Talk:Paul Anka

A consensus needs to be reached about how to state what Paul Anka has said in his autobiography about his origins. In page 11 of his book he states his parents were of Lebanese Christian DESCENT https://books.google.se/books?id=nK3YhlaflSQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=paul+anka+lebanese&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjUxZGQxoHoAhVewsQBHSrWBH84ChDoAQgoMAA#v=onepage&q=Lebanese&f=false. He also said that with his own words in minute 3.25- 4:30 of his interview archived in NPR.org with link https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4793881?storyId=4793881&t=1593052812491 he was of Lebanese descent not of Syrian nor Syrian and Lebanese descent. When someone is of Lebanese descent it means his/her ancestors come from Lebanon.

Further in the same page 11 of his autobiography Anka says "in the small town in Syria called Bab Touma-where my ancestors came from" the told event with his grandfather and granduncle happened and "his grandparents immigrated to Canada" from there to escape revenge.

Since he first states his parents are of Lebanese descent the above statement has to mean that his grandparents moved from Lebanon to this small town in Syria, lived there and then immigrated to Canada after the incident. He stated his ancestors CAME from there (as CAME to Canada from there) not that they COME from there meaning originated from.

As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Using_sources Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication. Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources, or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source, such as using material out of context. Also as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoting_out_of_context

User George Al-Shami is trying to merge his two statements in a way that implicates as if he is of Syrian descent and not of Lebanese descent as stated by Anka. He then goes on and adds less notable sources that say he is of Syrian descent to support his merge. Al-Shami also added his own original research by adding that the Bab Touma in Syria mentioned by Anka is the old district inside the city of Damascus when Paul Anka states that the Bab Touma where his ancestors came to Canada from is a SMALL TOWN in Syria and does not say its a district of a big city.

(For what is worth, since he stated his parents are of Lebanese descent, that small town of Bab Touma could even be Mar Touma in Ottoman Syria (modern-day Lebanon) but of course he didn't say Mar Touma so this is just a possibility that falls within original research to try to make sense of the two "seemingly contradictory" statements)

User George Al-Shami has previously quoted "exact" statements from sources in order to implicate Syrian descent of Queen Noor of Jordan's grandfather Elias Halaby when that Syrian descent has been put in question by experts such as Henry Louis Gates through his expertise and research. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Najeeb_Halaby#Najeeb_Halaby_Lebanese_Origins for this previous discussion.Chris O' Hare (talk) 12:41, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

User Chris O' Hare's preoccupation on Wikipedia is to find articles on Syrian/Lebanese people and remove Syrian ancestry from that person's background, even when it is backed by the totality of credible sources; and when credible sources state the person has both ancestries, he looks for dubious sources and engages in WP:OR. To back that up and provide context on the unfair allegations he stated about me with regards to the Najeeb Halaby source..

1) On March 24 he adds a New York Times source to Najeeb Halaby's article that states he is Lebanese/Syrian and adds the nationalistic designation "Lebanese", which I don't object to, because it's referenced with a credible source, the NYT.

Here's the diff ^[1]

2) Then on March 26, 2020 after seeing that no one objected to his addition of "Lebanese" and his NYT source which refers to Halaby as "Lebanese/Syrian", he removes the national designation "Syrian"; even though that's what his chosen source states; this will clearly show that the said editor is not making edits in good faith.

:Here's the diff [2]

3) He brings up the PBS Henry Gates source to dispel what the NYT source and his memoir stated, so I explained to Chris O' Hare that this is against Wiki policy to engage in WP:OR, so now he's turning this on its head and is claiming that I'm engaging in WP:OR because I added "old district" to the Damascene neighborhood. I don't object to the description to the "ancient part" descriptor being removed. In a vindictive manner Chris O' Hare is simply trying to distract and dig up false accusations because other editors and myself have mentioned to him not to engage in WP:OR.

On the talk page of Sofia Carson he engaged in WP:OR with other editors and was advised not to do that. Here's the link n ^[3]

He then introduced the Najeeb's memoir source that states his grandfather was born in Zahle (a town in modern-day Lebanon) and he uses that to claim that Najeeb is only from "Lebanese" ancestry....now on the next line of the very source that Chris O' Hare is using it says that Najeeb's family is from Aleppo, (a large city in modern-day Syria). So, I returned the "Syrian" national designation and kept the "Lebanese" designation, because both memoir sources state Syrian and Lebanese ancestry and remarked to Chris O' Hare that it is very deceptive to use one line from his memoir and then ignore the other line just to back his POV and remove "Syrian" ancestry from the article, even though the memoir source that Chris O' Hare is using states that.

For this article, the long-time consensus for many years had stated that Anka's mother, Camelia Tannis, is from Lebanese ancestry and his father, Andrew Anka, was from Syrian ancestry and this was always backed by sources. The said editor introduces Anka's memoir, which is a credible source and removes the "Syrian" designation (a pattern of his, if you check the recent history of his edits), because Anka states on line that he is from Lebanese ancestry; but then the said editor ignores what Anka says on the following line that his family hails from Damascus, Syria. Now, I admit that Anka does a disservice to his readers by employing the language that he does, but in earnest; if one checks the totality of sources, they employ "Lebanese", because his mother's family is from Lebanon and "Syrian" because his father's family is from Syria.

Among the 3 sources I added, is the 1960 Life magazine source, where Life had interviewed and quoted from Anka's father, which said on page 68 of the magazine The only place Paul was not an immediate international success was with his Syrian father, Andrew Anka, whose parents came from Damascus. If one reads the entire article, one will find specific quotes from Paul and his father.

I am willing to collaborate and improve the sentence flow of the biography section and make it more harmonious to the reader, but, if not for an agenda, it is not clear why the said editor keeps removing "Syrian" from the different wiki articles on Syrian-Lebanese people. Conversely I am not the one who is removing "Lebanese" from the article; I always strived to keep both when the totality of sources maintain the ancestries from both countries. George Al-Shami (talk) 20:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Your statements in quote and my answers to them below them

1)"Chris O' Hare's preoccupation on Wikipedia is to find articles on Syrian/Lebanese people and remove Syrian ancestry from that person's background, even when it is backed by the totality of credible sources"

The term Syrian-Lebanese (or Syro-Lebanese or just plain Syrian or Turkish) used in many of biographies of Lebanese people is an outdated term used pre-1943 before the creation of Lebanon to designate those who came from Ottoman Syria and later the Mandate of Lebanon and Syria.

This term still seems to be used by journalists and Wikipedia editors that dont know much about the history of the region. Someone whose ancestors came from what is today modern-day Lebanon are said to be of Lebanese descent unless they also have ancestors who came from what is today modern-day Syria which then makes it correct to state someone is of both Syrian and Lebanese descent.

2)"and when credible sources state the person has both ancestries, he looks for dubious sources and engages in"

Wrong. If you look at my edits I am doing the exact opposite. I am using official government documents scanned on familysearch.org and when not available I am resorting to autobiographies, written biographies in books, statements coming from the subjects mouth whether written or oral, patterns and places of immigration/history of immigration of populations from certain countries, and what experts on genealogy such as Henry Louis Gates have said as secondary sources. I also try to keep it simple to not confuse readers if the information in the source can be confusing.

You on the other hand try to use less notable sources such as online and magazine articles when much higher quality notable sources are available about these persons and have actually taken the more notable sources away that state something that goes against your wishes such as when you took away Najeeb Halaby's autobiography source. You also want to state in "exact words" what a source say even if it can implicate something that the author is not really trying to say and also include statements from sources that have been challenged by experts without saying so.

