Talk:Generalissimo

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Simon Bolivar

Why not include Simon Bolivar who is also a fellow liberator of Generalissimo Jose de San Martin?, Simon Bolivar has Marshal Sucre as his Aide-de-camp (as stated here in this page that Generalissimos outrank Field Marshals and other 5 star ranks), isn't Bolivar qualified to be included in this list of Generalissimos? RA9Markus (talk) 20:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

We just need a citation that says he help such a rank. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Karl Philip of Schwarzenburg

on the wikipedia page of Karl Philip of Schwarzenburg itself it is said that he is a Field Marshal, but no "Generalissimo" was mentioned, so Im wondering why he is here in the Generalissimo page if in reality his rank is actually Field Marshal? MaharlikanBoi (talk) 01:28, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

I found two citation that refer to him as generalissimo: here and here. I will add one of them to the article. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 04:51, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

The 3 Japanese Emperors (Meiji, Taisho, Hirohito)

These three emperors of Japan held a rank that is the same as a Generalissimo, it is called "Dai-Gensui" which is higher than a Field Marshal, The main wikipedia page of Dai-Gensui directly states that the aforementioned rank is the same as a Generalissimo, shall we add them here in the list too? RA9Markus (talk) 04:50, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

There is an article about this Dai-gensui. It seems ceremonial as these three were nobles who did not actually lead the military. The president of the United States and other world leaders are considered "commanders in chief", but not added to the list. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:22, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
Well, as for the Presidents of the United States are not military leaders, they do have the title as "Commander In Chief" but that is not a rank, its a designation, meanwhile "Dai-Gensui" is a legitimate rank for the 3 Emperors, tho not completely ceremonial since the Emperors still have powers based on the Meiji Constitution, having veto powers, exercising executive authority, appointing and removing officials from positions, and of course was granted supreme control of both the army and navy, Emperor Hirohito himself could have prevented Japan from joining the Axis and also a war against the US since he has the power to decline but because of his approval, Japan joined the war, on November 5, 1941, he had imperial conference about the operations of the war against the west, and had many meetings with his prime minister, Hideki Tojo, on how the war will be carried, this can be read on the main wikipedia page of Emperor Hirohito. RA9Markus (talk) 04:22, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
Veto power is a political power and not an indication that these three were military leaders. If the criteria we use for inclusion on this list is too broad it will seem bloated and random. See WP:LISTCRITERIA. We should limit it to military leaders who were promoted to the rank or a few who were referred to historically as a generalissimo . Basically people who were famous as a generalissimo, not something else and incidentally also a generalissimo sorta kinda. I am already unhappy with some of the entries. That said, if you can present citations that say specifically that these three were generalissimos, then you can add them to the list. Perhaps consider putting all three on the same line, not separate entries for each. I won't remove them. But if others come along and establish consensus that these should not be on the list, they will be removed to keep the list concise. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 22:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
The sources I found is all based on the main wikipedia page of "Dai-Gensui" like this source "https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/11605700" and there are other more with the same context that show similar information with the main Dai-Gensui Wikipedia page, but as we could see, the Dai-Gensui page mentioned that it is equivalent to a Generalissimo, and also, we could notice, it is also similar and equivalent with other Generalissimos with different language, like Korean's Taewonsu and China's Dai Yuan Shuai which is also listed here in the main Generalissimo wikipedia page, in these east asian languages, they're influenced together and have similar patterns such as the prefix Dai- in Japanese, Tae- on Korean and Da- in Chinese, the prefix refers to the word after it that it is supreme or utmost level, and we know that in this case, it is referring to a rank to the highest degree or level, which is a Generalissimo but in different language, if we couldn't consider the three japanese emperors as Generalissimos despite of having equivalent and same rank with other Generalissimo's like Taewonsu and Da Yuan Shuai, then we should also remove those Generalissimos in this page with the rank of Taewonsu and Da yuan shuai. RA9Markus (talk) 06:32, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
I could agree with removal of equivalent ranks, however those people were specifically referred to in books and/or the press as generalissimos. I have updated their citations. I also added a citation needed to the Dai-gensui's Wikipedia article's assertion that it is equivalent to generalissimo. By the way, the 3 Emperors are mentioned in Highest military ranks#Japan. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 08:20, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
https://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat16/sub108/item508.html
I found this source which directly mentions Emperor Hirohito as a Generalissimo, "god-king-generalissimo" to be exact, which is usual since Emperors of Japan from Meiji to Hirohito are seen as Divine Gods that descended from God Amaterasu in the Japanese society. RA9Markus (talk) 11:41, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
That source is self published (see WP:SELFPUB) by Jeff Hays. However your persistence inspired me to look a bit myself. I found Hirohito And The Making Of Modern Japan by Herbert P. Bix. I might get around to adding it in the week or so. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:27, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Okay, I added Hirohito. Let me know if changes need to be made. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:22, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
Shouldn't the other two emperors of Japan, Meiji and Taisho, be included too? Since they have the same rank that Hirohito has, it is logical if we include the predecessors of the same rank holder. RA9Markus (talk) 09:50, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
https://www.meisterdrucke.uk/fine-art-prints/Blaise-Nicolas-Le-Sueur/1080303/The-Japanese-Emperor-Meiji-(1852-1912)-wearing-Generalissimo-uniform,-photograph-by-Farsari,-from-L'Illustrazione-Italiana,-Year-XXII,-No-1,-January-6.html
I found this, not sure if this can be considered as a source but it refers to the uniform of Emperor Meiji as a "Generalissimo uniform" the same uniform Emperor Hirohito wore as the formal military attire during his time and his father's reign. RA9Markus (talk) 09:53, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
I am still reluctant. It is not a question of is it logical to assume they are Generalissimos, but was the word "Generalissimo" used specifically to referred to them historically. The citation you found is the picture used in the Emperor Meiji article. It attributed to Edoardo Chiossone and is used on his article page as well. The citation you gave attributes Blaise Nicholas Le Sueur so I would call it unreliable. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 14:33, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Jose Maria Morelos and Agustin Iturbide

