Talk:Vehicle excise duty

Further to the discussion in #Vehicles section above, and as I thought, the discussion over the use of the term 'road tax' used to be covered in a section in the article. Trawling back through the history I found that it was deleted on 4 February 2016. Given that the confusion over the use of this term is still an occasional catalyst for disruption to the article, I wondered if it is time to restore that section, with updates as necessary. I'll reproduce the old section here in a collapsed box for reference.

Pinging Sanbear and Cnbrb as contributors to the discussion on this since that section was removed. Any thoughts about re-adding that, or something similar? -- DeFacto (talk). 07:11, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

That section doesn't read very neutral point of view, the tone of the section sounds a bit biased. I'm also hesitant to give credence to the "VED==Road Tax" argument, as it's false. The phrase 'road tax' doesn't exist in actual British Law (conscious of DeFacto's repeated example of using the Oxford Dictionary, which has been also discussed at length). I wonder if the London_congestion_charge or Ultra Low Emission Zone are considered taxes as well by DeFacto as they are more similar to VED. Sanbear (talk) 09:19, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Sanbear, we could add it and then work on the POV or we could discuss the POV here and agree a wording before adding it. Thoughts? -- DeFacto (talk). 09:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Pending any progress here, I've restored the long-term status quo in the article per WP:BRD. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:20, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi DeFacto I reverted your change, as VED still isn't road tax, and to call it as such is incorrect. You're right, it would be great to have a section on this, but I don't have the time to do that right now. Gotta start small, which is correcting the mistake. I will be happy to contribute to the conversation a bit more when I have more time. I honestly don't have hours to spend disagreeing on wikipedia, it's a sunny day! Sanbear (talk) 10:09, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Sanbear, have you read WP:BRD? How do you justify forcing your POV into the article without a consensus? Wikipedia does not allow the assertion of a viewpoint in it's voice, even that viewpoint is presented, in three different sources, as fact.

And using a polemic piece to support any fact would probably fall short of the WP:RS policy anyway. Let's stick to the well known historical facts, and where an opinion is more that fringe we should only add it with duly sourced attribution. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:19, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

It's been sourced, and it's not a POV, it's a fact. BRD doesn't really apply to edits that clarify something. Why do you think that it should be incorrectly regarded as 'road tax' when the government itself says it is Vehicle Excise Duty? If it is called Vehicle Excise Duty, and has nothing to do with roads, then it would be incorrectly regarded as a 'road tax'. Sanbear (talk) 15:03, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Sanbear it's been sourced to polemical articles. They challenge the notion of a "road tax" because the money raised from it isn't ring-fenced to provide roads. That's a bit like saying tobacco tax is a misnomer because the revenue doesn't provide tobacco. They could well have been inspired by the cyclist lobby group i Pay Road Tax who campaign to suppress the use of the term, and promulgate myths and misinformation, such as the claim that road tax was abolished in 1937, on their website.

The road/vehicle tax has existed as an excise duty since Victorian times, when it applied to horse-drawn vehicles too. In its early days the revenue from it was ring-fenced for road provision and the pot for it was called the "Road Fund". This pot however, kept being raided by the chancellor to spend on stuff other than roads. This became a political issue, so in 1937 the direct link to the road fund was broken, and the revenue was paid into the general exchequer, along with the receipts from other taxes.

The Road Fund itself wasn't abolished though (it continued until the 1950s), it was still kept for road provision, but the appropriate ministry had to compete with all the other ministries each year for funds from the chancellor to keep it topped up. The road/vehicle tax did not change in nature though, it continued to be an excise duty, and neither did its name change, and continues today as an excise duty, like fuel tax, tobacco tax and alcohol tax are.

Like other duties, its name isn't based on what it's revenue is spent on, it is based on the commodity it is targeting to raise the revenue from. In the case of road/vehicle tax, the tax is raised for the use of certain vehicle types on the public highway. And it's not a straightforward vehicle tax because it is not charged if the qualifying vehicle isn't used on a public road, and it's not a straightforward road tax because it is not charged for all vehicle types using a public road (think push bikes, electric vehicles, etc.).

The fact remains though, it is commonly known as both a "road tax" and a "vehicle tax" regardless of its "formal" name, and that long-standing common use it why the OED list it as "road tax / NOUN / British / A periodic tax payable on motor vehicles using public roads.", and why The Oxford Dictionary of Law use it in preference to "vehicle excise duty", with their definition starting: "road tax / A tax (formally called vehicle excise duty) that must be paid in respect of any mechanically propelled vehicle used, parked, or kept on a public road.".

If you are still unconvinced, I'll try and find some more sources covering the history of the tax, and we can discuss it further. For now I'd hope that you'd follow the WP:BRD guidance and self-revert while we do not have a consensus on this. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:21, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

I dispute the description of the use of term "road tax" as being "erroneous". So, to continue on from the discussion in #Vehicles and #Shall we restore the old 'road tax' terminology section? sections above...