3) "removes Syrian" and "and adds the nationalistic designation "Lebanese"" See my answer to your first statement. I remove Syrian when there is no evidence from the most notable sources of that person having Syrian descent. Adding the fact of someone being only of Lebanese descent is not being nationalistic, its being accurate which is what Wikipedia is about.

4) "now on the next line of the very source that Chris O' Hare is using it says that Najeeb's family is from Aleppo, (a large city in modern-day Syria)" This has been challenged by Henry Louis Gates and he said that the surname Halabi does not necessarily means someone is from Aleppo which is why Queen Noor of Jordan and his father thought their grandparents came from Aleppo. Gates said they could have been from Zahle, Beirut or Damascus.

5) "For this article, the long-time consensus for many years had stated that Anka's mother, Camelia Tannis, is from Lebanese ancestry and his father, Andrew Anka, was from Syrian ancestry and this was always backed by sources" This however has never been said by Anka himself in his autobiography and radio interviews which should be the most notable sources. His autobiography btw had never been used in his wiki bio as a source for unknown mysterious reasons, perhaps because it says his parents are of Lebanese descent and does not say of Syrian descent?

6) "but then the said editor ignores what Anka says on the following line that his family hails from Damascus, Syria" If someone says his parents are of Lebanese descent then they cannot be from Syria can they? If so they would have said his parents are of Syrian or Syrian and Lebanese descent, which is not what Anka did. You also added your own original research by adding that the Bab Touma in Syria that Anka is referring to is the district in the city of Damascus which makes no sense since he is saying that the Bab Touma his ancestors live at and came to Canada from (not necessarily meaning that originated from there as you are trying to imply with your merge of sentences) is a SMALL TOWN in Syria not a district in the capital of Damascus. I said that, because he stated his parents where of Lebanese descent, he could have meant Mar Touma in modern day Lebanon which is a small town. Errors in pronunciation and spelling can happen even in autobiographies like when Najeeb Halaby wrote Zachly instead of Zahle in his autobiography.

7) "but, if not for an agenda, it is not clear why the said editor keeps removing "Syrian" from the different wiki articles on Syrian-Lebanese people". I never remove or add anything from any Wikipedia article without including notable verifiable non-biased high quality indisputable sources. Unlike you and a lot of people here that have the nerve to edit something and delete and add something without even adding new notable non-biased sources to replace the present one and when you do you add the least or less notable sources to support your edits, with the majority of people adding biased unreliable articles or websites with clear conflicts of interest.Chris O' Hare (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

unless they also have ancestors who came from what is today modern-day Syria which then makes it correct to state someone is of both Syrian and Lebanese descent that's what were concerned with over here Chris, for both Halaby and Anka that is the case.

What you're claiming that "Syrian/Lebanese" is used incorrectly here is rare, moreover don't forget in the U.S and other North American countries the Lebanese and Syrians were the two main Arabic-speaking groups from 1880 to 1965, and they lived in the same communities and as a consequence there was a lot of intermarriage and thereby they genuinely became Syrian-Lebanese; there were a handful of Syrian-Lebanese titled clubs across America.

For the Hanna Diyab article it clearly says he's from Aleppo, so in this case, why did you remove the designation "Syrian"?

Also for the Johny Srouji, which source states that his family is from Lebanon?

For the Halaby article, I admit I was wrong to remove the legitimate source you employed, the memoir, because I balked and was disappointed at what I clearly saw was an agenda on your part in that you use the line that you liked and then you ignored the line that you didn't like or that didn't subscribe to your POV. Chris we can't do that, we can't use one line that we like and then ignore the following line that we don't like; that's deceiving to the reader and unfair. However after that, I invited you to return the Halaby memoir source and implored you to include what the two lines said, however you ignored that and just included the line that you like, and then I had to add what Halaby said in the following line. Look Chris, for Halaby and Anka, the sources are clear that they have ancestries from both countries, let it go man; don't argue just for the sake of arguing. If you want to improve the language of the sentencing and the sentence flow, then make the suggestion here and we'll go over it.

There is only one Bab Touma and that's in Damascus and unlike what Anka said it's not a small town, as you said earlier, the author's make mistakes neither Halaby nor Anka are historians and I doubt they were/are very familiar with the cities and towns of Syria and Lebanon (however a learned person such as Ralph Nader would be; whom I had the pleasure of meeting, and he told me that the last time he visited Lebanon and Syria was in 1964.), (stating a geographic fact is not original research Chris. Saying that Lansing is the capital of Michigan is not original research) I think we can both agree on that; however I don't object to a 3rd party editor removing the "district of Damascus" part, if that is what you want. George Al-Shami (talk) 05:20, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

"unless they also have ancestors who came from what is today modern-day Syria which then makes it correct to state someone is of both Syrian and Lebanese descent that's what were concerned with over here Chris"

The problem is that in both Anka and Halaby's case you are trying to implicate, just like previous editors have that because a part of Anka's family supposedly emigrated from Damascus that makes him of Syrian descent.

I say supposedly because there are sources out there like ethniceleb (which is trustworthy because they use primary sources for their statements such as official birth,marriage and census records) which say both his parents where from Kfarmishki, Lebanon not just his mother like other sources claim https://ethnicelebs.com/paul-anka. Unfortunately the Canadian immigration records in order to locate this "fact" dont seem to be accessible unlike the US ones.

Now if you see my first edit regarding this, when I added his autobiography as a source https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Anka&diff=943949093&oldid=943824938 I left in the article that he came to Canada from Syria since I saw that in his biography as well however I stated he was a Lebanese because Anka in his biography states his parents were of Lebanese descent.

Then someone (a non-registered user as is usually the case) came in an changed that and added his father was Syrian because he came from Uyūn al-Wādī in Homs https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Anka&diff=963795619&oldid=963760215 I had no problem leaving his father came from a part in Syria (eventhough if you look there is not a single credible source that says his father came from Uyun al-Wadi) but I did have a problem with the statement that he was Syrian (as in of Syrian descent).

Because of the ambiguity of Anka's statements in his biography and other sources differing on whether his grandfather and father were originally from Kfarmishki in Lebanon, or from Uyun al-Wadi or Bab Touma I decided to leave that out as you can see here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Paul_Anka&diff=964228744&oldid=963795619 instead of doing Cherrypicking and to not give undue weight to something that doesnt seem to be clear as per "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement" in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight

The same I did with Najeeb Halaby when I left out that his grandparents were from Aleppo and born there around 1844 since this was questioned by Henry Louis Gates, arguably the most respect and well-known American genealogist today, in page 65 of his book https://books.google.se/books?id=meYbj1E6Ki8C&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=Almas+Mallouk+Halaby&source=bl&ots=rFkkzjZFO4&sig=ACfU3U3hlqMIm1wobTTCA4erRHx_BTcK9A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwij6KK667PoAhXPwosKHYUUDyEQ6AEwAnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Almas%20Mallouk%20Halaby&f=false. His grandfather lived in his later years in Damascus where he worked as a magistrate and both him and his son left to America from there through Beirut as it says in the newspaper article you posted here https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/The_Boston_Globe_Sat_Jun_30_1894_article_Crowded_out_of_Syria%2C_Elias_Halaby_comes_from_Ancient_Damascus.pdf which says "He came to this country from Damascus, in which city he had made his home in his late years" but this does not mean he was from Damascus as it says he lived there only in his later years and he could have been born in Zahle, in Beirut or in Damascus as Henry Louis Gates investigated. Lots of Lebanese (those from modern-day Lebanon) moved to Damascus for work reasons since Damascus was the "capital" and cultural/professional center of Ottoman Syria.

