Talk:Limburgish

I would like to quote this IP

Article Essen: (closely related to Dutch). removed. This isn't even wrong.

Talk:Lower Rhine region:

Once in the article:

"Bergish .. is the easternmost dialect of Limburgish"

• Jan Goossens, Die Gliederung des Südniederfränkischen, in: Rheinische Vierteljahrsblätter. Jahrgang 30  1965, Ludwig Röhrscheid Verlag, Bonn, 1965, p. 79-94, esp. p. 79:

• ‚Südniederfränkisch‘ nennt man [..] die Mundarten, die in einem Raum gesprochen werden, der sich beiderseits der Grenze zwischen dem Verbreitungsgebiet der deutschen und der niederländischen Kultursprache über drei Staaten, Deutschland, die Niederlande und Belgien, in einem Dreieck Tienen-Remscheid-Eupen erstreckt. Als Seiten des Dreiecks kann man die ik/ich-Linie (Tienen-Remscheid), die maken/machen-Linie (Remscheid-Eupen) und die romanische Sprachgrenze (Eupen-Tienen) betrachten. [...] Der niederländisch-flämische Teil dieses Gebietes ist unter dem Namen ‚Limburgisch‘ bekannt [...].

• That is: South Low Franconian lies between Ürdingen and Benrath line (has ich and maken). Limburgish is the Netherlandic-Flemish part of it.

• Bergish is variously defined, see
  Peter Wiesinger, Strukturgeographische und strukturhistorische Untersuchungen zur Stellung der bergischen Mundarten zwischen Ripuarisch, Niederfränkisch und Westfälisch, in: Peter Wiesinger, edited by Franz Patocka, Strukturelle historische Dialektologie des Deutschen: Strukturhistorische und strukturgeographische Studien zur Vokalentwicklung deutscher Dialekte, Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim / Zürich / New York, 2017, p. 341–437

• p. 349f.: "1967 Erich MENGEL [...] 1. Südbergische Mundarten (südlich der Benrather Linie)"

• I.e. Mengel's Bergish includes some Ripuarian, which is not South Low Franconian.

• p. 422 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie north of the Ürdingen line (have ik).

• p. 437 (map): Elberfeld and Barmen lie in the area of "Randbergisch" which is part of "Bergisch".

• Hence some of Wiesinger's Bergish lies north of the Ürdingen line and isn't South Low Franconian (south of the Ürdingen line).

article Low Franconian

Georg Wenker used the term Niederfränkisch (Low Franconian) more in the sense of Ripuarisch. Cp.:

• Georg Wenker, Das rheinische Platt. – Den Lehrern des Rheinlandes gewidmet, 2nd ed., im Selbstverlage des Verfassers, Düsseldorf, 1877

• • p. 13: "Davon abgesehen aber ist Köln der eigentliche Mittelpunkt einer großen, die ganze Mitte der Rheinprovinz einnehmenden Mundart. Diese hat man die niederfränkische genannt, und unter dem Namen wollen wir sie uns denn auch merken. Nach Norden ist die Benrather Linie ihre Grenze, [...]"

• • p. 14: "Wir haben nun noch zu sehen, wie das Niederfränkische, also die Mundart um Köln herum, sich nach Süden hin begrenzt. [...] Welches sind nun die beiden Mundarten, die sich hier vermengen? Die nördliche ist die niederfränfische um Köln, wie wir schon wissen, die südliche aber ist der Moseldialect auf dem linken Rheinufer zu beiden Seiten der Mosel und der Westerwälder Dialect auf der rechten Rheinseite im Westerwald. Diese beiden, der Moseldialect und der Westerwälder Dialect, sind fast ganz gleich und man nennt sie auch zusammen das Mittelfränkische (und zwar die nördlichste Mundart des Mittelfränkischen, denn [...]).

• Jürgen Lang, Sprache im Raum: Zu den theoretischen Grundlagen der Mundartforschung. Unter Berücksichtigung des Rätoromanischen und Leonesischen, series: Beihefte zur Zeitschrift für romanische Philologie. Band 185, Max Niemeyer Verlag, Tübingen, p. 195

</ref> Most dialects and languages included within this category are spoken in the Netherlands, northern Belgium (Flanders), in the Nord department of France, in western Germany (Lower Rhine), as well as in Suriname, South Africa and Namibia.

and

North and South Low Franconian, classified like this:^[1][2]. Compare also:

• LVR-Institut für Landeskunde und Regionalgeschichte (ed.). "Dialekte im Rheinland". Retrieved 21 July 2023.

