the subject as a funicular, or on WP:OR to judge the subject as whether it meets some set of agreed criteria?

As things are, we seem to have Vаdiм chasing a set of criteria and excluding articles which describe themselves as funiculars throughout, and doing so on the most tenuous of grounds. This has to stop - that's a behavioural problem, not a technical one. Do not disrupt other editors while a discussion to resolve this is still ongoing.

2. What is this technical definition? It is no use parroting "We have the TCQSM source" when that is useful, but still very terse and not a complete definition for all the cases we can see even now.

3. What are our inclusion criteria? What are they (as they're likely to be different) for inclusion in the Funicular article as canonical examples, for describing subjects as "funiculars" in their own articles, and for listing them in the List of funicular railways list article?

In particular, there is the case where a century-old funicular (to the narrowest definition) has been rebuilt since and no longer meets such a narrow definition. Per the general principle of WP of being inclusionist and notability not being temporary, I would see these certainly as belonging to the list article, yet they're being removed one-by-one. If we are removing "Gütsch Funicular" from "List of funiculars", then something is going very wrong somewhere.

Thoughts? Andy Dingley (talk) 11:31, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Actually, after all what was put at the #So, what is a funicular? I'm quite puzzled what else to say... Is it mere WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT?

BTW, What is wrong with the "Gütsch Funicular" from "List of funiculars"? --Vаdiм (talk) 16:13, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

You removed "Gütsch Funicular" from "List of funiculars" here. You gave no reason for this, other than it not meeting your definition of what a funicular is, in some unspecified manner. If you are deciding that subjects like this should not be listed with funiculars, then your "definition" needs serious scrutiny. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:11, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Did you try to make a search on this list? Was it really Gütsch? --Vаdiм (talk) 09:13, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

• I agree, an RfC would be a good way to build consensus instead of this continuous back-and-forth among a few editors. I commented on it a while back and we don't seem to have moved forward since then. –dlthewave ☎ 20:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

• There's a lot to follow in the discussions above so a broader RFC should summarize the positions, but my interpretation of the sources is that anything included as a funicular must have two cars that counterbalance each other. Anything else fits in the broader definition of cable railway or possibly inclined elevator. Reywas92^Talk 18:27, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Summarize Timeline Fact Check

Andy Dingley you may be right with your comment. But consider the diagram of the "Engine-room of a funicular" down below. It's not a drum, but a system of pulleys, isn't it? --Vаdiм (talk) 14:47, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

A user-created image on WP doesn't meet WP:RS. Also that doesn't look like funicular winch gear, it looks like a cable car. Even so, it still demonstrates my basic point: a water-balance funicular will have a single sheave at the top station, with the rope passing over it in a half-turn wrap; but a power-winched funicular needs more engagement with the cable than half a turn. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:40, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Andy Dingley If I understood correctly you reckon that they use a drum where the cable is coiled in a few complete turns around rather than pulleys where the cable doesn't make complete 360°.

Frankly speaking I don't think that a drum would be feasible in this case provided that a funicular needs both ends of the same cable hence the amount of the cable chafe in this case. Once you've mentioned WP:RS do you have any of them for your guess?

As for the pulleys then the Giessbach harvnb error: no target: CITEREFGiessbach (help) source clearly mentiones the vertical drive disk with three driving grooves (also the photos at the page 5 there). Incidentally cable car installations usually use horizontal pulleys which provides a natural spacing between the incoming and outgoing branches of a cable.

Albeit the diagram in question doesn't makes a note of its source it's apparently represents a common engine layout of a modern funicular. Please have a look, for example, at the engine room of the Pfaffenthal-Kirchberg funicular (a fully fledged double funicular). The Petrin funicular is also using pulleys in its engine compartment.

The last but not the least is an illustration from an article about a funicular from the old (1986) Russian popular science magazine which closely resembles the diagram in question. Also you may also have a look through some photos at the commons:Category:Funicular engine rooms. File:Como–Brunate funicular October 2012 12.jpg is one of them.--Vаdiм (talk) 11:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Looks like this matter is quite clear. --Vаdiм (talk) 10:40, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

The linked article on lift is about aerodynamic or hydrodynamic lift: aerolanes or hydrofoil boats. I think that it is not relevant.

If reference 3, the TCQSM, defines a relevant kind of lift, then I have not found it.

At least partly agreeing with some discussion above, the haul rope has to go somewhere when the car is up, and I assume that it goes around a single-ended drum moved by external power, so I assume that the relevant concept is a single-ended winch onto a drum. Unfortunately, there is no clear explanation of this in Wikipedia, because it is mixed up with inline winching, and double-ended winching with counterweights.

ArthurDent006.5 (talk) 01:30, 26 July 2025 (UTC)