I just changed the therm "was" to "is" in the openign sentence of "Ra (;[1] Ancient Egyptian: rꜥ; also transliterated rꜥw, pronounced [ˈɾiːʕuw] ⓘ; cuneiform: 𒊑𒀀 ri-a or 𒊑𒅀ri-ia;[2] Phoenician: 𐤓𐤏,[3] romanized: rʿ) or Re (Coptic: ⲣⲏ, romanized: Rē) was the ancient Egyptian deity of the Sun.
" in accordance with MOS:TENSE, and was reverted by PharaohCrab with the rationale of it is till a matter of debate whether egyptian god should be in the past or present tense but the rest of this article is in past tense so it should stay like that
. This doesn't seem to be the case. There is no exemption in MOS:TENSE for Egyptian Gods, and all the following are in the present tense as expected, casting doubt on the rationale:
Now in the interests of transparency, I'll acknowledge that there are also many Egyptian God articles written in the past tense, but I suppose my question is - "Why?" What makes the Egyptian God trump MOS:TENSE, and where is the debate about it?
Out of curiosity, I had a quick look at a few of the Hindu Gods - they seem to adhere to MOS:TENSE and be in the current tense as well:
The big three:
And a few of the more well known others:
I can't see any reason for Egyptian Gods to be exempt from MOS:TENSE. Chaheel Riens (talk) 16:42, 14 November 2025 (UTC) Chaheel Riens (talk) 16:42, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
- The reason it would be different is because while the Hindu gods are still worshiped by many people while the Egyptians gods are not, sure there is Kemetism but it is a modern and niche Neo-pagan movement and is very different from the old Egyptian religion. I'm not saying they need to be in present tense but I am saying that editors have different options on this and some (including me) switch between them regularly. I also would like to say that I have brought up this topic before here but the only comment was from A. Parrot who also said that he flips between the two. PharaohCrab speak𓀁 works𓀨 16:59, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
- Yes, Hinduism is obviously a different case. Its deities have millions of living and practicing adherents. Egyptian religion went extinct 1500 years ago, and its deities ceased to be worshipped. Kemetist communities have revived a selection of ancient Egyptian practices, but only a selection, and their communities are so small and under-studied that it's rarely feasible to even mention them in an article on an individual deity.
- At one time I thought deities should still be referred to in the present tense, on the grounds that if you believe in these deities, then they are still operative in the present day, and if you do not, then they can be treated as fictional and hence written about in the manner of a plot summary for a work of fiction. But in practice, I found it difficult to write that way. In writing about an ancient deity, references to an ancient practice usually have to be written in the past tense, but such references will frequently end up mixed with descriptions what deities were believed to do. It's very hard to be systematic. A. Parrot (talk) 17:00, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
- I'm still not convinced, especially with the implication that it's hard to refer to them in the present tense. Whether a religion is still practised has no bearing on the wealth of literature and study that has covered the Egyptian pantheon, and they all agree that Ra is a God, ergo the lede should describe him in the present tense. I'm going to bring this up on the MOS talk page. Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:16, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know if that's necessary. I don't insist on using past tense, but I do think we have to look at the complexities here.
- An article on a deity will include several types of statements:
- Actions in myth (e.g., "Ra sends/sent his Eye to punish humanity")
- Actions deities take within the world ("Ra sails/sailed his barque through the sky")
- Specific verbiage used in ancient texts ("Ra is/was called 'far strider who came forth from Heliopolis'")
- Imagery in ancient artwork ("Ra is/was portrayed as a falcon-headed man with the sun-disk on his head")
- Acts of worship by ancient people ("Ra is/was worshipped in the form of the Mnevis bull")
- The first category is commonly rendered in present tense because mythic narratives can be treated in the same way as a plot summary. The last category is pretty clearly past tense, as these acts of worship do not take place anymore. The others are ambiguous. Both texts and artworks can be talked about in the present tense because those texts and artwork survive to the present, but they can also be in past tense because those texts and artworks were created in ancient times and are only a sample of what existed in the past (particularly for texts, where the same phrases were presumably often used in speech). I'd like to figure out some coherent way of handling these categories.
- I note that GAs on other ancient deities, like Athena, do use "is" in the lead sentence, but they don't seem to treat these categories of statements with consistent tenses. A. Parrot (talk) 17:24, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
- I've already raised it, but this is overcomplicating the concept of MOS:TENSE. The article should always start with the present tense, because Ra is an Egyptian God - that hasn't, nor is it likely to change. The rest of the article depends on individual cases and context. Most will be in the past tense because Ra (and by extension all Egyptian Gods) are ancient history, so the text refers to past actions and descriptions.
Actions in myth (e.g., "Ra sends/sent his Eye to punish humanity")
- unless he's doing that right now, it's past tense.Specific verbiage used in ancient texts ("Ra is/was called 'far strider who came forth from Heliopolis'")
- the clue is "ancient texts". This is clearly past tense if explicitly mentioned when referring to the ancient texts.
- Chaheel Riens (talk) 17:31, 14 November 2025 (UTC)
- If the ancient texts still exist, I think the present tense is appropriate. The complaint tablet to Ea-nāṣir, for example, "details that Ea-nāṣir travelled to Dilmun to buy copper". We use present tense to describe what extant documents say, so we should say that "Ra is called the 'far strider who came forth from Heliopolis' in ancient texts". pburka (talk) 22:41, 15 November 2025 (UTC)
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