Article Limburgish:

Gossens (1965) distinguished the following sub-dialects:^[3]

• ostlimburgisch-ribuarisches Übergangsgebiet (East Limburgish - Ripuarian transitional area; Ürdingen, Düsseldorf, Solingen, Remscheid, Mönchen-Gladbach, Eupen)

• Ostlimburgisch (East Limburgish; Panningen, Krefeld, Dülken, Sittard)

• Zentrallimburgisch (Central Limburgish; Maastricht, Vroenhoven)

• westlimburgisch-zentrallimburgisches Übergangsgebiet (West Limburgish - Central Limburgish transitional area; around and southern of Genk)

• • Tongerländisch (Tongeren)

• • Bilzerländisch (Genk, Bilzen)

• Westlimburgisch (West Limburgish; Veldeke, Hasselt, St.-Truiden, Loon)

• südbrabantisch-westlimburgisches Übergangsbiet (South Brabantian - West Limburgish transitional area)

• • Ostgeteländisch (Beringen)

• • Westgeteländisch (Tienen)

From talk:Dutch dialects

Though the overall consensus is that Limburgish has its historical base in Low Franconian, some historical linguists have a somewhat nuanced view on this: , ([..]Zuiver Oost-Frankisch heerscht: 1e. in het Land van Maas en Waal; 2e. in het Oostelijk gedeelte van Noord-Brabant; 3e. in het Oostelijk gedeelte van de prov. Antwerpen en (4e-6e) in het zoogenaamde mich-kwartier: 4e. het Oostelijk deel van Zuid-Brabant; 5e. Belgisch-Limburg; 6e. het grootste deel van Nederlandsch-Limburg, waar het dialect naar het Middel-Frankisch (Central Franconian languages) overhelt.; is this archaic Dutch text understandable enough for everyone here?)

I think it would be very worth adding this information to the "Classification and history" section (note: last year I made similar attempts to get this added to the corresponding article on the Dutch wiki, where it has been removed again, unfortunately). De Wikischim (talk) 10:07, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on these two sources (btw: do late 19th century texts really deem archaic to you? I've literally learned Dutch by reading Multatuli and linguistic texts about the Dutch East Indies from that period), this does not support an alternative classification as Central Franconian. Both speak of Central Franconian influence (or Limburg dialects leaning towards Central Franconian), and that's not what just some historical linguists, but is considered general wisdom. It is usually as an effect of the Keulse expansie in the Late Middle Ages and Early Modern Period, i.e. the radation of Ripuarian linguistic features into the southeastern part of the Low Franconian speech area as a result of the political dominance of Cologne.

But there are indeed some classifications in German dialectology that plainly assigns South Low Franconian (both in Limburg and the Rhineland) to Central Franconian and thus within the High German dialect landscape (most notable by Wiesinger), by taking the opposite view, i.e. South Low Franconian dialects are Ripurian dialects that increasingly acquire Low Franconian traits when you move further to the west and north. The common textbook view in B, D and NL however sees the Benrath line as the western/northern boundary of Central Franconian (and so does the Raod veur't Limburgs).

We have a bit about this in South_Low_Franconian#Classification already. I strongly opt for this article not simply to be a fork of South Low Franconian, but rather primary intended to talk about the recognized regional language (that's also what the ISO-code is for). Hence, we don't have to talk too much about classification here (especially when the northern part of Limburg tells a completely different story). But that's just me. I know there are other opinions, but contrary to what I've heard in the past days, it takes more than a 2:1 !vote to dance the WP consensus tango. –Austronesier (talk) 08:31, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree (among others based on your explanation about the view on this within German dialectology - thanks for that) that the Low Franconian and South Low Franconian articles are likely more suitable places for this sort of info. Yet I think it shouldn't be left completely unmentioned here either, as it serves among others to clarify the relationship of Limburgish to (Standard) Dutch (which is now discussed throughout this article in a rather vague/unclear/inconsistent manner, which I think will be of little or no use to common readers). De Wikischim (talk) 09:22, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Well, this is part of Vlaemink's and my point that this article overall does not a good job of explaining anything (much of which has to do with its advocacy-driven edit history), regardless of the question of what this article actually should explain. –Austronesier (talk) 09:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree there are more striking issues with the current, rather poor version. Just one example is the relatively long section about "Meuse Rhenish", which seems of little or even no importance here. It's nothing but a proposed alternative classification of a big regiolectal area (including even Kleve and further), not supported by many linguists and therefore violating Original Research Policy. De Wikischim (talk) 10:02, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@De Wikischim: No, it wouldn't be possible to add this information to the ″Classification and history″ section, because the sources provided cannot be used to support what is being claimed:

• Both of these sources are outdated, being published in 1892 and 1901 respectively; and hence do not meet Wikipedia standards on reliable sources.
• Neither of these sources makes any claims about ″Limburgish″ not being Low Franconian, they do not discuss this issue:

1. When Wieger (1901) mentions Middle Franconian, he simply states that the dialects in the southeast of Dutch Limburg are transitional — which is true.

