Talk:Iroquois

August "Auggie" Schellenberg also starred in "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" as Sitting Bull for which he received an Emmy nomination. 152.37.134.228 (talk) 18:31, 4 July 2025 (UTC)

One article for the Iroquois Confederacy, another one for the activities of the Iroquois post confederacy. -FelineHerder (talk) 19:01, 12 August 2025 (UTC)

The Confederacy still exists, so I don't think "post confederacy" is correct. But there is a broader point here that this article is trying to do too much. I would think that this article should be about the Iroquois Confederacy, not the people that comprise it. On this page, there is too much about things like medicine and spiritual beliefs. Those are not relevant for the confederacy, only for its people. I would prefer to see that at Iroquoian peoples. A good comparison is the European Union article. On that page, things like sports are covered only to the extent that the EU itself sets policies. --GoldCoastPrior (talk) 16:59, 23 February 2026 (UTC)

I propose removing the tag about the length of the article. It was added in January 2025 but no topic was opened on the talk page to discuss it. Here are some page lengths for comparison: United States of America 366,000, Lithuania 299,000, Bhutan 206,000, Andorra 151,000. I don't think the Haudenosaunee Nation, at 23,000, is a problem.

The biggest subtopic would probably be "Society". However, a substantial portion of that information would have to remain to do justice to the overall topic. So it doesn't really make sense.

As for splitting it, should "United States" be split between pre civil war and post civil war?

If you are monitoring the lock on this page and agree with me, please remove the tag.

Humpster (talk) 22:38, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

Page size is calculated in readable prose. Andorra weighs in at 8.5k words of readable prose, Bhutan at 11.1k, Lithuania 13.7k, United States 12.6. This article is 23.4 k - 10k more than the next largest of the comparators listed, and well over the 15k WP:SIZERULE indicates an article "almost certainly should be divided or trimmed". Nikkimaria (talk) 22:44, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

The tag is about prose text size of 23407 word. What constitutes "too long" varies by situation, but generally 50 kilobytes of readable prose (8,000 words) is the starting point at which articles may be considered too long.....so in other words this page is almost triple of what we recommend.

The examples you're giving are half the size....

Lithuania has 13781 words

The United States has 12637 words....etc

I suggest reviewing WP:SIZERULE....

And perhaps turn on the tools so you can see this.

Preferences → Gadgets → Browsing → Prosesize: add a toolbox link to show the size of and number of words in a page (direct link), and then save. Moxy🍁 22:50, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

Picking this up, to reduce this article size, it should be easy enough to have the current "History" section spun out into an independent article, and then condense the history section in this article, while pointing to the new "History of the Iroquois" article as the main article for that topic. I've not looked at "Society" yet as suggested by Humpster, but a similar set of actions may be possible. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 17:22, 30 October 2025 (UTC)

History now has it's own article, and after some attempts at trimming in this article, the readable prose has reduced from 23,403 words to 21,191 words (-2,212). -- Cdjp1 (talk) 16:05, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Iroquois is a colonial name. ~2026-43954-3 (talk) 22:47, 20 January 2026 (UTC)

The fact that "Iroquois" is a colonial name is stated in the article itself. The reason this name is used as the article title rather than Haudenosaunee is due to the policy of WP:COMMONNAME. There are many other examples of nations or countries that are more commonly known by an exonym than their native name. -888Zitong888 (talk) 08:57, 29 January 2026 (UTC) 888Zitong888 (talk) 08:57, 29 January 2026 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Change Iroquois to Haudenosaunee ~2026-16401-09 (talk) 00:23, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

 Not done –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:54, 16 March 2026 (UTC)

It has been proposed in this section that Iroquois be renamed and moved to HaudenosauneeHaudenosaunee. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Iroquois → HaudenosauneeHaudenosaunee – Per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes). The names an ethnic group or Indigenous government self-identifies should be considered If their autonym is commonly used in English, it would be the best article title. 'Haudenosaunee' is clearly their preferred name name and is common in English, a search of gscholar since 2020 shows 13,300 hits for 'Haudenosaunee' slightly lower than the 15,800 hits for 'Iroquois' over the same period. blindlynx 19:32, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

• Comment This was previously discussed in 2020, in 2022, and in 2023; what exactly has changed since? If the answer is "nothing", I would recommend withdrawing this RM. 162 etc. (talk) 20:11, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

