Talk:Laugharne

Per WP:ELPOINTS no. 2, I have removed the following inline external links from the History section of the article:

• prehistoric humans
• Coygan Bluff
• quarrying
• a long occupation sequence
• summit of the hill
• Iron Age
• 6th century AD.

--Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:46, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Leucariwm (now Laugharne) was a Roman station on the Via Julia which was carried along the coast from Moridunum (now Carmarthen) to Isca Silurum (now Caerleon).^[1]

An editor has reverted my above addition to the History section on the following grounds:

“Not credible as Laugharne is not on any reasonable route from Carmarthen to Caerleon, very old source. I can't find any reference to Roman road remains in Laugharne on Coflein.”

I think its removal is unjustified. Laugharne had a Roman fort which was linked by land to their other centres. Castellae and villas were not actually physically on the main route of 'Via Julia' but connected to it.That designation, as with other Roman Roads, refers to the entire linear network. Coflein records only those parts of the Via Julia for which there is surviving archaeological evidence and actually new discoveries in south west Wales is currently a growth area.

The source cited is indeed old but is from the reliable and peer-reviewed journal of the British Archaeological Association and has not been contradicted as far as I know. Unless it has there is no reason for it being discounted as far as I can see.

Do others disagree that the reversion should be undone pending evidence showing the passage to be inaccurate?

Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 08:53, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

First, just to correct a typo: the placename as given by Picton is Leucarium not Leucariwm (i.e. Latin not Welsh). Second, I have checked this in Rivet, A. L. F.; Smith, Colin (1979). The Place-Names of Roman Britain. London: Batsford. pp. 174, 388–389.. They give the name in the form Leucarum, and source it to Iter XII of the Antonine Itinerary: they identify it as "probably" Loughor, Glamorgan, and derive it from the river-name Leuca, the modern River Loughor. See also Leucarum, which makes the same identification. Rivet & Smith admit a margin of doubt, and offer Hendy as another possibility, but not Laugharne. Third, Picton's Via Julia runs Moridunum–Leucariwm–Nidum–Isca Silurum; which he interprets as Carmarthen–Laugharne–Neath–Caerleon. That is clearly nonsense, given that Laugharne lies well to the (south-)west of Carmarthen, and suggests that the name may actually be a misprint, and not even what Picton intended. So all in all, despite the JBAA being a respectable and authoritative journal, I think on this point it's pretty clearly out of date and in error, and should be ignored. (As far as I can see, the name Via Julia is also pretty outmoded: I see it's used on some Coflein records for a road roughly along the line of the A40, but I can't find it used in any more general modern sources on Roman Britain, and I'm unclear where it originates.) GrindtXX (talk) 16:08, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

That's very clear, @Verbcatcher:'s reversion was fully justified. Thank you both for taking the time to check my edit. Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 18:10, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

My Roman Britain (Map) (Fourth ed.). 1:625 000. Southampton: Ordnance Survey. 1991 [1978]. ISBN 0-319-29025-5. shows Roman roads running west from CICVCIVM (doubtfully identified as Y Gaer) to MORIDVNVM (Carmarthen) and south-west to NIDVM (Neath); but there is no direct road connecting Moridunum with Nidum; however, there is a fort between them at LEVCARVM (Loughor). Further west there is a fortlet at modern Tavernspite, but it's not given a Roman name. I suspect that this was very much a frontier area. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:29, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Note addressing a couple of points made above. The now reverted edit was based on a secondary reference included in a recent article which reflects new interest and research into the extent of Roman influence in south-west Wales (it also accounts for my typo - see p31!) Among numerous collected extracts the following is offered as to the orgin of the name 'Via Julia' as mentioned by @GrindtXX:"Unknown Roman Roads” by Tudor A Morgan: “In the early days of their occupation the Roman s built a highway from Caerwent (Venta Silurum) to St David’s Head (Menapia). Julius Frontinus, AD 71-78 widened the road for military traffic, and ever since it been called the Via Julia...."

The wiki entry cites * Dahm, Murray K (1997), The Career and Writings of Sextus Julius Frontinus which contains this passage about his time in south west Wales:

Frontinus was appointed provincial governor of Britain as legatus Augusti pro praetore probably from 74 to 78. During his term of office he conquered the Silures of Wales, as Tacitus says in the Agricola:

. . . sustinuit molem Iulius Frontinus, vir magnus, quantam licebat, validamque et pugnacem Silurum gentem armis subegit, super virtutem hostium locorum quoque difficultates eluctatus.

. . . but Julius Frontinus was a great man, and so far as was humanly possible sustained the burden cast on him: his arms reduced the Silures, a powerful and warlike race; he surmounted not only the valour of the enemy but also the physical difficulties of their land.

This is the only solid evidence for the achievements of Frontinus' tenure as governor of Britain.. Horatius At The Bridge (talk) 12:33, 5 October 2021 (UTC)