Im trying to be as exact as possible using the highest quality sources as possible as per We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high-quality sources'Bold text' as per first sentence of second paragraph in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons With the highest quality in for Historical matters being official documents, autobiographies and oral and videos as per first and second sentence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Using_primary_sources and Books/Peer-reviewed journals as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Using_primary_sources and Magazines and Newspapers from respectable publishing house as the last source if the first ones are not available as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reliable_sources

Now, when an expert in the field questions a primary source due to it being potentially inaccurate or biased we either leave out that information to not give undue weight to questionable things or cite the secondary source "often written by historians working in institutions where methodological accuracy is important to the future of the author's career and reputation" as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Strengths_and_weaknesses .

I have followed these Wikipedia guidelines, which are also the golden rules in the filed of History, and followed them to the core with my editing here and any other article. If you read those guidelines carefully you would understand the reason behind my edits instead of accusing me of taking on an agenda or a propaganda mission.

Due to the ambiguity of his statements in his autobiography I have no problem stating "His parents were of Lebanese Christian descent. His father was a Lebanese-Syrian (since he says in his biography his parents were both of Lebanese descent) who came to Canada from Bab Touma in Syria (which COULD be the Bab Touma of Damascus or could not, which is why I think is tricky to state that )) or Uyun al Wadi (even though not a single credible source states that) and his mother came from Kfarmishki, Lebanon" like other less notable sources claim. And this is even though I dont think its totally accurate and done purely out of trying to settle instead of arguing forever.

When it comes to Najeeb Halaby I suscribe to either saying "His father was born in Zahle, Lebanon and arrived to United States from Damascus where his father worked as a magistrate" and leave it at that. Or we can say "His father was born in Zahle, Lebanon. According to Halaby his grandparents where from Aleppo, Syria; however, this was put into question by genealogist Henry Louis Gates who says they could have been also from Zahle, Damascus or Beirut".Chris O' Hare (talk) 16:42, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

"For the Hanna Diyab article it clearly says he's from Aleppo, so in this case, why did you remove the designation "Syrian"? Also for the Johny Srouji, which source states that his family is from Lebanon?"'

I also see that you are tapping into my edits on Sofia Carson as well. Seems that you are running out of resources either mental-intellectual ones or quality sources to debate the matter in hand and perhaps feeling its a losing battle for you so now you resort to look into my past edits to keep using the "he is on an agenda mission" angle to get away with your edits and make me less credible.

I dont appreciate you wikihouding me and be careful with it as it can get you blocked as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment#Wikihounding. I have no problem with it since as anyone can verify that everything I add is backed by quality notable sources and extensive research. But if from now on you are going to start following me around to disrupt my work and try to use it as an angle to get away with your edits I will report you for it.

The article of Hanna Diyab had the linked word Syrian which links to modern day Syrians which is incorrect. I wouldnt add that astronomer Taqi-al Din born in the XVI century was Lebanese would I? Or that Marinus of Tyre was Lebanese would I? Eventhough both were born in modern-day Lebanon. Only in the case of immigrants or immigrants with ancestors who left the part of Ottoman Syria that later became Lebanon you could say that because most of those people that left that area in the 1880-1920s were still alive in 1943 when Lebanon was created and started calling themselves Lebanese so in that case is correct to say someone is Lebanese or of Lebanese descent.

The correct term perhaps is Ottoman Syrian in Hanna Diyab's case but since he was born into a Maronite family I decided to leave that out. 1) Because in those centuries people refered to themselves as a Christian or a Muslim from so and so city. 2) Because by the 1500 all Maronites resided in Mount Lebanon and the Maronites from Aleppo arrived there from Mount Lebanon in the 17th century as can be read here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite_Catholic_Archeparchy_of_Aleppo so Hanna Diyab born circa 1688 belonged to parents who immigrated there from Mount Lebanon. He even went back to Mount Lebanon and became a monk for some time.

As for Johny Srouji, he descends from one of the four brothers who settled in Ferzol, Machghara and Zahle in 1682 before one of their descents settled in Nazareth one hundred years later in 1772 as you can read here http://www.sroujifamily.com/eng/. You can find Johny Srouji in the family tree as one as a descent of Ibrahim http://www.sroujifamily.com/eng/FamilyTree.asp. If a family has lived in Lebanon for one hundred years before one line emigrates to Israel then after about 4 generations of marrying the population there they become ethnically Lebanese dont you think? The rest of the Srouji family from which Johny Srouji descends stayed in Lebanon since 1682 so they all became Lebanese.

Again all my edits are based on trying to present historical detailed accuracy providing the highest quality sources whether primary, secondary or both without using excessive unnecessary and/or questionable information. If that is an agenda you got it wrong Al-Shami. In fact most of the editors that edit on Lebanese people are Syrians and Assyrians trying to take away the Lebanese ancestry through plain vandalism here on Wikipedia. One of the latest examples out of the many I have seen in the past is this user https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Aramerican. Unfortunately the actions of users like Aramerican gives a more thoughtful editor of Syrian descent such as yourself a harder time here in Wikipedia when it comes to their edits on similar pages. 16:57, 27 June 2020 (UTC)Chris O' Hare (talk)

It's true that Gates couldn't find which city the Halaby family is from, he said they could be from Zahle, Damascus, or Beirut. However the 2 sources Najeeb and his daughter, both say their family hail from Aleppo; therefore Gates inability to find their ancestral city does not negate what Najeeb and his daughter said. Don't forget oral history can be very accurate, as I'll learned that the hard way myself. I think the sentence with both lines from Najeeb's memoir and his daughter's memoir is fine and backed by the two sources. Najeeb says his father was born in Zahle (again, being born there doesn't mean the family is from Zahle), whereas the daughter contradicts him and says that he only lived there for a couple of years; however both father and daughter both say the family hails from Aleppo.

In Anka's case he says "Bab Touma", where my ancestors are from". Life magazine mentions The only place Paul was not an immediate international success was with his Syrian father, Andrew Anka, whose parents came from Damascus. the phrasal verb "comes from" means to originate or hail from; therefore it's crystal clear that Andrew was born in an Ottoman Syria town which is in today Modern-Day Lebanon, but his family moved there from Damascus- per Andrew Anka in 1960 and his son in his memoir. Primary documents are good, however we have no way of verifying if the celebrity site is indeed using primary sources; but in the end it does not negate what came out of the father and son's mouths.

"(which COULD be the Bab Touma of Damascus or could not, which is why I think is tricky to state that ))" No, that is not correct, we know that he's talking about Bab Touma, Damascus, because the father -Andrew Anka- told Life magazine in 1960 that his family is from Damascus; so we know 100% based on what the father said in 1960 that Paul is talking about Bab Touma, Damascus, Syria. Not only that I challenge you to find a Bab Touma outside of Damascus; ask your mother about this, I'm certain she'll tell you Bab Touma is in Damascus.

Based on the memoir source and the Life magazine source, which backs the son's memoir, I propose incorporating direct quotes from Paul's memoir with the following "His mother's family is from Lebanon, and although Paul Anka states in his memoir My parents were of Lebanese descent, he also mentions in the following line on the same page of his memoir that his dad's family is from Bab Tuma, Syria.

It's straight from the horse's mouths; both father and son mention that the Andrew Anka's family comes from Damascus; both sources employ the phrasal verb "comes from". This is not about my way or your way Chris, this about what the sources say. The celebrity site does not show us the primary document, moreover birth certificate tells you were the person and their parents were born; however it doesn state where the family comes "from". Whereas in the Paul's memoir he says "comes from" and Life magazine says whose parents came from Damascus. George Al-Shami (talk) 07:08, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

"It's true that Gates couldn't find which city the Halaby family is from, he said they could be from Zahle, Damascus, or Beirut. However the 2 sources Najeeb and his daughter, both say their family hail from Aleppo; therefore Gates inability to find their ancestral city does not negate what Najeeb and his daughter said"

I am not saying Henry Louis Gates negated the possibility that Najeeb's grandparents were from Aleppo. But he did questioned and considered the possibility they were also from Zahle, Beirut and Damascus and when a statement in a primary source (this case two autobiographies) is put in question by an expert in the field in a secondary source you need to follow Wikipedia's guidelines of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Strengths_and_weaknesses to the core since biographies require higher level of accuracy and quality sources as stated in the guidelines.