Sanbear, in Hansard I just found where the chancellor explains the 1937 change that is often misrepresented as being the abolition of road tax. On 20 April 1937, Chamberlain says in his financial statement to the commons: ... the decision last year to abolish the system of earmarking Motor Vehicle Duties to the Road Fund... Thus confirming the continuity of what he referred to as "Motor Vehicle Duties", with the only change being that the revenues would no longer be earmarked for the Road Fund. The best we can say is that from 1937 the term "Road Fund Licence" became a misnomer as the duty paid for the licence from that date was no longer credited directly into the Road Fund. No duty/tax was abolished. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

DeFacto, This is still in the Magna Carta: "Heirs may be given in marriage, but not to someone of lower social standing." It's obviously not still valid. Just because something was a law previously, or was or wasn't mentioned in the Hansard in 1937 doesn't make it true now. Here's a statement from the official DVLA account regarding VED: https://twitter.com/DVLAgovuk/status/1012311112103194624 . The statement is : " I can confirm that it is vehicle tax and not road tax. The revenue from individual taxes is not generally devoted to specific items of expenditure. There has been no direct relationship between motoring taxation and road expenditure since 1937."^[1]. It's very hard to argue with your belief, when the facts are, that VED is erroneously called road tax, since you don't have to pay it to operate on the road. You only have to pay it if you take a polluting vehicle on a public highway, hence Vehicle Excise Duty. Notably, bicycles, which are legally considered vehicles, don't have to even register for VED. Similarly, electric cars, while they have to register for VED are not liable for VED and pay no VED to use public highways. Also, highly pollution cars don't have to pay VED if they are only used off of public highways/roads Sanbear (talk) 09:10, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Sanbear, you are incorrectly assuming that the name of a tax reflects what its proceeds are spent on. Excise duties are generally named after the commodity that they are applied to and not after the use to which they are put. Think about alcohol tax, fuel tax and tobacco tax. Or do you think the revenue from alcohol tax is used to buy alcohol? VED is a duty applied to some classes of vehicles for the use of public roads, so it is both a vehicle tax and a road tax in equal measures. This is normal English usage and is not erroneous as it has been that way since its inception in the 19th century and did not change when it ceased to be used to fund road building in the 1930s.

Here's an article from yesterday's The Scotsman describing this year's changes to it, using the terms "road tax", "vehicle tax" and "VED" synonymously and interchangeably. And here's a similar article from March by U-Switch using the term similarly. "Road tax" and "vehicle tax" are terms which are still in common usage because the tax is still levied for the use of certain vehicles on public roads. If the tax ever ceases to be applied for the use of public roads, then, perhaps, the term "road tax" could be considered to be erroneous. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:26, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Reverted because there was no consensus to remove either. It is in fact not a 'road tax.' Many vehicles that use the road legally do not have to pay it. It's a tax on emissions. This needs to be clarified. 2A02:C7F:F042:B400:4D36:1E06:C0DA:724B (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:57, 13 November 2021 (UTC)

Defacto, it is not officially called "Road Tax". The Scotsman, as is often done, erroneously called it "Road Tax". It's not "Road Tax" it's VED. The government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland refers to it as "VED." Tax disc is also of course anachronistic and erroneous, as there is no such thing as a tax disc either anymore. It is incorrect to refer to VED as a "Road Tax" as it's not a tax to be on the road, it's a tax to put a polluting vehicle on a public highway. If "Road Tax" existed, then all road users would be required to pay it, including pedestrians and horse riders. Sanbear (talk) 11:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Sanbear, yes it is officially called "Vehicle Excise Duty", but so what? That does not make all other terms for it erroneous, especially those in common use in reliable sources and defined as such in dictionaries and legal text books. It is explicitly a tax to use the road; that is part of the legal definition of it. Cars, even those emitting the most foul gases and particles, do not require this tax to be paid unless they are used on public roads, so it's not simply a pollution tax either.

As we already know too, it is only payable for certain classes of vehicle, so not all vehicles, but nevertheless it is a road tax for those vehicles that it does apply to, as well as a vehicle tax and a tax on the potential to pollute too.

Would you also argue that there is no such thing as "income tax" because there are many people with incomes that are not liable to pay it? -- DeFacto (talk). 11:39, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

No, I would refer to income tax as income tax, as that is it's official name. I would refer to alcohol tax as alcohol tax, as it's a tax on alcohol. VED is a tax on vehicles that pollute while on public highways, and is not officially called road tax. If the term "road tax" is used, it is used inappropriately; according to many government agencies, including the DVLA and various police departments; but again, importantly, the DVLA who of course, collects VED. 13:45, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

To further the point that it's not a 'road tax' the actual law is: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1994/22/section/6 . You can see in the law that all money goes to the consolidated fund (i.e. not just for roads) and it's a tax on emissions of the vehicle. So it's a Vehicle Emissions tax, that doesn't fund roads, so not really a 'road tax'. Sanbear (talk) 22:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Sanbear, that doesn't further that point at all, that information is already in the article in the 'History' section where it says: "Hypothecation came to an end in 1937 under the 1936 Finance Act, and the proceeds of the vehicle road taxes were paid directly into the Exchequer".

Further, as we've seen above, taxes aren't generally named after what they are spent on, but on what they are raised on. Remember: "alcohol tax" is raised on alcohol but isn't spent on it, "fuel tax" is raised on fuel but isn't spent on it, etc. Hence it is not a revelation or a defining factor that a "road tax" is not spent exclusively on roads.

Did you notice too what the first sentence of the act you referenced says? It says 'A duty of excise (“vehicle excise duty”) shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom and shall be paid on a licence to be taken out by the person keeping the vehicle'. In other words: it is a road-use tax for mechanically propelled vehicles - i.e. both a "road tax" and a "[motor] vehicle tax", as is correctly noted in the article.

Yes, the amount of CO2 that the vehicle could potentially emit is currently taken into account to arrive at the amount of road/vehicle tax payable for a given motor vehicle, so you could argue that it is also, loosely, a CO2 tax, but regardless, the tax is only payable for the use of public roads.

Look at it this way... If you buy two identical motor vehicles, and keep/use one of them only on your private grounds and keep/use the other one on public roads, you only have to pay VED on the one you keep/use on public roads. -- DeFacto (talk). 06:45, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

"shall be paid on a licence to be taken out" - so it's a vehicle licensing tax.82.31.133.23 (talk) 11:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Reverted given the lack of consensus to keep. -- DeFacto (talk). 23:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)