Talk:Shapira Scroll

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Missing: section on physical description & content of the text(s)

@GordonGlottal, 175.37.202.190, Amplifysound, WindSandAndStars, Yoninah, LacrimosaDiesIlla, and Onceinawhile:

And it's essential! A separate, clear section on what the strips look(ed) like, are likely to be, and contain. This goes to the core of the topic, and is the very object of the article. As of now, the article is just a "whodunnit", a story of what happened (and even that without mentioning the 5 years they were kept in a safe before being reassessed and brought to Europe). Soon enough, only few people will care strictly about the detective story, and wish to know WHAT the strips actually WERE, as objects and the possible readings of the text(s).

  1. Are the strips part of ONE scroll/manuscript? How many of the strips were sewn together, and how many were "loose"? Did the loose ones have stitch marks, or is there any other reason to believe that all the strips constituted one single scroll (physical appearance first, then text analysis)? => use singular or plural (scrol/scrolls, Ms/Mss)
  2. It has been assessed that they were written by two hands. Is that the last position of current scholarship? How do they combine, two hands within individual strips, or each on separate ones? Does this distinction correlate to the content of the respective strips?
  3. More systematic presentation of the content of the text(s).

Of course, this all with all the needed caveats, counter-theories etc., but the user needs to quickly understand what it's all about, not just "old stuff with some religious writing on it that doesn't fit what's printed in my Bible back home." As always, first clarify the WHAT, and only then the story & possible interpretations. Nobody really has the patience to read the whole article the way it's written now. If one does have the patience and curiosity, they'd go to the more systematic, online published sources. Wiki at its best has the advantage of giving a quick, well summarised essence. Here it doesn't. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 11:41, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

No one knows what happened in that five years, there's nothing to say. Shapira decided to try again, that's all. There is some of this to do -- it's a massive project tho - but honestly there's not much of the internal evidence that's possible to explain in this manner, and as the consensus view of the field has always been that it's fake, not much point either except to study forgery. The original reports show at least two hands, probably more. None of the scroll really survives in a way to allow reanalysis of the handwriting, and much of it is completely gone in all forms. In terms of connection -- there's no overlap or conflict in what survives, and the pieces were all basically the same size/shape, that's why it was assumed to be one manuscript. Shapira talked about having two or three but it's not clear whether "the Shapira scroll" is one of them or all of them together, though he never presented any others. There must be translations that are now public domain -- Ginsburg's for example -- but I'm not sure the process for including them. If you think it's OK I can point you to one I think, but not worth my time to copy them out here by hand. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:37, 14 March 2021 (UTC)
@GordonGlottal: You didn't get my point.
  1. We have an article, that is a fact, and the user can't tell what it really is about, as definition & description are missing. Breaking the basic rule for an encyclopedic entry.
  2. Dershowitz & others strongly disagree with you, so by now claiming it's a sure fake is POV, not consensus anymore.
  3. There are lots of sources, Dershowitz only the latest.
I don't expect a long description for a start, but the basics: what did it consist of, why consider 15 strips as one scroll, and the content of more than just the famous 11th commandment. In short, not strewn among the pro & con arguments. Fair enough, don't you think?
Nothing happened in the first 5 years, but they must be mentioned, as that fact has been used as an argument for showing that not even Shapira was sure of the strips' authenticity (or that he was of their fake origin), or that he waited for the "Moabite" scandal to subside before bringing the strips onto the market. And mind you: if it hadn't been for the waves raised by Dershowitz, we wouldn't be discussing it here & now. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 10:15, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Arminden, (1) No, what I meant is no one knows the answers to these questions, and no one can find out because the scroll is gone. What is known is 1. the partial text, which no one has bothered analyzing un-emended in more than a century. and 2. the physical description, which is already in the article. I guess we could put in the dimensions? (2) is completely wrong, it has always been and remains an extremely fringe view, despite the fact that 2 people have argued it in the last 60 years, and no one has ever applied it to other analysis. Final point is correct in that there have been 2 rises in interest, one when Mansoor/Teicher tried to reopen and now, both given major NYT treatments. But encyclopedias are not guided by magazine features. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:31, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
I should also add that some (e.g. Rabinowicz) suggest that Shapira revised the text in those years, after all no one actually saw it until 1883. There is some evidence to suggest this, if you think Shapira himself forged them, because the orthography is a little closer to the Siloam inscription, found in 1880, than it is to anything already found in 1878. GordonGlottal (talk) 01:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

