Talk:Pastirma

I'm removing John Ash as a source. Considering the Ottomans didn't conquer Romaniaa^[1] - and that most expert sources in history use considerably more precision when discussing this topic (distinguishing between different territories rather than saying the Ottomans "conquered Romania") - I don't think we can use this as a history reference (quote from article: “Having inherited pastirma from the Byzantines, the Turks took it with them when they conquered Hungary and Romania […]” (though certainly John Ash is a fine reference for recipes or preparation related content).Seraphim System ^(talk) 00:44, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

@Seraphim System:

Since we obviously won't be able to agree to which narrative should be used on this page, here's my attempt at a compromise: we do both. I have made the changes, and further discussion can take place here, if you're willing. 74.70.146.1 (talk) 18:25, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

If you want to discuss the changes, then stop edit warring and discuss them and explain why you think the sources support the content you keep restoring - the only solid source in there for history/etymology is Alan Davidson "Dried meat, a forerunner of the pastirma of modern Turkey, became a delicacy." - which is directly quoted in the article. As for paston, I suggest you read the content in the article instead of edit warring. Restoring SPS because you think it has an Armenian origin is not a good reason, we're not going to agree unless you can find reliable sources that support the changes you want to make.Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:43, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

If RS support your edit, I won't object, but the only RS supporting Armenian origins is one SPS. Whether and how that source is admissible should be brought to RS/n, because it's not a decision I would be comfortable making without community input. If you bring it to RS/n we can discuss it, and possibly use the source with attribution. However, an RfC is not a substitute for RS. If you open an RfC without engaging in discussion to push through edits that are not reliably sourced, I intend to request a procedural close. I've asked you to post reliable sources that support your edits. The fact that reliable sources don't support your edits is not a good reason for an RfC and is troubling in an area with long-term persistent sock puppetry and LTA issues. Inserting content that is not reliably sourced into articles for POV reasons is extremely damaging to the encyclopedia. You don't seem concerned that the information you are adding may not be accurate.Seraphim System ^(talk) 18:57, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

I looked into it futher and the disputed edits were made by a CheckUser blocked sock of Steverci. The name seems familiar, but I would have to do more digging to figure out where I've seen it before. I checked every source I could, including what I had access to from Takuhi Tovmasyan's Turkish language book, and I couldn't find anything supporting Armenian origins for pastirma. If I do end up finding a source, I will add it. Please stop restoring this until reliable sources are found. Not sure what else to say here.Seraphim System ^(talk) 23:44, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

It is obvious that Pastirma is traditional Greek meze. The Greeks of Cappadocia have contributed in modest but distinct ways to the general food culture of modern Greece, reinforcing and adding their own nuances to the special foods of the major Christian festivals. They also claim pastirma as one of their specialities. In spite of such Byzantine precursors as apokti, it is true that the pastirma tradition has deep roots in the nomadic culture of the medieval Turks. It is highly probable that they transmitted the idea to the Cappadocians alongtime before Constantinople was conquered, and, although Constantinople knew all about pastirma from the seventeenth century onwards, it is certain that after the population exchanges of 1923 modern Greece acquired its knowledge of pastirma from the Capadocians. For more see: Gifts of the Gods: Andrew Dalby, Rachel Dalby, A History of Food in Greece, Foods and Nations, Reaktion Books, 2017, ISBN 1780238630, p. 149. Jingiby (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

"obvious" in what sense? in traditional food article we read "traditional foods are foods and dishes that are passed on through generations[1] or which have been consumed for many generations.[2] Traditional foods and dishes are traditional in nature, and may have a historic precedent in a national dish, regional cuisine[1] or local cuisine. Traditional foods and beverages may be produced as homemade, by restaurants and small manufacturers, and by large food processing plant facilities.[3]"

pastirma 1) has not passed on through generations in Greece: it is completely unknown to Greek mainland folks how to make it, and most of all its existence was not known until very recently in history, instead of "consumed for many generations". It is not homemade, and other than specific restaurants specialized on anatolian originated food in northern Greece, as well as in the center of Athens, it was never served in Greek restaurants as "traditional food".

