Talk:President of Georgia

@Uzenaes, Szekere07, PeterWikiSK, Labrang, PLATEL, Dhlkjigyuvhjbiygh, and Quinnnnnby: To bypass the WP:EDITWAR that has been going on today, please give arguments for why the infobox should either:

• option neither - have no photo; or
• option both - have both photos; or
• option K - have Mikheil Kavelashvili's photo; or
• option Z - have Salome Zourabichvili's photo.

Boud (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Either neither or both - As of 29 Dec 2024, the presidency of Georgia is disputed, with no clear consensus (per currently used sources) among either Georgian political groups, Georgian constitutional experts, or international constitutional experts or political scientists or governments from around the world. Neither and both are both (currently) WP:NPOV. Boud (talk) 14:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Kavelashvili was elected through a legit constitutional procedure, and was sworn in on this day. Zourabichvili said she would "not leave the palace" but she left nevertheless, paving the way for Kavelashvili to assume the presidency. I think we should put his picture, therefore Option K. We can then add a note saying that the opposition disputes his election, although it is already mentioned in the article. Szekere07 (talk) 14:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Option K. Kavelashvili took the oath today, and at about the same time Zurabishvili left the presidential palace. Of course, we can argue about the legitimacy or illegitimacy of these elections (although personally I do not want to take part in this debate), but Zurabishvili does not currently have power in Georgia, although she has great support among opposition supporters and among some foreign countries. I can compare this situation with 2020 Belarus, when the protest movement and some countries of the world recognized Tikhanovskaya as president, but Lukashenko remained the only person with power in the country. I think the right option would be to leave Kavelashvili only, but add a note that his legitimacy is disputed by the Georgian opposition and some international states that recognize Zurabishvili as president. I also support equal representation of Kavelashvili and Zurabishvili in infobox if Zurabishvili creates an alternative government that is not a government in exile, which would lead to dual power on Georgian territory.  PLATEL  (talk) 14:11, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Although Zourabichvili initially said that she would stay in Orbeliani Palace, and later changed her mind, the political power connotations of leaving it are not the same as if a leader physically leaves a well-established leadership residence such as 10 Downing Street or the US White House. Zourabichvili was the first president to stay in Orbeliani Palace instead of Avlabari Presidential Residence.^[2] Boud (talk) 15:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  Agree with Boud. President can stay in Orbeliani but doesn't actually live there as primary residence. Zourabichvili had her own house this whole time. In any case she stated Orbeliani is just a building and she remains legitimate president with center elsewhere.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 09:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Depends (though generally support neither or K). I am of the view it would depend on is put as the president in the text; if both, then it should be neither; if Kavelashvili, with '(disputed)' or a note or whatever, then it should be K. In the longer-term, the likely situation is that Kavelashvili will act as president though his legitimacy will still remain contested, so I think whatever happens it is important to keep the disputed bracket and potentially a note with sources explaining the opposition forces' position. Quinby (talk) 14:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• Regardless whether Kavelashvili was 'legitimately' selected through the procedures as Szekere argues (I think there is a legal argument from constitutionalists the correct procedures were not followed, making the process at least in violation with the law - on top of the disputed appropriation of the allocation of local representatives to GD in the electoral college) - he is de facto the president holding the office. Whether we like it or not, whether it is disputed or not. Foreign (non-)recognition is not going to change that either. So - that would mean I'd say K. Disgruntingly. Labrang (talk) 14:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)
• More important: we NEED a BETTER photo!!!! These two photos [or actually screenshots!] are terrible!!!! Labrang (talk) 14:54, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