notes

Arminden If you read the section below you'll see that, while Ginsburg took the longest (3 weeks) to issue a finding, everyone else denounced it immediately. By the time it reached the UK in the first place, Schlottman, Delitzch, Strack, Lepsius, Sachau, Schrader, Dillmann, Erman, Steinschneider, Guthe, Meyer, Noldeke, and Kautsch had already decided it was fake (though Guthe and Meyer wouldn't publish for another week). Fright (internally) and Neubauer published against in the first week of the exhibition, and Conder was known to think it fake from before the British Museum ever saw it. Even to British Museum visitors who wanted to see it, it was known to be suspicious -- Ginsburg was careful to note in his statements that he hadn't decided yet, and when he did reports said he'd been hinting for a while. Gladstone spent his visit interrogating Shapira. Ganneau denounced it as soon as he saw it, though by that point it had been exhibited for a while. In the entire history of it, the only one who apparently took any time was Ginsburg, who had a different responsibility as designated by the museum and was enjoying massive press attention.

And no one knows how Mason got it, as indeed no one knew in the nineteenth century. It's not true to say he was the "actual purchaser." The lede is extremely lopsided right now and includes uncited information not found below -- it is not the right place for historiography.

GordonGlottal (talk) 17:43, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

GordonGlottal hi. I read everything, including quite a bit aside from the WP article. Fact is, the German ambassador or whatever he was who came from Beirut found it to be authentic (who knows what he had studied), the British Museum put two strips on display (the British Museum, not a freak show in the Dodge City downtown saloon; the BM didn't exhibit every ole' funny fake, that's a postmodern thing to do), Gladstone was impressed and so were large masses of people, and Ginsburg did take a while. So a discrete "almost" is fully legitimate. I'm not pushing a theory, I have & support none, just stating a fact.
I have no idea who wrote about Mason, it wasn't me. Arminden (talk) 10:02, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
Arminden, Shapira claimed that Schroder thought it was legitimate when he got to the UK. He said the same thing about Guthe, which was quickly belied by Guthe's published analysis. He also said that Conder knew about them, which forced Conder to publicly refute him. I think "almost immediately" is fair for the UK scholars, who took a few days, but it's not true generally, the Germans had decided (after 90 minutes in Berlin or one night in Leipzig) weeks earlier. In any case, we shouldn't confuse taking time to publish for being unsure. Neubauer, for example, wrote that he had held it to be a forgery "from the very outset" and Clermont-Ganneau, whose decision is probably the most famous, or at worst second behind Ginsburg, said much the same. Ginsburg himself said "I was sure the first week of my examination that it was a forgery". Conder said "I had no hesitation in concluding that they were deliberate forgeries". Hope you'll forgive me re: not checking who made what changes. GordonGlottal (talk) 20:39, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
GordonGlottal So much back and forth for a tiny word of caution, "almost". You didn't address one thing: if everybody who mattered was so sure it's a forgery, did the British Museum, a very serious institution in whoever's book, go for a mega-cheat just for the sake of attracting more public attention? (I don't know if they charged entry.) It simply bugs me to read an unambiguous statement that everyone in the scholarly world knew from the get go these were fake, but the BM put up one of its most successful shows of the time anyway. I can easily imagine that many WP users would think the same. What's so aggravating to you about the "almost"? Are you on a crusade against reassessment? I'm certainly not on the counter-crusade. That's not something I care about. The logic of the presentation is. If you can figure out why the BM made the exhibit (free flow of information, "let ppl make up their own mind"? Pressure from biblical fundamentalists? Or simply "what if..."?), we can close the discussion based on facts. If not, I'll leave it up to you, it's not worth so much arguing. PS: I just found the BM Journal article by Reiner, where he quotes Ginsburg's letter to his daughter: "Though I was sure the first *week* of my examination that it was a forgery yet the extraordinary cleverness and skill displayed..." So not right away at all. Black on white. Even while showing off to his daughter, he admits it wasn't easy, that he almost went blind deciphering the ms, and that he would pay 200 pounds for it. Certainly not an "immediate rejection", now I see I had more of a point than I thought. Better drop it, please. And re. Mason, it really doesn't matter. Arminden (talk) 21:53, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
This is getting very silly. Ginsburg took by far the longest, in that he took less than a week. I won't engage with conspiracy theories about why they displayed it, which after-the-fact everyone in the UK, and especially Shapira, regretted. It certainly didn't do anyone except him any damage. I quoted Ginsburg, among others, in my comment. Not one of the German scholars took more than a day, nor did Neubauer/Clermont-Ganneau/Conder at minimum in the UK. "One of its most successful shows of all time" is an absurd exaggeration. To the extent that I have a "crusade" it is to prevent this page from being completely rewritten to reflect a WP:FRINGE magazine feature (or paper/monograph, if anyone here besides me has read them). Also I think you may have misunderstood something -- Ginsburg was designated by Bond to deal with the scroll, that's why Shapira blames him, there's no "British Museum" making an independent decision besides him. You can ask "why did Ginsburg continue to exhibit it for 2 weeks after he was sure it was a forgery" but not "how could Ginsburg be representative, the British Museum was still displaying it." To which Reiner answers, "Ginsburg obviously took great pride in his notoriety," but speculation etc. GordonGlottal (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