Its about following Wikipedia's guidelines George not about what you wish or how you wish to state things in your edits. Following the Wikipedia guidelines means stating that "His father was born in Zahle, Lebanon and arrived to United States from Damascus where his father worked as a magistrate" and leave it at that. Or saying "His father was born in Zahle, Lebanon. According to Halaby his grandparents where from Aleppo, Syria; however, this was put into question by genealogist Henry Louis Gates who says they could have been also from Zahle, Damascus or Beirut". Saying "Najeeb father's was a Lebanese-Syrian who was born in Zahle, and whose parents hailed from Aleppo" is not following Wikipedia's guidelines of accuracy as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_source#Strengths_and_weaknesses

When it comes to Anka you said "therefore it's crystal clear that Andrew was born in an Ottoman Syria town which is in today Modern-Day Lebanon, but his family moved there from Damascus"

That is the part I have a problem with because by interpreting things that way you are implicating that his father was of Syrian descent which has never been said by Anka neither in Autobiography nor in any live or radio interview such as this one where he also said that with his own words in minute 3.25- 4:30 of his interview archived in NPR.org with link https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4793881?storyId=4793881&t=1593052812491 that he was just of Lebanese descent. Because Anka has always stated his parents are of Lebanese descent not of Syrian and Lebanese descent its the other way around George. His grandparents (paternal and maternal) were all Lebanese and his paternal grandfather or father moved from Lebanon to Damascus where he lived before he emigrated to Canada. Now if he would have said he was of Syrian descent as well then the version you mentioned would apply. But that is not the case.Chris O' Hare (talk) 09:54, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I accept most of your proposal, minus the first sentence that says he was born in Zahle, because his daughter in her memoir contradicts him and says that her grandfather lived there for a couple of years. "According to Halaby his grandparents where from Aleppo, Syria; however, this was put into question by genealogist Henry Louis Gates who says they could have been also from Zahle, Damascus or Beirut". However, if you want to present both sides of the contradiction, then that's fair and doesn't ignore the other side of the contradiction. "Najeeb says his father was born in Zahle, however his daughter said that he only lived there for a couple of years. According to Halaby his grandparents where from Aleppo, Syria; however, this was put into question by genealogist Henry Louis Gates who says they could have been also from Zahle, Damascus or Beirut".

As for Anka, I'm not implicating anything, Paul says in his memoir In a small town in Syria called Bab Touma -where my ancestors came from there's no interpretation when it comes to the phrasal verb "comes from". Now, obviously, Paul Anka, contradicts himself in his autobiography; that's why my earlier proposal stated to present the contradiction "Lebanese Christian descent" with "Bab Touma, Syria where my ancestors came from"; this way it is exactly per source. If you disagree, I don't want to move in circles, we will just have to wait for 3rd party input. George Al-Shami (talk) 19:39, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

"because his daughter in her memoir contradicts him and says that her grandfather lived there for a couple of years"

I dont think his daughter is contradicting him actually. Najeeb's father was born around 1880 and arrived to the United States as a young boy in 1891 so perhaps that's what she meant by briefly. Najeeb's father also could have moved to Damascus with this father Elias who worked as a magistrate for a few years, so he was born in Zahle and perhaps left to Damascus perhaps when he was 5-7 years old or even younger hence another possible reason she is saying he lived there briefly.

I think the part that perhaps she could have gotten wrong was the "he lived in Zahle before he joined his family in Beirut for their trip" and forgot to mention he was living in Damascus with his father, just a thought....

Remember we are basically doing genealogy here George. The Association of Professional Genealogists's Code of Ethics states "do not publish unproven information as proven" as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy#Ethical_guidelines The only real proven thing is that "His father was born in Zahle and lived there shortly" either because he arrived as a child to the US in 1891 or because he moved to Damascus as a child with his father and then emigrated with him to the US. Whether is grandfather was from Aleppo, Zahle, Beirut or Damascus is unknown.

I honestly would rather keep it shorter instead of stating both contradictions and just state Henry Louis Gates part about Najeeb's grandparents origins out because if you add "both contradictions" 1) Respectable administrators are not going to like the excessive rambling and edit it 2) You are going to invite vandalism. So saying "Najeeb's father was born in Zahle, Lebanon. According to Najeeb father grandfather was from Aleppo but genealogist Henry Louis Gates states he could have also been from Zahle, Beirut or Damascus" is more concise. Or we can leave out what is uncertain completely and say "Najeeb's father was born in Zahle and live there briefly before emigrating with his father to America. His father was a magistrate in Ottoman Syria"

"Now, obviously, Paul Anka, contradicts himself in his autobiography; that's why my earlier proposal stated to present the contradiction "Lebanese Christian descent" with "Bab Touma, Syria where my ancestors came from"; this way it is exactly per source"

Well it depends. If you merge the two separate sentences into one like you did in your edit you are making his contradiction sound even more contradictory and confusing to the readers here in Wikipedia. You are also violating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material

And this is IF he is contradicting himself which you are assuming. Elaborating on that I saw that in your third last response which I forgot to comment you said "There is only one Bab Touma and that's in Damascus and unlike what Anka said it's not a small town, as you said earlier, the author's make mistakes neither Halaby nor Anka are historians and I doubt they were/are very familiar with the cities and towns of Syria and Lebanon (however a learned person such as Ralph Nader would be; whom I had the pleasure of meeting, and he told me that the last time he visited Lebanon and Syria was in 1964"

What makes you think that Paul Anka is not a learned person as you imply in this comment? What makes you think he hasn't visited his small town of "Bab Touma"? Paul Anka has more than plenty of money to go back to the town of his grandparents whenever he pleases. In fact he seems to be quite knowledgable about Lebanon since he was a youngster since in page 121 of his autobiography he says he sent his brother to Beirut when his mother died and paid for his Brummana High School there https://books.google.se/books?redir_esc=y&id=nK3YhlaflSQC&q=Lebanon#v=snippet&q=Lebanon&f=false

Since his "small town mistake" is unlikely given what I state above, why haven't you considered that it could have been a spelling mistake and that he actually meant Mar Touma in Lebanon? https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mar+Touma,+Lebanon/@34.4080564,35.7986613,9.96z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x1522239594b57bb5:0x3b67f9457468261a!8m2!3d34.5115989!4d36.0281571 30% of the population of Mar Touma seems to be Christian Orthodox from what I saw which is the community Paul Anka belongs to, plus its close to Uyun al-Wadi in Homs which some way less notable and biased sources state his father is from.