It's impressive how people who have probably hardly even been to Greece, have an opinion of what is traditional in Greece and what not, which contradicts the opinion of Greeks themselves — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:85F:E044:7800:11CC:AF1B:78C4:1F2E (talk) 23:23, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

I want to add the earliest mention of basturma, in armenian aboukh. Acccording to a source I know (https://armenianprelacy.org/2016/07/08/how-do-you-say-basturma-in-armenian/) it is stated that aboukht is mentioned in the first armenian bible translation. Can I use this as a source, or not? Also If someone can, can someone please verify If the word aboukht actually appears in the Armenian bible translation? 2003:EA:4F4F:CFED:81DC:9569:5D8B:70B4 (talk) 19:47, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why it could not be used. Please add it to the article and if you difficulty doing so, post a request for edit here. Netherzone (talk) 22:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Alright thanks, I added it to the article. 2003:EA:4F4F:CF55:474:E868:9C6C:2C14 (talk) 00:28, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Armenian Aboukh is historically and etymologically distinct from pastırma. To claim that "pastırma existed in ancient Armenian cuisine" is to claim ancient Armenians somehow introduced the dish to ancient turks hundreds of years before name "pastirma" first mentioned as being made by wedging meat between saddle of the horse, which is impossible since at that time two people groups did not live anywhere close. I don't understand why it keeps getting readded, no one is claiming the invention of dried meat, but to assert pastırma in particular as "existing in ancient Armenian cuisine" is ridiculous and impossible. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2025 (UTC)

Your sources? Grasshalm (talk) 11:11, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm it would be up to you to prove how aboulh is related to pastırma Agent Albatros (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Aboukh* Agent Albatros (talk) 16:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh@Valereee lock the page or sum, it needs to be protected from vandalism, a user is constantly reverting sourced content and inline citations! Grasshalm (talk) 16:54, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

Btw, meat wedged between the sadle of a horse is not exactly basturma, which is characterised by air drying and being covered in the chemen paste.. Even If that horsesweat meat was pastirma, It would still be far after Armenians had it in ancient times as the article points out.. Grasshalm (talk) 11:14, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm"Btw, meat wedged between the sadle of a horse is not exactly basturma, which is characterised by air drying and being covered in the chemen paste"

Well, it is how it is first described in its oldest mention.

like I said, im not about who invented dried meat, I am simply saying that the "pastırma" is with its history, name, everything, is distinct form the armenian aboukh, and should not be equated with pastırma.

And what was implied in the article was that pastırma was introduced to turks and mongols, who at the time lived around altai mountains, by armenians who lived in ararat.

So no, Armenians did not have the pastırma, they had another form dried meat, which was not called pastırma, was unrelated to pastırma. Agent Albatros (talk) 16:27, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Turks and mongols did not have pastirma, the first time pastirma is mentioned in turkish sources is diwan al-turk, from the 11th century, where turks had entered anatolia. The chemen paste (lt has a link bringing you to wiktionary) is also of armenian etymology and you cant just revert sourced comtent. One of these inline cotations literially states its of armenian origin. You cant delete sourced comtent. Grasshalm (talk) 16:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

And when the citation speaks about how turks used to wedge it between their saddle and their horse It means anatolian turks, as if it was central asian turks, or mongols, the cotation wouldve said turkic/mongol, not turkish. Just read carefully. Grasshalm (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm you clearly did not read kashgari, he never talks about any turkic tribe living in anatolia,he talks about tribes in central asia. battle of manzikert was fought in around the time he FINISHED.his book, which resulted in FIRST tribes moving into anatolia,never does he talk about any armenians living together with turks. do not cite the sources you haven't read. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Wheres your inline citation confirming what you have read? Also, even If that was the case and the turks were in persia by their time, or had just entered Anatolia withbthe battle of manzikert, It would still be logical, as people back then traded and If turks already were in persia, or near manzikert, they would have bordered bagratid armenia. Grasshalm (talk) 17:03, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm where is your proof for this? Source never connects pastırma with armenian aboukh and in context talks about turks in and aroud central asia, you, out of nowhere, connect the dried meat he talks about to aboukh, with 0 evidence besides "they are both dried meat" even though he CLEALY describes it distinctly. Just how do you connect it with Aboukh? Agent Albatros (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Here, fr the 3rd time my dyslexic friend:

^[1]—>In the Middle East, basturma - spiced and wind-dried beef - is still made according to old family recipes. Of Armenian origin, this seasoned meat was carried by Turkish horsemen who allegedly wedged it between saddle and horse for extra salt and savor. Grasshalm (talk) 17:11, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm this Web page does not offer any proof of this claim, I can pull other websites saying otherwise. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:17, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