The gap has closed significantly since last time in 2015 to 2020 the ratio was 15,700 to 6,300 on gscholar [], [] to 15,800 to 13,300 in the last five years. It's becoming very clear that 'Haudenosaunee' is common in English and it's time we actually applied out naming convention guidelines to this—blindlynx 13:27, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

• Comment: Ngram usage (past 50 years) shows the current name much more common. I also see substantial self-usage of "Iroquois" by the people who are suggested to find it undesirable, and the family of languages seems to be called Iroquoian languages. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:34, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

  Nagram data ends in 2022 and gscholar hits suggests the gap has closed significantly since then. —blindlynx 23:39, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

  Extrapolation is fraught with peril, and very flat for the last four years of that data, with a usage ratio of nearly 5:1. That's pretty dominant. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:49, 14 April 2026 (UTC)

I did a quick search of Gscholar hits by year for both and it's a lot finer grain than Ngrams it also paints a clear picture of use in high quality sources

More information Year, Iroquois ...

GScholar hits by year

Year	Iroquois	Haudenosaunee
2015	3,700	668
2016	3,870	877
2017	3,630	856
2018	3,370	1,050
2019	3,690	1,240
2020	3,720	1,650
2021	3,560	1,970
2022	3,510	2,390
2023	3,420	2,480
2024	2,950	2,520
2025	3,030	2,550
2026 (partial)	601	562

Close

—blindlynx 18:16, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

• The name of a language group is not a good place to pull the name of a people or polity. Need we look at how the English, Scots, and Dutch are not called Germans? Or the history of the name of the Eskaleut language family and the changing names of the Inuit and related groups? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:58, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose as a perennial rehash of former rejected arguments, with no demonstrable change in long-term usage. Iroquois is more widely used and recognized, probably by a wide margin. It's not generally regarded as offensive, and is typically used by a high percentage of those it describes; from what I read, "Haudenosaunee" is used by only some of the same people, and then often interchangeably with "Iroquois", or with more specific meanings. Very little can be gleaned from limited, short-term samples of very recent usage; a long-term trend would be more useful, and the last few years aren't nearly long enough to show that. It's also not enough that "Haudenosaunee" is more widely used than it was in the past; it needs to be the predominant form, given the historical usage of "Iroquois". At this point, that appears to be far from the case. P Aculeius (talk) 05:37, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

  This comment states that Haudenosaunee "needs to be the predominant form", but I don't see as a requirement in Wikipedia:ETHNICGROUP. Further, it is easy to find examples where historical forms are more popular as general words, but Wikipedia still uses the newer form for the community. As an example, Ho-Chunk is used on Wikipedia rather than "Winnebago". Google Trends still shows "Winnebago" as a more common term, in part because of place names and popular usage of the term "Winnebago", just as is the case with "Iroquois" (e.g., "Iroquois County, Illinois", "Iroquois" the neighborhood in Louisville). We still made the change to Ho-Chunk. See comments below on how journalists prefer "Haudenosaunee", in some cases exclusively. GoldCoastPrior (talk) 20:31, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

  WP:COMMONNAME would seem to be the relevant guideline, when the most widely-used term for a particular topic is not generally regarded as inaccurate or offensive. Since "Iroquois" is still widely used as a term of self-identification, changing the title of this article to a name that most people will not recognize or search for is not ideal. P Aculeius (talk) 14:57, 16 April 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose This comes up at least annually. I don't think at the present time most people would recognize Haudenosaunee, let alone spell it correctly. This would only be a nitpicky change anyhow, since Haudenosaunee is a redirect to Iroquois, and both are mentioned in the lead and various places throughout the article. Peter Flass (talk) 17:15, 15 April 2026 (UTC)
• Support: Journalists use "Haudenosaunee" more often than "Iroquois." You can see yourself, or review some of my examples: there are many articles about the Haudenosaunee men's national lacrosse team. Their uniforms say "Haudenosaunee". The Biden White House referred to them exclusively as Haudenosaunee in this 2025 statement. Reporting used the same convention as the White House, e.g., here. "Haudenosaunee" is not limited to sports; this 2024 Condé Nast article uses "Haudenosaunee", as does this 2026 article on land returns. When Wikipedia changed from "Burma" to "Myanmar," many of the arguments were about how the term was used in the media (see discussion here) —⁠ GoldCoastPrior (talk) 20:18, 15 April 2026 (UTC)

Support per nom, tbh I’m surprised, but Scholar hits (though not perfect) are much more reliable than ngrams (which includes all kinds of crap). Kowal2701 (talk, contribs) 10:09, 16 April 2026 (UTC)