Talk:Levantine Arabic

I think the below statement in the article about Levantine speakers in Turkey is problematic because it implies that if one speaks Levantine Arabic, then it is expected that they would know the Arabic script. This expectation contradicts that this language is mostly a spoken language. E.g., if I found a source that says they don't know the Hebrew script, could we have added it to the article? It doesn't matter if the source says this, the sources, even if reliable, may propagate the existing biases. Also if you click on the link given for "illiterate", you can see that it does not describe the situation of Levantine speakers in Turkey. They use Levantine Arabic as their conversational language, and mostly Turkish as their professional/academic language. Labeling this as a form of illiteracy is misleading. Since this is a featured article, even if this is a small matter, I think it would be helpful to have a discussion. @FunLater, @Nardog, @Buidhe: curious about your thoughts.

In Turkey, article 42.9 of the Constitution prohibits languages other than Turkish from being taught as a mother tongue and almost all indigenous Arabic speakers are illiterate in the Arabic script unless they have learned it for religious purposes.^[1]

TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 16:11, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

It specifically says "illiterate in the Arabic script". Some people are literate in one language but illiterate in others. Nothing in the literacy article contradicts this. (t · c) buidhe 16:46, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with buidhe. As I said in my revert, the source mentions this point. I think it's worth mentioning as it distinguishes the practice in Turkey from other Levantine countries (Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Israel), where, even though Levantine Arabic isn't taught, and sometimes the medium of education isn't even MSA, students still learn MSA and are therefore literate in the Arabic script. (It also explains why Levantine speakers in Turkey [other than Syrians] exclusively use the Latin-based Turkish alphabet, a point mentioned in "Orthography and writing systems".) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 17:00, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both for responding to my invitation. I see your points, but I have to say I still don't think a) the hyperlinked article on functional illiteracy is describing the situation of non-Syrian Levantine speakers in Turkey accurately, and b) inclusion of this information (even if it is true) in the education section fits well with the overall narrative of the article that this language is mainly a spoken language; i.e. it does not have strong ties with one writing system or the other. However, I'll respect the decision if the consensus is in another direction. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 18:12, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I just checked the source and the discussion there is about Arabic in general, not for Levantine Arabic specifically. This remark could have been appropriate for a section in the Arabic article, but not for the Levantine Arabic article, due to it being mostly a spoken-only language everywhere. And I don't see in the source that it is suggested that this situation is a result of article 42.9 of the Turkish constitution. It sounds to be a subjective point of view. Here is what the cited source says about Turkey: "Almost all Arabic speakers are illiterate in Arabic, unless they have learned Modern Standard Arabic or Classical Arabic for religious purposes." Sorry if I'm being too nit-picky, but this is a featured article, after all. :) My point, overall, is that if we are discussing a spoken-only language then everyone is equally literate or illiterate in it. MSA is a different language. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 01:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

My point, overall, is that if we are discussing a spoken-only language then everyone is equally literate or illiterate in it.: absolute non-sense. We have a whole section Levantine_Arabic#Orthography_and_writing_systems.

And I don't see in the source that it is suggested that this situation is a result of article 42.9 of the Turkish constitution.: From the source: "Furthermore, the new Constitution prohibited languages other than Turkish being taught as a mother tongue (Art. 42.9). Thus, Arabic could be taught as a foreign language but not as a mother tongue, not even to those for whom it was the latter. [...] Almost all Arabic speakers are illiterate in Arabic, unless they have learned Modern Standard Arabic or Classical Arabic for religious purposes. Usually, this only applies to men in leadership positions. Some learn Modern Standard Arabic in order to study in an Arabic-speaking country." in the section "3. Arabic as a minority language". (this is a major difference with the Greek, Armenian, Jewish, and Assyrian minorities who have minority schools teaching their language) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:35, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Other sources (not necessarily reliable) showing that the illiteracy in the Arabic script of Levantine speakers in Hatay is deemed relevant by academics:

• A genre of oral poetry, the Fann, in the Alawi community in the Hatay (Antioch) province of Turkey: "Almost all Arabs in Hatay are illiterate in Arabic."
• The Arabic Dialect of the Jews of Iskenderun: "The usage of lam by a speaker in the Turkish province of Hatay, where it was always strictly forbidden to teach Arabic and who is therefore illiterate in Arabic is a strong support for Rosenbaum's opinion"
• DABKE FOLK DANCE WITH LYRICS AND MUSIC IN HATAY ARAB ALAWITE CULTURE: "The sources associate the Arabic language used by Arab Alawites living in Syria and Lebanon with the Cebel-i Nusayriye dialect used in Syria. In Hatay, the local dialect Arabic language is spoken by Arab Alawites, Arab Sunnis, Arab Christians and Arab Jews. Almost most of these Arabic speaking communities in Hatay are illiterate in Arabic. A few people who are raised, educated or served in religious settings can only read or write Classical Arabic with limited grammatical knowledge. Arabic spoken in Hatay continues its existence as a native spoken language in a local dialect style. As stated in the sources, a decreasing change occurred in the Arabic used and spoken in Hatay due to the language change process from Arabic to Turkish. In 1939, after the Hatay State decided to join the motherland, Arabic-speaking communities in Hatay used Turkish officially and daily, and Arabic on the street daily by the family or local people. In addition, although the Arabic spoken in Hatay exists linguistically, it is difficult to find any literary work written in this language on the oral tradition (Ağbaht, 2018: 183-184; Jastrow, 2015: 64-65). Since the local Arabic spoken by the Arab communities in Hatay is not used as a language of reading and writing, it is an oral language that is less used in the daily speaking environment."

a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:52, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

By the way, I wish we had a free version of this image with Arabic written in the Turkish alphabet (source) on a billboard for RTE. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 07:55, 21 July 2024 (UTC)