Talk:Khmelnytsky Uprising

This could use a source. Especially as the entire Commonwalth population was ~10,000,000, and I think the Jewish % was around 7-8% of total population. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 09:41, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Subtelny's Ukraine: a History (p.127–128) says

Within a few months, almost all Polish nobles, officials, and priests had been wiped out or driven from Ukraine. Jewish losses were especially heavy because they were the most numerous and accessible representatives of the szlachta regime. Between 1648 and 1656, tens of thousands of Jews—given the lack of reliable data, it is impossible to establish more accurate figures—were killed by the rebels, and to this day the Khmelnytsky uprising is considered by Jews to be one of the most traumatic events in their history.

This passage is endnoted with the following (sorry for the long quotation):

Estimates of Jews killed in the uprising have been greatly exaggerated in the historiography of the event. According to B. Weinryb, the total of losses reported in Jewish sources is 2.4 million to 3.3 million deaths, clearly a fantastic figure. Weinryb cites the calculations of S. Ettinger indicating that about 50,000 Jews lived in the area where the uprising occurred. See B. Weinryb, "The Hebrew Chronicles on Bohdan Khmelnytsky and the Cossack-Polish War," Harvard Ukrainian Studies 1 (1977): 153-77. While many of them were killed, Jewish losses did not reach the hair-raising figures that are often associated with the uprising. In the words of Weinryb (The Jews of Poland, 193-4), "The fragmentary information of the period—and to a great extent information from subsequent years, including reports of recovery—clearly indicate that the catastrophe may have not been as great as has been assumed."

—Michael Z. 2005-06-8 15:56 Z

I am unaware of any source citing a figure as large as 1,000,000 Jews killed (The entire Jewish population in Eastern Europe at the time was only ~1,300,000!). Most sources, such as Berel Wein's Triumph of Survival, cite "Jewish chronicles" for the figure of well over 300 Jewish communities destroyed and almost 100,000 Jews killed. The largest figure I have seen cited by a reputable historical source is in The Jew in the Modern World (Oxford University Press). It claimed that the uprising "left in its wake hundreds of thousands of of Jewish dead, and, according to one witness, 744 Jewish communities destroyed." However, this figure is not typically found in most authoritative historical studies. In fact while the Jewish Encyclopedia considers the "744" figure "unreliable," it does cite "chronicles" which state that approximately 500,000 Jews were killed . HKT 19:23, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tnx for the sources. We could use estimates of Poles and Cossacks deathtoll as well - I will also try to look up something. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:41, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

@StephanSnow Your sources seem to be taken from random websites. These aren't reliable sources. There are tons of books and all that go into depth on this. Random webpages personally do not seem sufficient for this. This is a rather forced result, going with "successful uprising" when the sources given are lackluster at best. Setergh (talk) 21:24, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

And if we're going by that, this [1] says that "There is no clear ending to the Khmelnytsky Uprising", which I personally think means inconclusive. Setergh (talk) 21:26, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

This seems to be talking about it from the long-term perspective. "Immediate" result would be the ending of Polish-Lithuanian rule and emergence of Cossack Hetmanate, which was used to describe the uprising as successful in the sources I cited. StephanSnow (talk) 05:07, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

I personally don't think this makes the source invalid, but perhaps. Setergh (talk) 17:20, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Frank Sysyn is a historian, and Joseph Cataliotti holds educational degrees related to history.

Sunday Diplomat article has a link to wider historical analysis paper which cites various historical books

"Who Made Ukraine's Independence?" Page 3:

• "The distinctive quality of the Khmelnytsky Uprising as the first successful Cossack revolt after a series of failures has led many historians to conclude that Khemelnytsky’s role as a leader was the most important factor."

Note that these sources were also published in 2023 and 2024, so a more recent analysis on the uprising that describe it as a success can be different from the previous ambiguous view of it. StephanSnow (talk) 05:06, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

The Sunday Diplomat publishes award-winning student journalism, wouldn't say it's a good source to use.

Frank Sysyn has Ukrainian origin, which of course doesn't make his source invalid, but I do think is worth mentioning. It also very barely goes into detail, simply calling it successful (although yes, he does seem to specialise in Polish and Ukrainian history).

Joseph Cataliotti is indeed highly qualified, though not specifically on this topic (World History is his degree).

Honestly, I suppose these sources aren't bad in the slightest, although I don't think they go in depth enough and yes, they are indeed very modern takes. But I don't have enough to disprove or go against such claims, so I doubt I'll do anything about it. So overall, fair enough. Setergh (talk) 17:31, 19 March 2025 (UTC)

Hello everyone, due to the change in the results window, I will authorize a discussion about this in advance to avoid a war of edits. @StephanSnow, @Historyk.ok, @Setergh, @Nihil novi nisi. Dushnilkin (talk) 09:14, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

I had a discussion about result with Setergh 4 days ago. There haven't been disputes related to this since then.

I know we shouldn't be appealing to another Wikipedia, but just pointing out that several foreign Wikipedia articles agree on this being the result. StephanSnow (talk) 10:06, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

I think we need to get more participants involved in this regard. Besides, your dispute with Setergh did not go in the key that is needed on the Wiki, we need use more RS to determine the result. Dushnilkin (talk) 10:09, 23 March 2025 (UTC)

There are two issues with this formulation: first, the geographical name "Ukraine" was widely used for the lands where the uprising took place already during the 17th century (see Beauplan's map for example). Secondly, present-day Ukraine also includes many lands which were not ruled by the Hetmanate, so the definition is once again misleading. Skoropadsky (talk) 02:34, 5 December 2025 (UTC)

Would "in the territories of central Ukraine" be a better description? StephanSnow (talk) 02:37, 5 December 2025 (UTC)