Talk:Ofakim

Caption says Negev - Ofakim, dated 1947. The article says the settlement was established in 1955.

Padres Hana (talk) 21:55, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Second image

Padres Hana (talk) 22:08, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Padres Hana: I see 1955 in multiple places including official lists. It is not mentioned (unless under a different name) in the settlement list of the 1952 Yearbook of Israel. I have no idea what that images show. Zero^talk 05:04, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

So to disclose, I'm here because I saw a thread on social media claiming that there was serious factual inaccuracy on this page, but I'm not taking anything I read elsewhere as gospel, I decided to check it out for myself. I'm not sure how the sources cited connect Khirbet Futais (the subject of the first paragraphs of the History section) to Ofakim (the subject of the article. The cited source from Palestinapedia specifically says that Patish is built on the site, and doesn't mention Ofakim.

@Zero0000, you re-added the claim (a couple of years ago) that Ofakim is on the site of Khirbet Futais saying it was amply supported by maps, can you provide or point to the maps please? The claim is cited to Haaretz articles that I don't see mentioning Khirbet Futais. Samuelshraga (talk) 12:50, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

@Samuelshraga: Thanks for the question. Ofakim was founded about 1km south-west of Khirbet Futais. The site of Khirbet Futais is also known as Beer Pattish and is believed to be the location of the ancient settlement of Patish. Israel renamed Khirbet Futais as Horbat Patish sometime in the 1950s. Now Ofakim has expanded to the point where Khirbet Futais is on the edge of the built-up area. The moshav Patish is named after ancient Patish but is actually located about 6km to the west. If you look at this map, Horbat Patish is just below where the train line crosses highway 241; zoom in and you can see Horbat Patish as a circle of dots—that's precisely where Khirbet Futais is. Patish moshav is 6 grid squares to the left. Tomorrow I'll review the text in these articles for precision. Zero^talk 13:56, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks, that's helpful to know. If Ofakim expanded to the site after its foundation, then the statement in the article "Ofakim was established on 19 April 1955 on the site" is inaccurate? And if it wasn't on the site where Ofakim was founded, it seems odd to have these as the first paragraphs of the body of the article on Ofakim.

A separate thing I find myself wondering is if are there any sources explicitly connecting Khirbet Futais (or Be'er Pattish) to Ofakim? The Palestinapedia source doesn't, the بلادنا فلسطين one is a (long) book and no chapter/page reference is given (I can read Arabic with difficulty but I can't skim it to find relevant stuff).

I see what you mean from the map situating חורבת פטיש in the area that is currently Ofakim, but I think it would make sense to have sources that explicitly connect the Bedouin hamlet we're describing to Ofakim to justify the inclusion of its history in the Ofakim page. Samuelshraga (talk) 19:15, 5 January 2026 (UTC)

@Samuelshraga: To editor Adhib: We are allowed to use maps as sources, but we have to cite them properly and we can't deduce things that the map doesn't show explicitly. In the case of Khirbet Futais, the most detailed map from 1947 (Survey of Palestine, 1:20,000 series, sheet 11/8, "Esh Sharī'a") shows several buildings indicated as "ruin" and a large number of wells (more than 10) but still we can't call it a hamlet only on the basis of the map. We can't say it was uninhabited on the basis of a map either. It is quite impossible that a place with reliable water in bedouin territory wouldn't have had at least a seasonal population, but that requires a textual source. Also, it was not usual in that time period for a bedouin encampment, even a long-lived one, to be shown as a village or hamlet on maps. However, the presence in the neighborhood of the bedouin tribes 'Arab el Hukūk and 'Arab el Qudeirāt is shown on the map and can be sourced to it. Zero^talk 01:41, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

@Zero0000, I agree on the need for a textual source - I don't think the Palestinapedia source works (the entry contains at least one major inaccuracy about Patish being built on the site and doesn't mention Ofakim). Samuelshraga (talk) 07:09, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

Mustafa Murad in Our country Palestine says that prior to 1948, the area was named Khirbat Futais (Arabic: خربة فطيس) after the ruins and populated by members of Al-Qadirat clan of Al-Tiyaha tribe of Bedouin, where they had a hamlet with "very small number of built mud-brick houses" next to "Wadi Futeis", a seasonal stream that drains into Wadi Gaza. The Bedouins grew wheat, barley, and melon, and tended flocks of sheep and goats.^[1]

I'm dubious about this source. It would be much better to cite Our country Palestine directly if possible, as that source is generally held reliable. There is no way to know how much of the encyclopedia text came from the book. We should work on this. Zero^talk 07:43, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

Checked the book by Murad. Khirbet Futais is listed in the index as mentioned on the following pages:

• page 375: "Pattish meaning 'hammer'(?). Built on the ruins of Khirbet Futeis, it had a population of 475 Jews at the end of 1960"
• page 450: "Khirbet Futeis is located on the lands of al Qadirat south of Tel Abu Hureira at a distance of about 17 km NW of Beersheba. There was located here Afta, a Roman era village. The Khirbet is composed of its extensive ruins and stone-built cisterns." + "Khirbet al Iraq lies to the west of Khirbet Futeis and is also known as Iraq Abi Hussein."
• page 454 "Khirbet Abu Samara lies to the NE of Khirbet Futeis" Tiamut (talk) 14:27, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

Sorry, just looking at page 450 again, there is more too. Give me a second to translate. Tiamut (talk) 14:37, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

Added the next sentence. Don't see any other info related to that particular Khirbet on those pages. Perhaps worth looking up mentions of Al-Qadirat clan though, since it may mention them using the place. Tiamut (talk) 14:45, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

Read the pages where al-Qadirat are mentioned too. Fascinating info on that tribe there but nothing else on the village. Don't know why no one has ever bothered to translate Murad's book into English. Its a treasure. Tiamut (talk) 15:02, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

One last thing, its clear from Murad's text that when he says it is in the lands of al-Qadirat, he is saying it is part of their tribal territory, which implies that they did in fact use it, and considering he mentions cisterns there too, this is likely, as water is precious in this semi-arid part of the region. Also considering the Bedouin of the Naqab are nomadic pastoralists, it is not unlikely that they planted crops, and watered them using those cisterns, and even maybe made mud-brick shelters to house them there during planting season. However, none of these details are explicitly mentioned by Murad in the pages I read at least. I assume whoever added these details did so out of knowledge of these traditional practices, not malevolence. But Murad can't be used to support anything beyond a statement that the Khirbet was part of the traditional lands of al-Qadirat. Tiamut (talk) 17:31, 6 January 2026 (UTC)

The mention of "Afta" is a reference to Aphtia, which was an earlier identification of Khirbet Futeis (Petersen, Towns of Palestine, p64). This has been largely rejected in favor of Patish/Photis. Zero^talk 08:45, 7 January 2026 (UTC)

Thanks @Zero0000 & @Tiamut, the article seems a lot more verifiable than it did a couple of days ago. Another bit that I think needs examining:

By mid-July, during the 1948 War (Operation An-Far), the area fell to the IDF. The Bedouin families living there fled to Al-Muharraqa, and from there they were expelled to the Gaza Strip.^[2]

I don't know if deyaralnagab.net is a known/reliable source, but even if so, the source is a first person account, I think that the geographical markers given given don't point to the site of Ofakim so much as somewhere in its general area/to its north (I couldn't find the location of the Abu Ruqaiq bridge), and no mention is made of Ofakim (or even Khirbet Futais). Unless a clear connection to Ofakim or its site can be found in the sources, this content seems more appropriate to Al-Muharraqa than this page. Samuelshraga (talk) 20:45, 7 January 2026 (UTC) Samuelshraga (talk) 20:45, 7 January 2026 (UTC)

Khurbet Futeis is mentioned in Conder and Kitchener, SWP III; p. 396, "A large ruin on the north bank of the valley"

They also site Victor Guérin, Judee II, p. 287: "These ruins occupy a broken plateau on the south bank of the torrent. Masses of material strew the ground over an extent of 1,800 metres of circumference. Everything is entirely overthrown except ten round constructions, each surmounted by a little pointed cupola built of well-rounded stones. Probably these buildings were intended for the storage of grain. In the bed of the Wady there is an ancient well containing abundance of excellent water."

C&K adds: "It will be observed in reference to the map that this ruin is on the north bank, not the south."

I wonder if the Guérin -ref is wrong page? French-speakers: please help. Huldra (talk) 22:06, 12 January 2026 (UTC)

Hi dear Huldra. It is the correct page. It is Khirbet Oued Fteis in Gueri, "Oued" meaning Wadi, and referencing what his Bedouin guide tells him is Oued Mleh, another name for the nearby wadi. Translation is sound too as far as I can tell. Tiamut (talk) 11:49, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

Dauphin and Petersen both give the same reference to Guérin. Zero^talk 01:09, 13 January 2026 (UTC)

I wondered, as I couldn't find " 1,800" in the Guerin-ref; I guess it was given in letters? So what do you think, should we add an Ottoman section, including these sources? cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:00, 14 January 2026 (UTC)

"dix-huit cents" = 1,800. Yes, we should include these sources. Zero^talk 00:50, 15 January 2026 (UTC)

User:Zero0000: do you have the Dauphin and Petersen page-numbers? Huldra (talk) 21:46, 19 January 2026 (UTC)