To avoid making the "contradiction" in his biography even worse, the sentences should be separated, as they should be anyways as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material. And I suscribe to stating "His parents are of Lebanese Christian descent. His father came to Canada from Syria and his mother came from Lebanon". Although Im pretty sure a vandal is going to come in an add Uyun al-Wadi and Kfarmishki to it so if fine putting it there tooChris O' Hare (talk) 22:55, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

For Halaby, to say that his "grandfather" said that they're from Aleppo, we are straying from the source that says the family hails from Aleppo; how is Najeeb Elias Senior's birth in Zahle "The only real proven thing"?, only Najeeb's memoir says so. For Anka, I prefer to keep the 2 contradictions, because when you say "his father came to Canada from Syria" we're straying from the source that says "whose family is from Bab Touma". George Al-Shami (talk) 04:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

I dont like short arguments. Either you explain and elaborate on my comments which I take time and research to expose and back it up with sources or things said in the sources and the Wikipedia guidelines or please stop wasting my time and adding your original research to the high qualities sources I have brought to both Halaby's and Anka's articles (biographies, oral recordings and high quality secondary sources from experts in genealogy) by merging sentences that are separate in the sources I brought to implicate something that contradicts the first sentence, by publishing information from those sources that has been questioned by experts therefore not totally proven even if said in those primary sources, by adding things that have not been really said in the sources such as Bab Touma being the old District of Damascus and then adding less notable sources to support your violations to Wikipedia guidelines. You have committed three violations to Wikipedia's guidelines so you should be lucky Im still spending my time on this matter.

On top of that you have wikihounded to try to discredit my well sourced edits accusing me of having an agenda to get away with your violations. Back when you violated Wikpedia guidelines in the Halaby article I left it alone and didnt continue the argument in the Talk Page but you decided then to wikihound me and reversed my edit on Maronites and added or kept an outdated source and now you wikihouned me to my Paul Anka edit and violate the Wikipedia guidelines there as well and keep disrupting me. Dont you worry, I will be reporting on all of these things since on top of putting up with your violations I have tried to reach consensus with you a 2nd time without any progress.

It wasn't his "grandfather" that said they were from Aleppo, it was Najeeb and his daughter Queen Noor that said that and yes that should be stated in the article IF the secondary source from an expert that is saying they could have also come from Zahle, Beirut or Damascus is added. Since Queen Noor is not saying her grandfather was born in another town other than Zahle by saying he lived there briefly and Gates is only questioning the Aleppo part then its fair to say its proven information.

If fact in cases where an information has not been questioned by an expert, the source which is the oldest is the one with more weight. In the field of history, the older and closer the source is to the event or the person involved with the event (in this case Najeeb not Queen Noor) the more weight is considered to have as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters.

As for Anka it doesnt say "whose family is from Bab Touma" he said that is where his family CAME from, he didn't even said COME from which could imply origin, but CAME from which means generally immigrated from. When he said his "ancestors" came from Bab Touma he had to be referring to his grandparents since it he would have been talking about his ancestors further back in time he wouldn't be saying his parents were of Lebanese descent. Anka has always identified himself as Lebanese even if his father came from wherever anyways as can be seen in his biography when he said his parents were of Lebanese descent which he also said in the 2005 radio interview. By merging the two contradictory sentences or stating the sentences separately the way you want to you are implying Syrian descent to Paul Anka, something he has never said himself nor identifies with.

And as I said earlier adding contradictory and unproven things in Wiki articles that invite vandalism is never advisable. Adding things the way you say its going to invite vandalism because someone comes in and sees "his ancestors came from Bab Touma" and they are going to change his Lebanese descent to Syrian descent because that is what that implies or insinuates, and even if they dont they will read that and interpret it as if he was of Syrian descent which is not what Anka has said in his autobiography and oral interviews and identifies with. Plus when readers see Bab Touma even if you add small village to it they will think its the Bab Touma which its unsure and vandals or lazy editors are going to link Bab Touma so it directs to the old district in Damascus.Chris O' Hare (talk) 13:47, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Chris, as I mentioned before I respond to comments that address what were discussing (not changing the subject and second-guessing what the source says. Anka says "Bab Touma", then that's it! You cannot make something up and say it could be Mar Touma; that's very inappropriate.) and I also respond to comments based on evidence. Before you throw baseless accusations at me, you should have checked the edit history of the Maronites page. Had you done that you would have seen that I was editing that article long before you showed up on Wikipedia and it was on my watchlist. I totally disagree with your edits on that page, but guess what, I removed it from my watchlist. Do as you please with it, I don't care about that article anymore. A year ago an editor started politicizing the article, injecting it with phalangist politics rather than history and sourced facts (another Lebanese editor agreed with me) and then it just went downhill after that.

I was more than willing to collaborate with you, but it's clear that you are subscribing to a strategy where you say anything and throw anything at me just to prolong the discussion and pound me into submission just to accede to your views and wishes; that's not right. (Saying that Bab Touma could be Mar Touma, when Anka says Bab Touma, come on man!) (Chris, just because other editors have done that , it doesn't mean you emulate them, that's not the way to collaborate) .

Example of you throwing anything at me just to aggravate me and forcibly accept your proposal: As for Anka it doesn't say "whose family is from Bab Touma" he said that is where his family CAME from, he didn't even said COME from which could imply origin, but CAME from which means generally immigrated from Chris did you even read what you typed before you published it. "Come from" is the infinitive of this phrasal verb. "Comes from" is the present tense of "come from", and "came from" is the past tense of "come from". It means the same thing! One is the present tense and the other is the past tense. My goodness, I teach this for a living Chris; if you don't believe me check the phrasal verb dictionaries online; very disappointed with you.

As you predicted an ip editor made an edit, however he/she did not remove "Lebanese" as you were worried about. Chris, I have placed a direct citation from the memoir, it is straight from the horse's mouth; kindly, do not revert this as your sentence His father came to Canada from Damascus, Syria is unsourced, not of the sources you introduced say that neither do mine. There is no implication as you keep saying when we permit the reader to read word for word what the author says in a direct citation.

Moreover, I thoroughly checked the source the ip editor reintroduced, and the article on Paul Anka, is subsection of a news outlet, Radio- Canada International; it is 100% legit, it is not a blog; please do not remove it.

Look Chris, you mistakenly believed that Anka is from 100% Lebanese ancestry and you mistaakenly believed that Anka claims to be from "100% Lebanese ancestry", your memoir source, an ip editor and myself introduced legitimate sources that showed otherwise. Chris, please, move on, there are over 100 articles about Lebanese subjects on Wikipedia. When you pointed out that I was wrong to remove the Najeeb Halaby memoir, I admitted my mistake to you. You were proven wrong about his origins and claims, just move on man. Also since we're both monitoring this article, if any editor removes "Lebanese ancestry" we'll both revert it. George Al-Shami (talk) 21:21, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

"Bab Touma", then that's it! You cannot make something up and say it could be Mar Touma; that's very inappropriate.

It might be Bab Touma indeed but it is you that is linking it to the Old District of Damascus eventhough Anka says that the Bab Touma where his grandfather came from (as in immigrated to Canada from since Anka says both his parents are of Lebanese descent) was a small town not a district in the capital.

It was you that said that he probably was not learned about his origins and made a mistake eventhough there are sources that show he is indeed very knowledgeable about his origins. In page 121 in his autobiography he said he sent his brother to do his high school in a very specific school in Beirut and the source I attached says he was in the birth town of his grandparents in Lebanon in 1988 https://www.deseret.com/1998/3/7/19367340/anka-to-honor-his-roots-with-concert-in-lebanon

Because of the above and because he states both his parents are of Lebanese descent I asked the question that perhaps it could be possible his mistake was a spelling mistake and Bab Touma in Syria (Ottoman Syria in this case btw) could be Mar Touma in Lebanon. You cannot ignore reasonable questions as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Etiquette#Principles_of_Wikipedia_etiquette

you are subscribing to a strategy where you say anything and throw anything at me just to prolong the discussion and pound me into submission just to accede to your views and wishes; that's not right

I have provided 3 top quality sources to this article and 2 top quality sources to the Najeeb Halaby page. I keep bringing sources and reminding you you are being disruptive with your edits and have ignored about 5 wikipedia policies. You dont seem to acknowledge your disruptive ways which is why the discussion has prolonged.

