Talk:Philadelphia (Amman)

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@Zero0000: @Huldra: @Onceinawhile: If you have any feedback, sorry but I don't know who else would be remotely interested to ping here and in similar articles for their valuable perspective. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:29, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cielquiparle talk 18:39, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

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8th century AD depiction of Philadelphia
8th century AD depiction of Philadelphia
Created by Makeandtoss (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 51 past nominations.

Makeandtoss (talk) 17:35, 22 March 2025 (UTC).

  • Interesting old city with a cute name, on fine sources, no copyvio obvious. I like the hook idea, but think it would be quirkier if not sooo explicit about Amman, capital of Jordan. Amman and Jordan should not be linked, per WP:OVERLINK, - that goes for the article as well. Can we perhaps say in a hook simply that it was Amman before and after? - The image is licensed, but doesn't depict a city (just one church) and remains rater abstract in that size. The caption should not duplicate the hook, - enough to say what it shows. Do you have another pic idea? - In the article, can you explain the "nickname" thingy? Please remove all items in the "see also" that are already linked, and see if anything left is worth the space. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:16, 25 March 2025 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: I have addressed your feedback. As for the hook, we can go for an extremely quirky
ALT1: ... that Amman was renamed Philadelphia (depicted) around 255 BC by a Greek ruler who earned the nickname Philadelphus for having married his sister?
The image was part of a mosaic that depicting the city by showing a church, so it is valid, and there are no good alternatives unfortunately. I think it would be a good match with this alt. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:20, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
ALT2: ... that Amman was renamed Philadelphia (depicted) around 255 BC by a Greek ruler?
I like ALT1, better than the original, and formatted it a bit, to make it ready to picked by a promoter. I also made a shortened version, because - my experience - hooks these days may not have more than one thought ;) - I'm afraid the image might not be taken at all, - that's my concern. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:03, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: The shorter the better indeed; so here is ALT3 with four less words:
ALT3: ... that Amman was renamed Philadelphia (depicted) around 255 BC by a Greek ruler nicknamed Philadelphus for marrying his sister?
Given the lack of good alternatives, I think the picture could be pushed for, given the good quality of the article. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:02, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
ALT3 prefered. Or should it be "for having married"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:08, 26 March 2025 (UTC)
@Gerda Arendt: Both grammatically correct, I think, so let's stay with the shorter version. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:28, 26 March 2025 (UTC)

Temple not to be called "of Hercules". Why?

ASOR, who has both excavated and restored the acropolis temple, insist on calling it the Great Temple and explicitly states that the name "Temple of Hercules" is incorrect. Their website (here) does not, however, explain why. I can think of several possibilities:

  • they are not sure it is dedicated to Hercules because the remaining 3 fingers + an elbow cannot be attributed with certainty to the demigod
  • they think it might be dedicated to a syncretic deity, not clearly identical with Hercules
  • ... to several deities, Hercules just being one among them (+ his mother?)

Does anyone know more? Arminden (talk) 18:02, 2 May 2025 (UTC)

I checked out the ASOR page bibliography (3 titles). Russell, Kenneth W. (1991). "Excavating and Rebuilding the Temple of Hercules", ACOR Newsletter 5, pp. 1–5 has on pp. 2-3 quite clear info on the architrave inscription showing without anyy possibility of a doubt that this was a Herakleion, a temple of Hercules.
However, in the 2 other titles, published AFTER the 1991 newsletter article and written together by the main excavators, they still insist on using the term "Great Temple of Amman" in the title (content not accessible from ACOR page):
  • Kanellopoulos, Chrysanthos (1994). The Great Temple of Amman: The Architecture. Amman: ACOR.
  • Koutsoukou, Anthi, Kenneth W. Russell, Mohammad Najjar, and Ahmed Momani (1997). The Great Temple of Amman: The Excavations. Amman: ACOR.
Why? Inertia? Material written before 1991, in spite of being publ. in 1994 & 1997? I cannot imagine any new doubts coming up after the 1991 discovery of the additional inscription fragment! All the other hints from other sources (see p. 3) are very clearly pointing in the exact same direction.
There are indeed doubts on whether we're not dealing here with an interpretatio graeca, recasting the Ammonite god Milcom into Herakles/Hercules. Older cultic features & artifacts underneath the 2nd c. CE temple might also indicate that. However, this does not change the Roman-period dedication to Hercules. I found one non-RS mention of the fact that one of the excavators (w/o mention of which expedition he belonged to) thought it to be a temple of Astarte; this looks very much like an anachronism to me.
I hate to go back on the changes I've made in one dozen or so articles, but it looks like the only correct thing to do. And the ACOR web page was so categorical! Arminden (talk) 19:18, 2 May 2025 (UTC)
Done, I believe. Arminden (talk) 01:54, 3 May 2025 (UTC)
Per WP's guidelines, we follow the common name, which is the temple of Hercules. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:28, 4 May 2025 (UTC)

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