Talk:Trumpet

Thought I should post here too. In this discussion I was proposing an organization for trumpet articles. In summary, it's a proposal to limit the scope of this article to the valved Western brass instrument, basically just bass trumpet through piccolo trumpet and all of the various keys. Slide trumpets, cornets, etc. could go into some article Trumpet family.

I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile to have separate articles like B-flat trumpet and C trumpet. The information in those articles would be mostly duplicates. I just worry that by trying to talk about all "trumpets" in one article it leads to an inability to generalize. Plus, some classification systems basically consider all brass instruments "trumpets". Ovinus (talk) 20:37, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

@Ovinus: Hi! I'm not sure if it's entirely equivalent but I've been involved with unpicking the Types of trombone article into its various constituent articles (so far cimbasso, contrabass, bass, alto, and soprano), so that we can most likely merge it back to a table or a "Types" section of the trombone article instead. There is a similar concern about the clarinet family article being largely a duplication of the "Extended family of clarinets" section of the clarinet article. — Jon (talk) 02:57, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Should the Range graphic at the top of the page show the SOUNDING range for a Bb trumpet as well as the written range, as is done on the piccolo page? When I first read the page, I assumed the range shown was the sounding range. I think other folk who aren't already trumpeters would also make the same mistake. Someone reading about the trumpet for the first time won't know it's a transposing instrument and check for a possible transposition (even if they know what a transposing instrument is). What is the purpose of showing the range at all? It is to show someone which (sounding) pitches an instrument can get to (which is interesting and important), or what top and bottom notes might be seen in a part (I'm not sure anyone really cares about this, except maybe musical typesetters)? I'd suggest always showing sounding ranges, as this is the most immediately useful information when reading about the instrument. And maybe not bother with written ranges at all at this point! But I guess that would need to be coordinated across multiple instrument pages and/or need an editorial discussion, which I suspect might be controversial ;-) The compromise is probably to do what's been done on the piccolo page and show both the sounding and written ranges where they differ. 90.202.97.45 (talk) 13:24, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

A couple of points. The article is not only about the Bb trumpet, so all of the sentences referring to "written" notes are accurate and clear. Also, the sentence about the lowest note with standard technique (a written F#) is not about the notation or the transposition. It's about the lowest note (on any kind of trumpet) playable without using the technique for pedal tones. - Special-T (talk) 19:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, not always - "written" has changed. Here's a quote from "Behind Bars" by Elaine Gould, page 260, which as I understand it is the modern Bible for new music typesetting: "Players are used to transposing for their instruments: consequently, parts are often written in C as a matter of course, even though the player may use a trumpet in Bb, or the smaller trumpets in D or Eb, etc. Since Bb is the universal instrument, when the range of the part is not exceptionally high or low, it is equally valid to write a part in C or Bb." I guess this primarily relates to contemporary scores, but it does mean that "written" doesn't necessarily mean transposed these days. I do agree that only a few decades ago this wasn't the case, and indeed Adler's "Study of Orchestration" (1982) suggests always writing transposed. But, there is now ambiguity here, which is normally resolved by looking at the accidentals relative the strings etc. I suspect this has mostly changed because of people working with synthesisers, or modern scoring packages, which mostly present trumpets at their sounding pitch (you press C on a synth to get a sounding C; you don't press the D key). Even Sibelius and suchlike allow transposing score to be turned on and off so you can transpose when exporting parts etc.

Sorry if I'm causing trouble - that wasn't my intent - this is a good article! But there are things in it which require you to already know about trumpet conventions before they can be read easily. Most people wanting to know the lowest note of the trumpet won't be trumpeters (who hopefully already know) and will want the actual sounding pitch. Yes, they are different on different trumpets - personally, I think that's interesting! The range on a Bb trumpet is different to the range of a C trumpet to my mind, and it would be nice to show that. Just for reference, Adler actually shows three ranges in score fragments: the range for a C trumpet, and then the written and sounding ranges for a Bb trumpet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.97.45 (talk) 19:29, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I notice that all my clarifications have all been reverted, even though I've provided references. Moderators might be interested - or not, I guess. I was just trying to improve a resource I was initially misled by. I give up - I've better things to do and I'll leave Wikipedia to sort it out. 90.202.97.45 (talk) 20:15, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

For what it's worth, this article has been annoying me for a long time and I'd like to basically rewrite it and get it re-nominated for WP:GA — Jon (talk) 02:26, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Trying to leave this alone... But just noticed the misleading stuff about odd harmonics. Where did that come from? The trumpet does not have a node at the lip end - there's a whole acoustic system there (mouthpiece and lips etc.)! [And I should add that the trumpet, unlike a clarinet, does not have a cylindrical bore.] It does not behave like a closed pipe. The statement "the instrument only naturally produces every other overtone of the harmonic series" is incorrect and confusing.

I would correct this, but I expect my changes would just get reverted.

If someone who won't get reverted wants to read up on the acoustics, I'd recommend "The Physics of Musical Instruments" by Fletcher and Rossing page 429 and on.

There are interesting things about trumpet tuning and a table could be good, although it's a big topic that might need its own page. In particular:

a) The natural harmonic series has partials that don't align with equal temperament, which can cause tuning issues depending on the key/instruments in use if not corrected, or just be unusable (e.g. the 7th harmonic).

b) The valves increase the length of the trumpet tubing, thus reducing its pitch, the valves on their own delivering approx 2, 1 or 3 semitones. However, when valves are combined, the lengths add, which is not quite the same as adding semitones (semitones go with log(1/length)). Various compromises are thus needed. Note that Bb minus 2+1+3=6 semitones takes us to the bottom of the range of a Bb trumpet, which is an E. Oh dear. I'd better stop. 90.202.97.45 (talk) 16:03, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, adding lengths of tubing is not the same as lowering the pitch a certain number of semitones in every register. The odd-numbered overtone bit is about the number of loops and nodes in the bore, not the resulting pitch. There is a pressure loop at the mouthpiece end, and a node at the bell. N.B. the bell flare means the effective tubing length varies with pitch. Of course, the mouthpiece and player's anatomy play a part too. See this UNSW page. regards, Just plain Bill (talk) 16:48, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

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I need to help add citation s 132.147.192.240 (talk) 20:38, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ⸺(Random)staplers 21:58, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Type in Help: in the search box should help you get started.⸺(Random)staplers 21:59, 8 September 2024 (UTC)