Talk:Rupert Sheldrake

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After the current text:

Reviewing the book, Susan Blackmore criticised Sheldrake for comparing the 12 tests of random duration—which were all less than an hour long—to the initial tests where the dog may have been responding to patterns in the owner's journeys. Blackmore interpreted the results of the randomised tests as starting with a period where the dog "settles down and does not bother to go to the window," and then showing that the longer the owner was away, the more the dog went to look.^[1]

Add the following text right after:

In response to Susan Blackmore's critique, Rupert Sheldrake re-examined his twelve experiments. He found the percentage of time Jaytee spent by the window in the main period of Pam's absence was lower when the first hour was exluded than when it was included. Sheldrake noted, "Taking Blackmore's objection into account strengthens rather than weakens the evidence for Jaytee knowing when his owner was coming home, and increases the statistical significance of the comparison."^[2]

I believe I got the reference formatting correct although I'm not sure if '.' are allowed in the 'volume' field. Let me know. Jmancthree (talk) 04:16, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done. — Antrotherkus ^{Talk to me!} 19:03, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted it as WP:UNDUE and soapboxing. I'm not sure what would be due without a better reference, nor should Wikipedia's voice be used for Sheldrake's claims. --Hipal (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

May I ask why would this be undue and soapboxing? Also, regarding the quote, there is specific guidance in the fringe theories guideline,

Quotes that are controversial or potentially misleading need to be properly contextualized to avoid unintentional endorsement or deprecation. What is more, just because a quote is accurate and verifiably attributed to a particular source does not mean that the quote must necessarily be included in an article. The sourced contribution must simply aid in the verifiable and neutral presentation of the subject.

Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The only reference is him. --Hipal (talk) 03:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the info is properly contextualized. It is using neutral language in the form "he found" not "it was proven". Also, when he talks about statements of facts language like, "the objection strenghtens rather than weakens", he is quoting himself in a quote. Therefore, if it is a quote I think it is probably ok. Now if you still object to the statements of facts, maybe as a compromise it could be made a more neutral contextualized paraphrase. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 05:58, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Given that the text before that criticizes Sheldrake's findings: Reviewing the book, Susan Blackmore criticised Sheldrake for comparing the 12 tests of random duration—which were all less than an hour long—to the initial tests where the dog may have been responding to patterns in the owner's journeys. Blackmore interpreted the results of the randomised tests as starting with a period where the dog "settles down and does not bother to go to the window," and then showing that the longer the owner was away, the more the dog went to look., it is only fair that Sheldrake's rebuttal should be provided, in a neutral fashion, otherwise this is just another way for Wikipedia editors to further debunk Sheldrake and deny him redress. Esowteric + Talk + Breadcrumbs 09:30, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Sounds like WP:FALSEBALANCE. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Definitely FALSEBALANCE.

he found: No. That's a claim he's making in his defense, with no independent verification. --Hipal (talk) 17:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The current Susan Blackmore paragraph is confused text. Worse:

Blackmore interpreted the results of the randomised tests as starting with a period where the dog "settles down and does not bother to go to the window," and then showing that the longer the owner was away, the more the dog went to look.

I don't blame the original writer of this paragraph for misunderstanding what Susan said in the article, as it's of very poor quality, but Susan did not 'interpret the results' and she did not 'show that the longer the owner was away, the more the dog went to look'. The article is speculation from Blackmore for how these results could have been produced due to what she thinks might've been design problems. A reader would be left with the impression that Susan has actually done a statistical analysis on the data and has found that the significant result vanishes when her critique is accounted for. Sheldrake's published rebuttal demonstrates this speculative theory is not the cause of the result and leads to a more significant p-value when accounted for.

I appreciate Sheldrake's rebuttal is unlikely to be merged into the article for 'reasons', but I'd like to atleast fix Susan Blackmore being misrepresented. Here's what I'd change it to (and as I don't have write permissions, you'll have to be the one to merge it in):

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Reviewing the book, Susan Blackmore speculated that the significant result might be coming from a problematic experimental design. She proposed that: 1) Because every test was longer than one hour, and if, 2) Jaytee's animal behavior was to settle down for the first hour its owner was away, then, 3) This could explain why it appears Jaytee is anticipating Pam's return as, in the data, Jaytee would always be resting the first hour and moving the remainder of the time.^{[1][unbalanced opinion?]}

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This text makes it clear Susan is merely proposing what could be a 'solution' for the problem, instead of something based on an actual analysis: as the current text reads. Of course her proposition doesn't actually vanish the significant result, but that's besides the point. Jmancthree (talk) 00:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I would say it is not about redress at all but about providing a proper balance to the article, which after all is a bio of Sheldrake himself. Only adding info about negative criticism of others against Sheldrake or his theories without including what Sheldrake said about it would certainly be unencyclopedic and more like a biased forum against Sheldrake. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 20:51, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Again, that's false balance. Please review the policy. --Hipal (talk) 21:09, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Per FALSEBALANCE,

Wikipedia policy does not state or imply that every minority view, fringe theory, or extraordinary claim needs to be presented along with commonly accepted mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity.

I read this as it is stated, that it does not need to be presented along mainstream scholarship as if they were of equal validity. This means not to give the fringe theory equal validity as the mainstream scholarship, it does not preclude inclusion of fringe theory material. The policy does not state, it does not need to be presented along mainstream scholarship, as if they were of equal validity. Notice the comma that is not in the actual policy. This has a different meaning than the current policy, namely, it implies that including fringe theory material would provide for their equal validity with mainstream scholarship, which is not necessarily the case.

Therefore, the quote of the fringe theory policy that I quoted in a previous reply applies. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 22:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

The article already includes the fringe theory material when it describes what the book is about. It then summarizes the criticism. That is where we ought to stop, we don't need and should not have an additional layer of response to the response, that is when the fringe position gets too much weight. MrOllie (talk) 00:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I only pointed out that FALSEBALANCE doesn't preclude the inclusion of the material at hand. But certainly whether to include it or not is a matter of consensus. Sincerely, Thinker78 (talk) 01:30, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

FALSEBALANCE means that it is only fair that Sheldrake's rebuttal should be provided, in a neutral fashion does not fly. --Hob Gadling (talk) 07:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Not having better sources for the material is what precludes the inclusion.

As far as consensus is concerned, let's avoid any WP:CONLOCAL problems. --Hipal (talk) 17:12, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

The article in the German Wikipedia appears to give a more neutral account of this scientist and his work. Are Wikipedias in other languages counted as WP: RS by the English Wikipedia? YTKJ (talk) 21:05, 1 July 2025 (UTC)

No, see WP:RSPWP. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:09, 1 July 2025 (UTC)