eleventh

Amplifysound Not having edited that part before, I don't think your version is quite right either? At first glance לא תשנא . את. אחך . בל[בבך] Do not hate your brother in your heart is in fact additional, it just combines 1+2 taam-ha-elyon-style (among other changes) so the number is the same. I thought "eleventh commandment" in quotes was OK. GordonGlottal (talk) 04:25, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

  • As you note, the number of commandments is structured as 10. The content is different, but it's not as if there's one settled list of "Ten Commandments" in the MT either! Dershowitz takes a very strong position on the matter (https://twitter.com/IdanDershowitz/status/1371182215330201614?s=20), but even if you think he's biased with regard to Shapira as a whole, I don't think it's reasonable to say there are 11 commandments in this text. If you did, you'd have to say there are ~18 commandments in the MT. Amplifysound (talk) 00:38, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
    Amplifysound, What I mean is, the basic form of the Shapira Decalogue is "the ten commandments" from the MT, somewhat altered, plus an additional line. Everyone knows the range of content implied by the phrase (well, except the ST), even if they don't agree on the breakdown. I don't think calling it "eleventh" implies anything false here. Dershowitz is definitely not the most Wiki-worthy resource here, but BTW he agrees. Anyway who cares, I'll try some new language. He is right about the photograph thing in that thread, gonna fix it. "God, thy God" comes straight from Gisnburg. I don't agree with him on Elohim Elohekhah, it's a slight jump to assume Elohism in the scroll (even if you think it's genuine) and no one else has done so to my knowledge, plus it confuses the etymological connection for no reason. I'm going to try "God, your god". GordonGlottal (talk) 22:24, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
One additional point on the last: The redundancy comes up a fair amount in commentary, don't want to disguise it. GordonGlottal (talk) 14:49, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
Hmm but Delitzch says "Elohim bein Gott" GordonGlottal (talk) 22:59, 19 March 2021 (UTC)