You know, this is actually laughable, Its a book about food history made by a food historian who had to give his sources for it to be recognised by the Gastronomica institute. The same goes for any other source, also the sources talking about turkish pastirma, youre just desperate at this point and havent even brought one source by yourself. Grasshalm (talk) 17:21, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm no, it is a web page and only does nothing to connect aboukh with pastıma other than saying it is, just give me a single atom of proof in aboukh being related to pastırma, just one. The primary source does not mention aboukh or armenians in any way, neither any primary sources, just one atom of proof. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:24, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Oh man, youre so ignorant Its painful, what are your motivations to be so neglecting of any source given to you? Are It nationalistic reasons? It is a page that perserves the pages of the book digitally, youre getting ridicilous and desperate, not to mention the other sources of this article I havent even named yet Grasshalm (talk) 17:26, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm you cannot explain how aboukh is related to pastırma, other than pointing to a book that says it is, it should not be so hard. Just tell me bro. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:32, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Oh man, youre so deluded, did you even read your own comment? „you cannot explain how aboukh is related to pastırma, other than pointing to a book that says it is“……Yeah, I got a source for what I say, infact a book approved by food historians is my source, do you expect me to just talk nonesense without citing any source like you? Grasshalm (talk) 17:37, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm yeah you cant explain it, do you really want me no primary source mentions it,kashgari or anyone else. There are several primary sources other than kashgari describing how turks and momgols made the Pastırma exactly as how he describes it. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:43, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Lemme quote you „You cant explain your version, all you do is point to a book“. Same exact logic, no source states that aboukh and pastirma are different and you not even looking at the sources this page gives is pathetic. You want an explanation? Sources say Its of Armenian origin and Turks got it, because they adopted it. Not too hard to understand eh..

I know youre triggered as a Turk, but thats no reason to become ignorant. Grasshalm (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

kashgari,çelebi,bertrandon say it is not,how does your single source saying it is armenian without any proof of any kind, outweigth one source saying it is not?you migth not be aware but second hand sources also have to cite primary sources and no primary source makes that claim.astırma exists in balkans and egypt too.not just armenia and turkey. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:00, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

There also are 4 other sources stating that and kashgari doesnt say that It is of „Turkic origin, but that turks used to consume it, again, faulty citing and you didnt even give any inline citations for what you said, soon, when other show up, this page will be protected from your vandalism by being locked and you could be banned If continuing this. Grasshalm (talk) 18:02, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

There also are 4 other sources stating that and kashgari doesnt say that It is of „Turkic origin, but that turks used to consume it, again, faulty citing and you didnt even give any inline citations for what you said, soon, when other show up, this page will be protected from your vandalism by being locked and you could be banned If continuing this. Also, It doesnt matter in which countries its popular now, the history sextion is about where it was historically made. Grasshalm (talk) 18:02, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink in America,says it is turkish,çelebi says it,

"and kashgari doesnt say that It is of „Turkic origin, but that turks used to consume it"

you just cant read

"It doesnt matter in which countries its popular now, the history sextion is about where it was historically made"

the first description litterarly says how its made and does not mention aboukh. it says it is made by nomads in horses,thats not armenians,your nationalism rotted your brain. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:07, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Oxford does not say it, you didnt give any source for that and you also didnt give any source for a guy named celebi or sum having said that its of turkish origin. All in all, youre desperate rn. Your nationalism and ignorance will be your downfall. Grasshalm (talk) 18:09, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

you are rigth, kashgari never says its of turkish origin, he just says it is made and eaten by them,so we assume it. they dont have to scream IT IS TURKISH NOT ARMENIAN,the method is distinct,the place is distinct, why are you arguing it is armenian?there is no proof,the second hand source you cited offers no proof,makes no referance.you simlpy cant say it. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:24, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Now, so your best source is a source thats stating that turks used to consume it, but that doesnt say its of turkish origin, as you yourself said, all you do is assume, while the sources for the armenian part, say that it IS of Armenian origin, see the error in your ways. Grasshalm (talk) 18:26, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

a single book says its armenian without any proof,while my source describes how it is made,which is due to their nomadic life,by saddle,says it is made and eaten by them,thats how it says it,it litterarly means "pressing".

it simply does not need anymore, it is made by them, it is made in context of their unique lifestyle,and it litterarly means "pressing".

just explain to me how that is related to aboukh Agent Albatros (talk) 18:32, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

No, not a single book, but multiple books, look at the other sources of the Armenian part. It doesnt matter If your book explains how Its made (that book Ive given also does) If It doesnt give a thruth claim. Its like giving a cooking recipe as a source for why something is of „x country‘s“ origin Grasshalm (talk) 18:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm you just can't read. I wont respond umtil you explain how aboukh is related to pastıma, which is the whole base for arguing that it is armenian origin.

You cant Agent Albatros (talk) 18:39, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Again, It is NOT a webside bruh..