Two Mexicans, the first one is Jose Maria Morelos who succeeded Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla (which is here in this page) as the leader of the army that is initially led by Miguel Hidalgo himself, sources is these two: https://www.cultura.gob.mx/dgai/noticias-detalle/?id=43828&orden=1&ln=en

https://www.factmonster.com/encyclopedia/people/history/mexican/morelos-y-pavon-jose-maria

While the other Mexican is the first emperor of Mexico, namely Agustin Iturbide, the one who ultimately liberated Mexico from the Spanish Empire, the sources is here: https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=sdHQPYcfj48C&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=agustin+iturbide+Generalissimo&source=bl&ots=zF5E4PEWNl&sig=ACfU3U1psDo2RCdM4sL41JIg8-LtywhYHw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjynsrr7NL4AhWOCYgKHfnXC3UQ6AF6BAg3EAI#v=onepage&q=agustin%20iturbide%20Generalissimo&f=false

https://www.jstor.org/stable/157498

https://txarchives.org/smu/finding_aids/00127.xml

https://artsandculture.google.com/story/m%C3%A9xico-200-years-the-birth-of-a-nation-archivo-general-de-la-nacion/LgXhw4b3GIto7w?hl=en

https://chestofbooks.com/reference/American-Cyclopaedia-1/Agustin-De-Iturbide.html

Do you think this is reliable, and shall we add them here in the list of Generalissimos? RA9Markus (talk) 11:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

That all looks great. I went ahead and added them. Well done! Richard-of-Earth (talk) 20:11, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Generalissimos with marshal rank

Im now hesitating and somewhat regretting adding hirohito, and also if we should keep east asian (no racism here, im an asian myself) and french generalissimos due to how their term works and function, like marshal is included in their title of "grand marshal" and no "general" is included in it with the exception of chiang kai shek's that has "jiang" which is the literal translation of "general" but how about the others that has "marshal" in their rank, like da yuan shuai, taewonsu, daigensui, which all includes the title of "marshal"

because if we consider "grand marshal" as generalissimos, then does Antonio Jose de Sucre, gran mariscal de ayacucho (grand marshal of ayacucho) is a generalissimo? And other marshals with the equivalence of that, also for the french, I dont get it how were they included when they literally hold the rank of "marshal" and not "generalissimo" and their commands is not somewhere near of a generalissimo too, any thoughts about this? RA9Markus (talk) 14:03, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Difficult to say. I would prefer that only people known for being a generalissimo be listed. Looking at much earlier versions of the article, the list was only created to give some examples of famous generalissimos, but it turned into an attempt to be a list of every person who might possible be seen as a generalissimo. Applying Wikipedia's policies on having sources only narrowed it down to people who at least once referred to as a generalissimo. With people insisting we must have a world view so we should include people who were never generalissimos, but had some equivalent rank in another language the list has gotten longer. Taking a further step back one must ask is the article necessary at all. WP:Wikipedia is not a dictionary. The article body is a whopping four paragraphs. Admiralissimo is worse with just one paragraph and and a seven entry list. I suppose it comes down to what makes the list useful. Does a particular addition add to the usefulness or not. I guess really this is the only list on Wikipedia that has singular officers who outranked all other officers in a particular armed force. Maybe we should think of spinning the list off to a stand along list and give it some name and criteria that makes a more useful list. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:11, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
So, are we gonna remove some generalissimos that includes "marshal" in their rank or keep them in the list?
If the criteria we'll have is the former option, then we'll start removing the east asian generalissimos and the french generalissimos that has "marshal" as their rank?
RA9Markus (talk) 15:57, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't answer your question, I just ranted. At this point, if they have a citation that says they were referred to as a generalissimo, them they should be on the list. If they have no citation, one should check the article for a mention of generalissimo and a citation supporting it. I do not care to make judgment calls beyond citation being suitable and does it in fact say generalissimo. If we try excluding people because they do not seem generalissimo enough, then it is going to lead to silly arguments. Later perhaps I will take the time to review the entries on the list. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:35, 8 July 2022 (UTC)
But isn't it contradicting if we keep people listed here with a marshal rank which is widely accept by everyone, especially for the french generalissimos that holds the dignity rank of "marshal" and the rank of divisional general (major general) that was not even near of a generalissimo's? RA9Markus (talk) 06:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
Searches in Google Books show each of these have several references as generalissimo:
If we remove them, at some point people will come to the page and say "Look at all these citations! Put them back!". Logic matters little on Wikipedia, citations matter. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 17:39, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

Maximo Gomez

Dominican-born Military leader participating in three different wars, the most famous of which is the cuban war of independence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A1ximo_G%C3%B3mez His rank indicates as "Generalissimo" RA9Markus (talk) 07:29, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done Richard-of-Earth (talk) 06:04, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

South Korea

Joseph Stalin

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