2. When Leviticus (1892) mentions Middle Franconian, he simply states that the language of the Middle Dutch Sente Servas-text is closely related to Middle Franconian — which is true.

On a meta note: The way these sources were provided is inherently faulty: you searched for limburgs nederfrankisch middelfrankisch overgangsdialect (″Limburgish Low Franconian Middle Franconian transitional dialect″) in Google books and, most likely, did the same with the DBNL-database. In other words: you are searching for what you want to find, instead of what you want to know, in addition to (erroneously) taking fragments or excerpts out of their broader context. The inherent problems with this method have been stated before . Vlaemink (talk) 10:16, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Indeed, some publications use the Uerdingen instead of the more common Benrath isoglos, but as you've correctly stated the northward expansion of the first is a development from the High Middle Ages. This could be briefly explained in the article (if it isn't already), but would then also require explicit mentioning of the fact that Old East Dutch / Old East Low Franconian, did not have these characteristics. To me, this seems like a fairly minute and uncontroversial detail to be addressed later, after the article as a whole is in a far better shape than it is now. Vlaemink (talk) 10:29, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Long-term_disputes_on_various_wikis_involving_a_cross-wiki_IP_author is an attempt to centralize this lengthy debate, Sarcelles (talk) 16:11, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

In late August, I made two edits to this page, edits which were reverted by @De Wikischim along with suggestions that I was a sockpuppet (I am in fact not; I wasn't a Wikipedia-user up until 15 minutes ago).

The edits I made were concerning the unbalanced portrayal of the Dutch Language Union's opposition to the recognition of Limburgish. While I understand that the edit I made was probably too detailed and outside the scope of this Wiki-page, I think the current state of the article does not reflect a balanced point of view at all. It makes it look like there are simply two groups of linguists who disagree. The facts are, however, that the Dutch Language Union has a) not read the scientific advice which granted the regional language-status and which was approved by European officials because it met their standards (i.e. independent development from the Dachsprache and sufficient societal support)

b) explicitly stated that the recognition of regional languages threatens the status and dominance of the Dutch language, thereby implying that such recognitions should be blocked on political, not linguistic, grounds

The NPOV policy of Wikipedia states that significant views should be represented "fairly and PROPORTIONALLY". To present the Dutch Language Union's position without any mention of these important facts seems to me to give undue weight and is therefore not a neutral point of view.

I would like to invite De Wikischim to respond to my argument, and perhaps to let us come to an agreement about a succinct edit to the article, so that the position of the Dutch Language Union is not given the unfair weight it is given at this point. FangedNominals (talk) 16:38, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

Hello @FangedNominals:, OK, my apologies. I now think your recent addititon to this article was right after all, so I've put this back now and will try look what else can be improved here. Your edit first struck me as somewhat suspect, but your explanation helps clarifiying a lot.

Unfortunately at least one other user apparently has used sockpuppets, creating a disbalance on this subject, especially on the corresponding article on the Dutch Wikipedia, and they made an attempt on the article here last year too. De Wikischim (talk) 10:15, 18 September 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation, @De Wikischim, I understand. No hard feelings. FangedNominals (talk) 15:01, 18 September 2025 (UTC)

This article has had serious issues since at least 2023 regarding the sourcing of the information provided and the overall neutrality of the article.

The same applied until recently to the Dutch version of this article, but over the past two years it has been thoroughly rewritten and revised, and it has now reached a stable version with significantly more references than the article here.

For this reason, I have begun importing various sections from the Dutch article. This is not the first time this has been done; the article up to October 2025 is, in fact, already a translation of the Dutch-language article, but of a considerably older version.

Where information here is better or more comprehensive (provided, of course, that it is supported by valid sources) than in the Dutch article, it will naturally be retained. For example, I noticed that this applies to large parts of the phonology section.

Any help or other improvements will be appreciated.Vlaemink (talk) 11:14, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

The article has now increased in size from 66,104 bytes to 78,150 bytes and now has nearly double the amount of citations and references. As of October '25, the grammar and phonology-sections remain unedited. The grammar-section already had a template warning readers about the lack of references, the phonology-section does so now too; as that section wasn' t as well referenced as I thought at first glance. I think the article has been sufficiently improved to warrant the removal of the neutrality-template and general missing sources-template at the top of the article.Vlaemink (talk) 12:49, 2 October 2025 (UTC)