If you feel pounded to submission because I keep showing you your disruptive ways as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing and you have run out of quality reliable non-biased sources and mental resources and keep failing to read the wikipedia guidelines and adhere to them to discuss the topic then this is due to your incompetence in dealing with wikipedia editing as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Competence_is_required#What_is_meant_by_%22Competence_is_required%22?

Consensus is reached by using reasons based in wikipedia policies, sources, and common sense; as well as suggesting alternative solutions or compromises that may satisfy all concerns as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Consensus#Through_discussion You have choosen to leave the consensus building in the talk page to then come back later to add your disruptive edits proving your disruptive and incompetent ways again.

This time you have added all 4 sources at the end of your unnecessarily long quote as if all 4 quotes say the same thing which they dont.

Also another guideline of Wikipedia is do not remove content or change the whole content as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Editing_policy#Try_to_fix_problems Rephrasing to more accurately represent the sources is the way to fix things otherwise you are exhibiting ownership behavior. You need to be cautious when removing or rewriting large amounts of content the way you want it because you dont own this nor any article here in Wikipedia. Following the guideline means adjusting how things are written in the article before our edits took place initially, not removing and changing large amounts of text to say things the way you please or with the format you please specially with unnecessarily long quotes that are not concise.

Chris, please, move on, there are over 100 articles about Lebanese subjects on Wikipedia.

So I put the hard work of finding high quality reliable non-biased sources to articles and adhere to wikipedia guidelines so that a disruptive user comes in and violates the guidelines and twists what the sources I bring are trying to say to imply something not meant nor backed by anything that has come from the author?Chris O' Hare (talk) 09:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, again you're throwing unfounded allegations at me with no evidence. I'm using the same memoir source that you say is "High quality". You only want to keep the line that you like and ignore the line that you don't like. Ok, that's not right, I will see what the appropriate steps are to resolve this. George Al-Shami (talk) 17:58, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

How should we state in wiki bio what Paul Anka has said in his autobiography about his origins? Ongoing discussion found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Paul_Anka#Paul_Anka's_Lebanese_descent_in_his_autobiography_and_own_words_in_radio_interviewChris O' Hare (talk) 15:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm pinging @Slatersteven: and @Boing! said Zebedee: to help settle a content dispute with the other involved editor Chris O' Hare on the Paul Anka article, as both editors helped mediate a dispute on another article. We've discussed this dispute for the better part of a month, but it hasn't gotten anywhere.

The dispute is about Anka's ethnicity, and how best to present an apparent contradiction in the memoir source, as in his memoir Anka says his parents are both from "Lebanese Christian descent", and then on the following line he says, "In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors are from". I've tried to keep both and maintain NPOV and stick to what the memoir source says, but the other involved editor keeps reverting it. There are two sources that are being used by myself and Chris O' Hare.

1st source: Anka's autobiography: ^[1]

2nd source: August 29, 1960 issue of Life magazine: ^[2]

3rd source: Radio-Canada news article, which is French version of the CBC (Canadian broadcasting corporation) https://www.rcinet.ca/arabs-canada/2015/03/23/paul-anka/ Chris casts doubt on the legitimacy of this source. because it contradicts his POV.

Both sources show that Anka has 2 ancestries: Lebanese and Syrian, but Chris O' Hare doesn't want his Syrian ancestry to be mentioned. In the memoir source My Way: An Autobiography, Anka recounted My parents were of Lebanese Christian descent and the name Anka itself had an almost folkloric history attached to it. It means noose in "Arabic" and it came about in this way: In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors are from- a man raped a young girl of thirteen.[1]; Chris wants to keep the first part which mentions Anka's Lebanese ancestry, but keeps removing the second part "In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors are from", because it goes against his pov. In our month-long discussion I mentioned to him that to stay NPOV, both parts have to be mentioned. However he changes this direct quote "In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors are from" into "his father came to America from Syria" to deny Anka of any Syrian ancestry. The mention of Syrian ancestry is backed up by the Life magazine source: The only place Paul was not an immediate international success was with his Syrian father, Andrew Anka, whose parents came from Damascus.[2]. The sentence that he uses is not supported by any source and since I mentioned to him it's original research, he has since flipped this argument in a dishonest fashion on me and is using it on the second part of Anka's sentence, which is a direct quotation from Anka. On another article about a Syrian/Lebanese person, he removed the mention of Syrian ancestry, even though he himself introduced a New York Times source which said that Halaby was "Lebanese-Syrian #[116]; which shows an agenda. Here's the diff #[117]. Also his edit of removing reference to his Syrian ancestry has been challenged by two other editors. #[118] and #[119], despite that he keeps reverting it.

Chris is using semantics and WP:OR to interpret what Anka meant by "In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors are from". I've tried adding direct quotations in the past to help prevent his accusation of me "twisting" what Anka is saying, but Chris keeps reverting it. George Al-Shami (talk) 19:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The 2nd source is actually "With Paul Anka, 'Rock Swings,' Part Two". NPR.org. Fresh Air radio talk show broadcast. 2005. p. minute 3.25- 4:38 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4793881?storyId=4793881&t=1593052812491&t=1598738610623 but its no surprise that user George Al-Shami left that out since he is a disruptive user. Just the fact that he left the 2nd source out should tell you what kind of user we are dealing with her. Disruptive in his edits and disruptive in his arguments and counter-arguments in his "consensus" building attempts.

According to George Al-Shami "In the memoir source My Way: An Autobiography, Anka recounted My parents were of Lebanese Christian descent and the name Anka itself had an almost folkloric history attached to it. It means noose in "Arabic" and it came about in this way: In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors are from- a man raped a young girl of thirteen.[1]; Chris wants to keep the first part which mentions Anka's Lebanese ancestry, but keeps removing the second part "In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors are from", because it goes against his pov. In our month-long discussion I mentioned to him that to stay NPOV, both parts have to be mentioned. However he changes this direct quote "In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors are from" into "his father came to America from Syria" to deny Anka of any Syrian ancestry. The mention of Syrian ancestry is backed up by the Life magazine source. [2].

As you can see, again, even in his counter-arguments this user is WP:DISRUPTSIGNS and resorts to twisting what the source says to push his POV since the source says "In a small town in Syria called Bab Tuma -where my ancestors CAME from" not "where my ancestors ARE from". He also twists what the Life magazine source says claiming it mentions Anka's Syrian ancestry which is totally false. If you read the Life Magazine source on page 68 it says Anka's grandparents CAME from Damascus, just like Anka says on his autobiography but that doesnt mean they are of Syrian ancestry.Chris O' Hare (talk) 22:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

George Al-Shami has been reported twice for his disruptive edits with the latest report that lists all his violations found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#User:_George_Al-Shami

George Al-Shami Fails to understand that just because someone comes from x country (which is the same as arriving from/immigrated from) it doesnt necesarily means the person is of x ancestry. There is no primary source out there where Paul Anka himself claims he is of Syrian ANCESTRY. In his autobriography he claimed both his parents where of Lebanese descent and the radio interview and he was Lebanese/of Lebanese ancestry and never said they were of Syrian ancestry nor that he had Syrian ancestry.

George Al-Shami is trying to word things and change the format to imply as if Anka is of Syrian ancestry and to make the reader believe "he tried to say he was of Syrian ancestry he just didnt quite say it but look guys he said this here so he must be of Syrian ancestry"

His paternal grandparents lived in Bab Touma, Damascus before emigrating to America but Anka states his parents were both of Lebanese ancestry in his biography and that he is Lebanese/of Lebanese ancestry in his radio interview which means that his paternal grandparents must have been of Lebanese ancestry and happened to live in Bab Touma, Damascus before emigrating. A similar case happened with Neil Sedaka, whose paternal grandparents were of Lebanese-Jewish descent but were living in Istanbul, Turkey before emigrating to America.