  I’d also say k, however, until a decent picture is found it’s better to have nothing at all neither Zlad! (talk) 15:57, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Its unfair saying "Foreign (non-)recognition" won't change fact of Kavelashvili presidency. There is widespread non-recognition within Georgia as well. Regardless where is the rule that says this page must have a photo of anyone? Why can't it just remain presidential standard like it is now?--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 14:28, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Without photo is fine for me as well. I am not a hard nutshell. Labrang (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Both - Wikipedia should not choose sides with disputes in nations, and joining in by putting only one image or the other is not helpful. This has been done before and there even is a template for several images in an infobox. There is a better photo needed of Kavelashvili but there should not be a biased selection of one instead of the other. Especially this is important while editors are edit warring on other articles to remove tags that are showing the office is disputed. It is only right to show that it is disputed with either both or neither, and it should include both names as a disputed office. CIN I&II (talk) 18:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Option K per PLATEL. I would add that regardless of whether the process to elect him was legitimate, Kavelashvili was today sworn in as president. We regard presidents who seize power in coups as presidents even when they are not duly elected. Kavelashvili is the president of the country starting today and should be listed in the infobox. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 22:30, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

• Option neither: The holder of the presidency is clearly disputed, so it would be wrong to put in a photo of either. Both would have a weird implication of power being divided. I think neither is the best and the status quo should be kept.

CrazyPredictor (talk) 00:49, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Option Z is preferred by me since there is many evidence of election fraud and the fact that parliament that elected Kavelashvili was convened by breaking the constitution without invitation of the president (This is not something I'm saying but what constitutional experts said, source is already in article). Option neither is also acceptable since some people feel strongly against having only one person shown.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 09:31, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

How Kavelashvili became the president of Georgia is a completely differerent question. Unless there is some doubt that he is currently the only one performing the functions of the president, his picture should be the only one in the info box. Heptor (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Of course theres "some doubt" Kavelashvili is the only one performing the functions of president. Zourabichvili literally setting up presidents office, physical office, right now and will announce soon she told media. In coming weeks we will probably see official visits by Zourabichvili abroad where she will be given official welcome and that can be cited also here.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 16:20, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Politicians that lost elections can get all kind of ideas. It should however not be reflected in Wikipedia articles. Virgilius87 (talk) 17:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@LeontinaVarlamonva: Does the goverment pay for this office, or does she pay for it herself? Heptor (talk) 12:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option K. Per arguments made by Selfie City, Szekere07, and Labrang. Nivzaq (talk) 11:33, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• Option K Salome Zourabichvili is not president of Georgia anymore. Until 29 December, there could have been the benefit of doubt awarded to her claim, because she was still in office and saying that she would not leave the presidential palace, but on 29 December she just left the palace voluntarily and vacated it to Kavelashvili. If she is president, why exactly did she leave her palace and vacate it to the "illegitimate president"? Moreover, she can not be considered as president because she was only elected for the term of 6 years in 2018. Her term expired in 2024 and she was never re-elected by anyone. So even if we assume that she is "legitimate", we can only claim that she is "acting president" and nothing more, because she has no legitimacy to be a full-fledged president anymore. But she can not even be considered as "acting president" because based on what did she assume this position? There is no law or constitutional provision which grants her this power by saying that "former president can assume the role of acting president if the elections were rigged" or something like that. So, she is only claiming to be a "legitimate president" out of thin air. But most importantly, how can she be considered still a president when she exercises no authority of president? Right now (since 29 December) she has totally 0 power. She did not set up alternative administration which would have challenged the Kavelashvili administration in any way.

Even when the opposition disputes the presidency and alleges that the elections were rigged, in cases of Belarus and Venezuela for example, those actually in power, Lukashenko and Maduro are mentioned as presidents on President of Belarus and President of Venezuela pages and their pictures are provided. There are notes on both pages saying that a number of foreign countries and opposition figures don't recognize Lukashenko and Maduro as presidents. This is the best outcome for this page too and would be in line with Wikipedia standarts. However, none of this situation is similar to Georgian one, because both in Belarus and Venezuela the opposition at least tried to create an alternative administration, which would have at least somehow substantiated the seriousness of their claims, but not in Georgia. What is the guarantee that in one year Zourabichvili will not be in Paris working on some French diplomatic mission and everone would still remember her claims of being the "only legitimate president of Georgia"? Rutdam (talk) 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option K. There are many other cases where the integrity of elections has been disputed, and power can shift through completely different means than a plebiscite. Heptor (talk) 21:36, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: Just note/reminder that "consensus" is not just counting hands. If 6 people out of 10 have drastic views that doesn't mean it can completely erase valid points made by others. Number of users have flexible views as shown above and it should all be evaluated to reach some ground.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 15:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• K: Zourabichvili has no presidential powers and is effectively a regular citizen, despite her claims and attempted foreign interference on the matter. Obviously the dispute should be noted, but the photo should depict only the person with the actual power. I mostly agree with Rutdam, except "acting president" wouldn't even be appropriate as again she has no power. eduardog3000 (talk) 00:42, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

"attempted foreign interference"...I think we heard this somewhere before. It is bit funny, no?

