Talk:Jonbar hinge

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For B-class

Things necessary for this article to be a B-class:

  • Supporting materials
  • A section of examples in alternate history works
  • Perhaps expanding the article a bit

-- Imperator3733 (talk) 16:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem with examples is that if you take a jonbar hinge's original meaning you have virtually an infinite number of jonbar hinges to choose from since it could be something as simple as writing something down with a pen or a pencil. If you take the broader meaning used today this makes a jonbar hinge indistinguishable from a point of divergence. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 16:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The Matrix

Would the famous scene in the Matrix with the red and blue pill be considered a Jonbar Hinge? If so, should it be added as an example? ForestAngel (talk) 20:23, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

If you can find a source that says it is then yes, but to simply add it without a source is OR. Zombie Hunter Smurf (talk) 21:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

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Should point of divergence redirect here?

Point of divergence used to redirect to Alternate history#Time travel to create historical divergences , it was recently deleted. I recreated it pointing to Alternate history#Definitions (plus that article uses that concept a lot), but arguably, it is a concept that has stand-alone notability. I thought about creating it - then realized we have an article on Jonbar Point (as the concept is known The Encyclopedia of Science Fiction, ). It seems to me that this may be a better redirect target, although I am also wondering if " point of divergence" isn't a more popular concept and if this shouldn't be renamed? Pinging RfD participants: @Aaron Liu, Deacon Vorbis, Myceteae, and J947: . I noticed (just now) that J947 suggested a redirect to point here, and Aaron Liu disagreed. My reading of SFE is that Jonbar point is a term used in the context of tiem travel stories, and point of divergence, in alternate histories, but other than that they refer to the same concept. (pinging also User:TompaDompa, who is well-versed in relevant sources). PS. I did a lit review below (at least, spend 1h+), and it seems very clear that Jonbar point is a synonym for point of divergence, and it is also not the most popular term (title of SFE article nonwithstanding; I'll email its editors shortly. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:35, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

PS. Technical note: Spanish Wikipedia is the only one with separate articles, preventing wikdiata merger of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q6275015 and https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3592925. I proposed a merger at es:Discusión:Evento_divergente#fusionar_este_artículo_con_Punto_Jonbar. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:49, 7 March 2026 (UTC)
For reference, here is the WP:RFD discussion that resulted in this redirect being deleted: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2026 February 3#Point of divergence. For my part, I was not familiar with this terminology and I lost track of the discussion after my contribution. Having now read the subsequent RFD contributions and the analysis above, I see that there is more to the issue. I have no strong opinion as to what is the best course of action here. If the term is used to describe essentially the same concept in alternate histories and time travel fiction, it would seem that a standalone article covering this usage makes the most sense. In the meantime, a hatnote could be added to the current target or Jonbar hinge could be explicitly discussed and linked to within the target section. I see that an RM has been started below. That is a reasonable approach to furthering the discussion this terminology. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 01:55, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

Point of divergence as a synonym to Jonbar hinge/point

I looked at RS mentioning both concepts:

  • Most relevant is, I think, this, from the recent, 2019 academic book: "Other terminologies worth exploring here refer to a mechanism of the alternate history: the moment at which the historical narrative separates from our own timeline. In some science fiction scholarship this is referred to as the ‘Jonbar Hinge’, a reference to Jack Williamson’s short story... the usefulness of the term can now be called into question given that the relevance of Williamson’s story to the rapidly growing and evolving canon of alternate history fiction has significantly diminished, not least because it roots the scholarship of the genre in the study of science fiction when, as we have already seen, alternate history spans a wider field of literature. As such, scholars have sought alternative terminology. Finding the Jonbar Hinge to be ‘confusing and unwieldly’, Hellekson refers to a nexus point, borrowing the term from author Poul Anderson who employs it in many of his novels (The Alternate History 6). In most cases this book uses ‘point of divergence’ in reference to this moment, adhering to the trend of moving away from Jonbar as a reference, whilst also acknowledging the acronym POD used as a shorthand by the alternate history fan community" (p.21, from Introduction chapter by Glyn Morgan and C. Palmer-Patel).
    • also from that book: "These are both fine books and convincing alternate histories – but they deal with relatively familiar and well-explored historical turning points, indeed jonbar hinges explored by the author..." or "And ultimately, what does these changes, these points of divergences, the jonbar hinge, tell us about our current reality?"
  • From even newer 2024 The New Routledge Companion to Science Fiction (Aternate history" chapter by previously cited Glyn Morgan, even more strongly worded): "The moments of fracture within timelines, where the path departs from the one not taken, are known by various names. Some scholarship uses the term ‘Jonbar Hinge’, a dated and unnecessarily obtuse reference to Jack Williamson ‘The Legion of Time’ (1938), which features a split between two possible realities caused by character John Barr. If this term was ever a useful shorthand, its moment has surely passed." (p. 286)
  • : "point of divergence (sometimes called a nexus or jonbar point)"
  • "Similar to the term ‘alternate history’, there are many existing terms for ‘point of divergence ’. ²⁴" and from footnote 24: " In Collins’s study, for example, the term ‘Jonbar hinge’ is used, derived from Jack Williamson’s novel The Legion of Time ( Paths Not Taken 211). Alfonso Merelo Solá’s bibliography of alternate histories written in Spain (369–376) adapts this term as well ( punto Jumbar ). Hellekson and Gallagher prefer ‘nexus’ or ‘nexus event’; Otten also adopts this term, but broadens it to a point at which it becomes metaphorical: ‘crossroads’ or ‘ bifurcation ’ in general, i.e. beyond its genre specific meaning (cf. Otten); Dannenberg , in examining as a kind of counterfactual , chooses the term favoured by philosophy, ‘antecedent’ (53). Nedelkovich, whose study is organized by the examination of several different aspects (adapting several terms of Russian Formalism), includes among the sections ‘fabula’, ‘sujets’, ‘titles and graphic arrangement of text’, ‘dynamics of relationships between histories’, ‘the alternative-history contents’, ‘characters’, ‘linguistic aspects’ and ‘deep structure’, a chapter on ‘turning points’. ..."
  • : the chapter on Alternate History in uses the Jonbar point: "“What if the world were different?” In the alternate history, a historical moment (a “nexus point” or “Jonbar hinge,” the latter coined in Jack Williamson’s The Legion of Time (1938)) is altered and the author explores the consequences of this divergence." From the chapter (I have the book): "A great number of alternate histories focus on warcraft and battles... granting great influence to the Jonbar hinges of specific battles". Also in that book, from the chapter "TIME, POSSIBLE WORLDS, AND COUNTERFACTUALS" : "The prioritization of time when thinking about sf’s alternative versions of history comes, perhaps in part, from the fact that a specific moment of divergence from actual history frequently underpins these fictions." then quotes another author introducing the Jonbar point concept "Sf writers have come to call these decisive moments “Jonbar points”; they range from the non-arrival of the comet which caused the extinction of the dinosaurs (Harry Harrison’s West of Eden, 1984) to the non-occurrence of the Protestant Reformation (Kingsley Amis’s The Alteration, 1976)."
  • : "Alternative history is a type of storytelling... This deviation in the historical outcomes, representing the basis of the alternative history tale, has been defined by critics as point of divergence, jonbar point or as nexus point. "
  • TVTropes is unreliable, but even it states in https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PointOfDivergence "an older name for this trope is "Jonbar hinge" ".

I could do more, but I think two conclusions are clear, namely that 1) point of divergence is a notable concept and 2) Jonbar hinge means the same, but is a less popular term that some scholars argue is obsolete (and I concur, subjectively - in my readings it is not that common) Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:24, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

PS. SFE entry on the Jonbar point has been updated with some of the suggestions I sent to the editors. Notably, it now says ""Jonbar hinge", "nexus point" and "point of divergence" have also been used synonymously." Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:33, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Requested move 10 March 2026

Jonbar hinge → point of divergencepoint of divergence – Per my analysis at #Should point of divergence redirect here? and sources directly above at #Point of divergence as a synonym to Jonbar hinge/point; TL;DR - the new name is more common and recent scholarship calls the old (current) name obsolete Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:36, 10 March 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 03:14, 17 March 2026 (UTC)

See also: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2026 February 3#Point of divergence, which I linked to in the discussion above. —Myceteae‍🍄‍🟫 (talk) 01:57, 11 March 2026 (UTC)

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