In the case of Najeeb Halaby, his father was born in Zahle (today Lebanon) and lived there briefly before emigrating with Najeeb's grandfather as a child to America. Henry Louis Gates says that it is uncertain if Najeeb's grandfather (who was living in Damascus in his later years where he worked as a magistrate) was from Aleppo, Zahle, Beirut or Damascus according to the genealogy research Gates did on Queen Noor, but user Al-Shami wants to state Najeeb's grandfather was fro Aleppo as if it is a proven fact. Yes, Najeeb himself said his grandfather came from Aleppo in his autobiography but this was put into question by the reputable genealogist Gates so that should be stated as a secondary source.Chris O' Hare (talk) 22:11, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:Request for arbitration has a specific meaning here on Wikipedia, and this is not the place to make a request. Your request is also not suitable for arbitration since it's largely content dispute and in addition it's not intractable, it's largely been between two editors. If you want to request help to resolve content dispute, start with reading WP:Dispute resolution. After reading that, you should also be aware that there is no way to get a binding decision/ruling by some third party on a content dispute. The most you can achieve is WP:Community consensus. Seeking the involvement of more editors is part of that process but you should understand that they will just be commenting on how they see the dispute based on their understanding of our policies and guidelines and offering suggestions on how to resolve it, rather than issuing some sort of binding ruling or judgement. Nil Einne (talk) 05:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi @George Al-Shami and @Chris O' Hare, inviting you both here to discuss the issue here rather than in edit summaries. I am not involved and do not have an opinion on the matter other than the article's history is becoming a mess. Feel free to update the section header as I may have misunderstood the issue. S0091 (talk) 20:47, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi S0091 Thanks for the invite but this discussion was already had almost two years ago between the two of us as you can see in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Paul_Anka#Paul_Anka's_Lebanese_descent_in_his_autobiography_and_own_words_in_radio_interview

George Al-Shami continues to violate Wikipedia's policies by not discussing there and just editing again as he pleases. I have told him many times that the way he wants to present his edit violates WP:SYN and that the mention of his ancestors coming to America from Bab Touma is already said.

By the way, as I told him before, in his autobiography Anka says Bab Touma is a SMALL VILLAGE in Ottoman Syria not the district of Damascus as Al-Shami wants to conclude. There is a Touma village with a small community of Greek Orthodox Christians in today's Lebanon called Mar Touma as you can see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mar_Touma (part of Ottoman Syria when his parents left to Canada) but Al-Shami with his OR wants to make the small village Anka mentions as its the same as the district in Damascus just because LIFE MAGAZINE states his father arrived to Canada from Damascus (still being of Lebanese descent though as Anka claims and not of Syrian descent as other less reliable sources claim and not what Anka claims). If he wants to involve 3rd parties he should go ahead.

Again this is not what Anka himself has said and what he considers himself to be and identifies with. On page 10 of his autobiography Anka clearly states: "We were all lumped together in one package, when in fact we were Lebanese Christians". On page 11 he states: I was born Paul Anka. My parents were of Lebanese Christian descent. On the radio interview on min 4:35 "He says I am a Canadian of Lebanese descent, and thats what it was".

The other sources he just added such as rcinet.ca and alarabiya.net are not reliable sources. Jpost and even Britannica are not as reliable as his autobiography and his interview since its not what Anka himself has said about himself and identifies with.Chris O' Hare (talk) 21:39, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare, like I said I am not involved nor have any opinion but hopefully the link to the prior discussion will be helpful to @George Al-Shami, assuming they were not already aware. To me, now that you have engaged, it is George Al-Shami's responsibility to engage as well and for either of you to take advantage of the dispute resolutions available if consensus cannot be gained. S0091 (talk) 21:56, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Here is Paul Anka again HIMSELF identifying only as Lebanese in his Twitter account defending and supporting Lebanon after the 2020 Beirut Explosion https://twitter.com/paulanka/status/1291063817141534721. Is there anything from Anka supporting Syria and the Syrian people during the Syrian Civil War? If he identifies as Syrian or is of Syrian descent shouldnt he, as a huge celebrity that he is, came out and said something about it like F. Murray Abraham did in 2015 when Abraham came out supporting Syrian refugees? Cause I cant find anything.

He is welcomed to bring 3rd parties to engage if he pleases.Chris O' Hare (talk) 15:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare so why should we not add what Anka himself wrote in his autobiography ? I'm curious, he mentions that both of his parents were of lebanese descent and then goes on to say that his ancestors came from Bab Touma Whatsupkarren (talk) 02:30, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare not sure why youre still refusing to engage in a discussion even though thats what youre asking for in your edit summaries, it is really not a good gesture when a user just reverts edits without discussing an issue on Talk page.

Are you claiming that by adding what paul anka says in his autobiography, im rephrasing things incorrectly id really appreciate you to explain why you think we shouldn't take what anka says in his autobiography Whatsupkarren (talk) 04:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Whatsupkarren As I have told @George Al-Shami at the beginning of this section and many times before in the first section of our past discussion, the way him and you want to present this edit violates WP:SYN and that the mention of his ancestors coming to America from Bab Touma is already said in the edit.Chris O' Hare (talk) 09:36, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare

How does mentioning what he said in his autobiography violate WP:SYN? when you make a claim, you're supposed to corraborate it.

"And that the mention of his ancestors coming to America from Bab Touma is already said in the edit"

You just reverted it even though there's an ongoing discussion

The way you want to edit out the fact that he said in his autobiography that his ancestors came from Bab touma is indefensible. Are you suggesting that Paul Anka's ancestors are Lebanese, implying that before they were in Bab touma, Damascus. they were in Lebanon? If so, why didn't Paul just say that? He could've easily said, "My ancestors came from a Lebanese village named X"

This claim itself is an original research

His ancestors couldve arrived in Beirut escaping the 1860 damascus massacre of Christians. His parents might have both been born in Lebanon but his grandparents or great grandparents couldve been Damascenes. No source for this, but when someone says his ancestors came from X city it means his ancestors came from X city. Its very simple. Whatsupkarren (talk) 10:33, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Whatsupkarren Who is editing out that his ancestors came from Bab Touma? What I have a problem is the word However that you want to throw in there which is a violation of :SYN. It already says his father came from Bab Touma so no need to add the However which is :SYN, and instead just simply stated exactly what he says in his bio exactly how he says it. Dont SYN to imply which is a violation.

Again, be careful assuming he is referring to the district of Bab Touma in Damascus since he says his Bab Touma is a small village which contradicts this. Yes he said Bab Touma is a small village in Syria, but remember back then everything was called Syria as in Ottoman Syria which is not the same as todays Syria. Chris O' Hare (talk) 11:04, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare

Well then your couldve clarified that from the beggining and removed "however" only. I'm not sure though that the word however is an original research and perhaps we should ask a third party opinion.

You're editing out the text which says his ancestors came from Bab touma chris. I wanna add what he says in his biogrpahy that his ANCESTORS (and not only his father) came from Bab touma. Because that's what he says. Whatsupkarren (talk) 15:11, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Paul Anka 2601:80:8400:166A:AD64:499E:2683:74F4 (talk) 23:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Not privy to this discussion and don't know or care one way or the other, just to point out that persons are not really reliable sources for their own stories. Sometimes they were told family stories that aren't true. Sometimes they have misplaced or remade memories from decades ago, unintentionally. Sometimes they misunderstood things that they were told. Sometimes they believe something about themselves that they want to believe, obviously this is common. Sometimes there are things about themselves that they want you to believe, and they will cherrypick and spin at the least. And so forth.