Now this is just insane. Grasshalm (talk) 17:24, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm you still did not explain. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:35, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@Grasshalm I can pull sources telling otherwise, it changes nothing, it it just says it is related despite primary sources not mentioning it,infact it says the opposite, that it was made by nomads in saddle, as the primary source says, and never does he mention aboukh. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:38, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

You cant read and are dyslexic, I dont need to explain how it happened, just as you dont need to explain how pastirma entered turkish cuisine, or how it got to bulgaria, or why It appeared in egypt. I even actually did explain it, but even that and countless sources werent enough, because youre an ignorant turk who vandalises and tries to corrupt articles because of your nationalistic tendencies. Grasshalm (talk) 18:41, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm pastıma literally means pressing in turksih lmao of course you dont need to explain.you need to explain how it is related to aboukh. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:48, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

It doesnt matter what It is called in turkish, It matters where it originally is from and the sources state that Its armenian in origin and that aboukht is the old armenian name for it. Youre just too ignorant and unintelligent to grasp that. Grasshalm (talk) 18:49, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm explain the link between aboukh and pastırma for the 1000x time Agent Albatros (talk) 18:51, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

I already did and you didnt accept it, aka, you are ignorant and keep asking for something already provided, soon, this page will be locked and youll get to calm down from your nationalistic frenzy. Grasshalm (talk) 18:53, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm you claim something which means pressing in turkish borrowed their own word for Armenian, you are the only deranged nationalist here. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Again, youre not understanding anything and simplifying it, it are 5, not 1 source and you got no sources, so I advise you stop this vandalising. Grasshalm (talk) 19:00, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm liar, you will do anything but prove it will you, just accept it, aboukh and pastırma are not the same. Agent Albatros (talk) 19:06, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

OK, now you are also casting aspersions as well, you both need to stop slinging insults and assuming bad faith. Netherzone (talk) 19:28, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@Barseghian Lilia this user is just reverting sourced content and not even giving any sources of his sources to contest them, what shall be done? Grasshalm (talk) 16:41, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm brother, stop it, the source just nentions a different dried meat, its called aboukh, and says that it is where pastırma comes from without doing anything to prove it. Just make a seperate page about aboukh, it is not hard. Agent Albatros (talk) 16:45, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

It does not, since youre dyslexic, heres the source written out for you: In the Middle East, basturma - spiced and wind-dried beef - is still made according to old family recipes. Of Armenian origin, this seasoned meat was carried by Turkish horsemen who allegedly wedged it between saddle and horse for extra salt and savor.

Aboukh was just the ancient name for it.. Grasshalm (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm and where does it base the claim that it was pf Armenian origin? It connects it with Aboukh, which is as we established untrue. Agent Albatros (talk) 17:03, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

Are you dyslexic? Here again for you:

^[2]—>In the Middle East, basturma - spiced and wind-dried beef - is still made according to old family recipes. Of Armenian origin, this seasoned meat was carried by Turkish horsemen who allegedly wedged it between saddle and horse for extra salt and savor. Grasshalm (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

@Grasshalm again, How does this prove that pastıma is of Armenian origin and related to aboukh other that saying it is? Its just a web page, I can pull tens of websites saying otherwise it doesn't prove anything. Just say to me how you prove aboukh is the origin of pastırma other than "they are both dried meat" Agent Albatros (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@Netherzone or anyone, can someone lock this page so It cant be vandalised anymore? Grasshalm (talk) 17:22, 28 July 2025 (UTC)( Blocked sockpuppet of Əzərbəyəniləri, see investigation)

You are both edit warring, and both of you need to stop. Also casting aspersions such as using dyslexic as a slur is not appropriate. Netherzone (talk) 18:53, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

@Netherzone ok, at this point I give up, let aboukh be pastırma. You won. Agent Albatros (talk) 18:59, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

There have been 18 or 19 reverts in the past day, this is edit warring. You are both wrong to do so. Take it to an administrator's notice board, such as WP:ANI or WP:ANI/EW or seek dispute resolution at WP:DRN. In the meantime I will be restoring the article to a stable state it was in prior to when the edit war began. Netherzone (talk) 19:09, 28 July 2025 (UTC)

The current copyright violation has been on the page for over a month. Since the page has been subject to constant sock puppetry, it has gone under protection by an admin.

Is there any way to resolve the issue with the copy right violation? It's a pretty big blemish on the page and it serves to point people towards the page history... which only leads them into discovering the drama that went on in the edits since the pages with the copyrighted content have been removed. 37.224.24.67 (talk) 08:40, 2 October 2025 (UTC)