More to point, what is "actual power"? Kavelashvili has no "actual power". According to media report, he didn't even want to be president but was chosen by Bidzina Ivanishvili who told him he had to do it. He didn't even know until he was surprised when he was summoned by Ivanishvili. So seems Kavelashvili has very little power if anything. He cant even go outside fearing people, while Zourabichvili walks freely among thousands her supporters.--LeontinaVarlamonva (talk) 09:47, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Everyone can walk outside, that's not the power of the presidency. What presidential powers does Zourabichvili currently hold? eduardog3000 (talk) 03:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I think there is no presidency in Georgia anymore. The website has been shut down since 29 December - seemingly to wipe out the entire history of the Zurabishvili-presidency, its media archive etc. Do we already have a new license free photo of the soccer-not-wannabe-president? Because, really... what is this, a banana republic? Oh wait, that's exactly what GD has set out to make of Georgia. A place of scorn and spite, not of "pride and dignity". Labrang (talk) 16:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry for the rant, but couldn't resist. Labrang (talk) 16:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

@Labrang: I don't know if it helps, but Georgia is not alone in becoming a place of those things you mentioned Heptor (talk) 12:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I've been looking at articles of presidents and here's what I noticed:

• President of Venezuela. Nicolás Maduro is listed as president, with just a note that several countries have questioned his victory.
• President of Belarus. Alexander Lukashenko is listed as president, with a similar note to that of Maduro.

I believe we need consistency. Maybe we should revisit the above articles of those presidents who have internationally recognized alternatives. (Am I missing any?) But I don't see why Georgia should be treated differently from these countries, considering the previous president left office and the new president took the oath of office in the de facto seat of government. I believe we can choose either Option K or Option Both, but we must apply the same standard to Venezuela and Belarus as well. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 01:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Option K per eduardog3000. According to any governmental body holding any actual power over the country, Kavelashvili is a president, while Zourabichvili is no longer one since 29 December 2024. Whether this is fair and whether any election relevant for that matter was fair and legitimate, is besides the point, only what is matters, not what ought to be. Maybe a footnote should be added to present the notable opposing claims (e.g. by some countries, opposition parties and Zourabichvili herself). Niokog (talk) 12:18, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

It is not disputed into 2025 because 1. she left the presidential palace on time, 2. she has no authority on anything (even a regime in exile), 3. NO ONE has recognized her as the alleged "legitimate prez" (unlike for guado in venezuela last time or even now) despite mere criticisms, 4. With all that, this turns into OR on wiki's part. Sportsnut24 (talk) 08:04, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

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Hello, I would like to propose change of the current infobox to a version in accordance with the consensus previously discussed on this talk page. Thank you

Quick facts President of Georgia საქართველოს პრეზიდენტი, Type ...

President of Georgia საქართველოს პრეზიდენტი
Presidential standard
Incumbent Mikheil Kavelashvili[a] since 29 December 2024
Office of the President of Georgia
Type	Head of state Commander-in-chief
Residence	Orbeliani Palace (since Nov 2018[2])
Appointer	Electoral college
Term length	Five years, renewable once
Constituting instrument	Constitution of Georgia (1995)
Inaugural holder	Zviad Gamsakhurdia
Formation	14 April 1991 (35 years ago) (1991-04-14)
Deputy	Chairperson of the Parliament
Salary	13,000 GEL (€4,500) per month[3]
Website	Official website

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Tahomaru (talk) 02:04, 15 February 2025 (UTC)

• Supporting this request. Heptor (talk) 18:59, 17 February 2025 (UTC)
• Deactivating as protection has expired. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:25, 1 March 2025 (UTC)