Lot of people play cute with their ages for instance. Baseball age is a thing, and lots of entertainers and other folks do that too. Stan Kenton believed into middle age that he was several months younger than he was, because his parents wanted him to believe that he was conceived after they married. I'm sure he's not the only one. Gene Tierney believed her birthday was one day off from her real birth date because... well, as I said, not reliable.

Furthermore this stuff gets into sources even normally reliable ones. A writer interviews a guy, he says he's 100% Polish, the writer will write that. The fact-checkers at the New Yorker or Der Spiegel will dig into his source ancestral documents etc. if available and determine if it is true before printing it. That's expensive and few journals do that, and book publishers almost never.

Usually details like these are not contested so whatever. But here it is contested I gather. In such a case we can't go "case closed" based on what story his parents told him or what he would like to believe. It is a data point but not more. We really have to do some serious digging sometimes to get the real answer tho. If it's contested and we can't get a real answer, the best thing is probably say use the "according to X..." construction and lay out our sources and let the reader decide what she thinks. Herostratus (talk)

Is there a need to keep the albums list here when it's already on the discography page? Having it in two places is just inviting content mismatch between the two versions. Just an IMHO from someone passing through to fix a lint error. Gamapamani (talk) 12:54, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Is there a reason why his dating relationship with Annette Funicello is not mentioned? Her entry mentions their relationship, and that it inspired him to write "Puppy Love." A published source of this information is cited in her entry so mentioning here it would not involve the "mortal sin" of "original research." Why is it not mentioned? 2603:800C:3A00:59B5:88FE:450E:3F9B:79FA (talk) 10:18, 17 February 2025 (UTC)

I changed the infobox photo from Old Paul Anka to Young Paul Anka, as seen here:

and this was reverted per WP:BRD by editor User:Geraldo Perez, with an edit summary of "Reverted good faith edits by Herostratus: Use recent images while he is alive, pick a life representative image after he dies", and fine, and so the next step is to discuss it. So here we are.

So, my reasoning is, in any article's lede and infobox we are trying to give the basic essence of the entity as quickly and clearly as as possible. Lots of readers only want to read the lede I assume, and even for those who don't the lede gives the best frame to start digging down. Either way, the reader wants to answer the question "what is this entity?"

So, what is the essence of the entity "Paul Anka"? Is it "Teen pop singer (also with notable accomplishments in his 20s and 30s)" or is it "Old guy musician"? It's the former. His big #1 hit, "Diana", was released when he was about 15. That's I think his biggest claim to notability. Close behind are his hits "Lonely Boy" (#1) and "Put Your Head On My Shoulder" (#2) were also released when he was a teenager; his other big hit "Having My Baby (#1) was released when he was about 33, which still is still a lot closer to the photo than 83 (the New Paul Anka image says it's sometime in his 20s). He had some other, smaller, hits, but his last charting hit was released when he was 43. His last album getting above #95 on the chart was released when he was 35.

His other really big claim to notability is the English lyrics for "My Way" which he wrote in his late 20s. His other stuff in the lede was also writing, which of course is less well known, but even so... "Tonight Show Theme", age 21. "She's A Lady", age 29. The other three were co-written with Michael Jackson when he was 39. He apparently didn't do anything for which he was well known for after age 33. If he had died then, his notability would be near what it is now.

That's what's in the lede. Why should the time of the photo be way outside the time of the events in the lede. Does not match.

We don't usually do this for other entities I don't think. SS United States shows the liner in its prime, not its current decrepit state. Should we do that, then change the picture back when it sinks? There aren't a lot of decrepit entities that are known better for when they were in good repair, but that haven't been demolished yet, I don't think... for Michigan Central Station we do use a recent picture, but that's all we have that's free, except a drawing. And the image used is framed such that it probably shows it as close to its appearance in its prime as any we have, rather than one of the many that show the decay more clearly. Same is done for the Buffalo Station I think.

(For all this of course we're talking about the lede or infobox image. There's plenty of space and good reason to show old Paul Anka and rusted-out SS United States and etc. etc. down in the article body.)

We seem to be assuming that, for people only, the majority or plurality of readers are best served by seeing the person in their current state. I can't think of a reason that that would be so and I doubt that it is so. I don't think we should switch the life painting of Jeremy Bentham for an image of him in his current state. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if there's data, which I doubt, and so without date... I would think that people want to learn about the person who sang "Diana" and "Lonely Boy" and "Having My Baby" and wrote "My Way", and the lede picture misleads them about who that person was. It wasn't an old person. They have to dig down to find that. If the lede had "Paul Anka is famous for performing for an extraordinarily long time, seven decades..." or "Paul Anka is famous for having a string of hits in his 70s and 80s..." or whatever, that'd be different maybe. But it doesn't.

If this isn't written down somewhere, then I'm hoping to see a convincing argument on the merits, "Using the old guy photo serves the reader better because ___________". What goes in the blank. (If it is written down somewhere, that's different, and we can talk about that there. Altho for my part I mostly ignore rules that get in the way of serving the reader.) Herostratus (talk) 15:57, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Template:Infobox person § Image says "The image in the infobox should be representative of the person who is the subject of the article". Also stated "When the subject of a biographical article has recently died, particularly those who have been publicly known for decades, editors may come to a consensus on the article's talk page regarding what image would best be suited for the infobox." Generally that is taken to mean what they look like now when living, and change to a life representative one after death. Anka is alive and still active. A current image is best to represent him now. They give the example of Elizabeth II whose article kept a recent image until after she died. Geraldo Perez (talk) 18:32, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

Concur with this. Moxy🍁 19:22, 2 March 2025 (UTC)

But that just says

Image: The image in the infobox should be representative of the person who is the subject of the article. For some historical figures, particularly those born in the 18th century or before, this image is often a painting or other artistic depiction of the individual (see George Washington). Persons born in the 20th century onward, such as Barack Obama, are most often represented by a photograph of the individual. When the subject of a biographical article has recently died, particularly those who have been publicly known for decades, editors may come to a consensus on the article's talk page regarding what image would best be suited for the infobox. An example of such a discussion can be found in the talk page archives for Elizabeth II (section Infobox photograph for after her death); in this instance, the 2015 photograph of Elizabeth II that was present in the article's infobox when discussions began was eventually replaced with a photograph of her taken in 1958.

I'm not seeing how any of that is on-topic for this thread? There's kinda-sorta an implication, if you squint, in "When the subject of a biographical article has recently died, particularly those who have been publicly known for decades, editors may come to a consensus on the article's talk page regarding what image would best be suited for the infobox." Kinda-sorta implies what you're saying, or it could be the opposite (show the person in her prime, but when she dies show the last free picture of her). Some people wrote this years ago but it's not cast in stone, and if you have to kind of squint to pick up an implication of something, is that really sufficient reason to make a choice that (IMO, and haven't been refuted yet) is not best for the reader? Herostratus (talk) 01:38, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

That is what is in the instructions for the infobox image. That leads to the common practice of having fairly recent images for living people when we can get a free-use one. Anka is 83 years old so readers expect an image of an 83 year old man to show what he currently looks like. The judgment of what would be a better image based on past fame is a discussion generally held after a person has died. If a consensus can be formed to change that general practice for this article, fine. I'll just !vote oppose for reasons I have already stated. Geraldo Perez (talk) 02:20, 3 March 2025 (UTC)

OK. Fair enough. Herostratus (talk) 21:41, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

The microphone in the main picture looks like an animation and the face looks like smoothed via AI, but no AI source is cited with the image. Not sure how to revert the image to its original. Little nitch (talk) 05:16, 7 March 2026 (UTC)

The Source page says it's been enhanced perhaps we should look for another image? Moxy🍁 05:18, 7 March 2026 (UTC)