To do

Still necessary on this page IMO: The debate over whether Shapira forged them himself. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Amplifysound Which exactly are consistent? This hasn't been covered except by Rabinowicz and Goshen-Gottstein but I don't think you're right that it's subjective. (1) makes the unique claim of a tomb, (2) makes the unique claims that Selim was involved and that they were offered and left for him at the shop, (3) makes the unique claims that they first met at the Sheik's house and that they were hidden in bundles of rugs, (4) makes the unique claims that they were thrown into fire and that they were acquired through an unnamed intermediary "who would sell his own mother-in-law", (5) makes the unique claim of a reward offered, (6) makes the unique claims that a mummy was found and they came from the same site as the Moabitica. Each is in conflict with all the others, even without discussing the conflicts that are 3-3 etc. instead of 1-5. GordonGlottal (talk) 11:40, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

  • These six "accounts" are from different sources, with different levels of detail, none of them claiming to be a perfect account of everything that happened down to the millisecond. Some of these are from Shapira's pen; some of these are later reports of what others say Shapira told them. Memory, hearsay, and other factors must be taken into account. For example, Re 1: A "tomb" could be an intentional construction, or it could be a cave with a body. Nothing about this contradicts the other accounts. 2: Selim is not unique; he seems to appear in 4 and 5, just to start. His presence is not contradictory with other stories. 3: Your claim that they "first" met at the Sheik's house does not seem supported; describing an important meeting at a house does not mean that the earlier meeting did not happen. 4: This does not claim it was thrown into the fire, it claims something *may* have been thrown into the fire. 5: A "reward" could be a a bounty advertised, or it could be a promise to buy an object. I don't see how this is contradictory with anything else. 6: I scanned this source and didn't find anything about a mummy -- I'm sure I'm missing what you're referring to, but what I read on that link was consistent with the other stories. Regardless, a partially-preserved body is certainly consistent with Dead Sea caves, and I don't see anywhere in the other sources that claim there wasn't a body found. A unique claim is not inherently contradictory with other reports that don't mention the unique claim. For example, if the following happened:

A) There were scrolls in a cave with a body

B) In the 1860s, some Arabs hid in a cave and found the material

C) A Sheik meets Shapira on other business and mentions that he knows other people who know about the strips

D) The following day there's a dinner in which Shapira presses for more information and makes clear that he wants to buy these manuscripts

E) After the Sheik told people he knew that Shapira wanted to buy them, a man from Adachaje approached Shapira's store and left some of the manuscripts

F) Later, the man dropped off the rest of the manuscripts.

Then nothing of that is contradictory with the six citations here. Honestly, it reads like you're intent on proving that this is a forgery, not analyzing the evidence dispassionately. I think the line "Shapira's account of the discovery of the scroll varied at times and the differences between them have been used[1] as evidence of forgery" is fair and reasonable - if it has any imbalance, it tilts irrationally toward the forgery thesis.

Big picture, I don't really understand why this article has these 6 extensive quotations. It's very odd, and it imbalances the article. For example, there's nothing in the article about the content of the material, other than the Ginsburg translation. Considering that the content of the text is consistently the subject of major publications about the material, that's a massive gap. Amplifysound (talk) 19:28, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Regarding "Still necessary on this page IMO: The debate over whether Shapira forged them himself. GordonGlottal (talk) 18:25, 24 March 2021 (UTC) " -- I think it probably makes sense to 1) have a whole section about the forgery history, it could even be the first section, 2) condense the "discovery" section into one single paragraph more or less laying out the A-F that I wrote above, with a note that Shapira told the story of the discovery at different times to different people in different ways, and that some people have used that as evidence that it's a forgery. Amplifysound (talk) 19:33, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Vandalism

Physical Appearance and Scriptio Continua

Fringeness

Sources

Leather of the Strips Claimed to be From Cut Off Torah Scroll Margins

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