User talk:BartBassist

More information No., Name (Birth–Death) ...

No.	Name (Birth–Death)	Portrait	Division	Party	Assumed office	Left office	Ref
1	Sir Edmund Barton (1849–1920)		MP for Hunter, NSW, 1901–1903 (resigned)	Protectionist (Barton Ministry)	1 January 1901	24 September 1903	[1]
			First Australian Prime Minister, selected in preference to William Lyne despite Hopetoun Blunder. Elected 1901 (inaugural federal election). Retired to pursue judicial career.
2	Alfred Deakin (1856–1919)		MP for Ballaarat, Vic(1), 1901–1913 (retired)	Protectionist (1st Deakin Ministry)	24 September 1903	27 April 1904	[2]
			Elected 1903; three-way hung Parliament, with government reliant on Labor support. Unable to pass any legislation; resigned.
3	Chris Watson (1867–1941)		MP for Bland, NSW, 1901–1906 MP for South Sydney, NSW, 1906–1910 (retired)	Labor (Watson Ministry)	27 April 1904	18 August 1904	[3]
			First Labour Prime Minister in the world. Enacted tax reforms. Minority government; sought a double dissolution to allow an election; refused by the Governor-General; resigned.
4	Sir George Reid (1845–1918)		MP for East Sydney, NSW, 1901–1909 (resigned)	Free Trade (Reid Ministry)	18 August 1904	5 July 1905	[4]
			Premier of New South Wales 1894–1899; first former state premier to become Prime Minister. Minority government; resigned when Protectionists and Labor formed an alliance.
(2)	Alfred Deakin (1856–1919)		MP for Ballaarat, Vic(1), 1901–1913 (retired)	Protectionist (2nd, 3rd Deakin Ministries)	5 July 1905	13 November 1908
			Re-elected 1906. Passed extensive legislation; Arranged for Australian control of Papua and Northern Territory; Expanded High Court to five justices.
5	Andrew Fisher (1862–1928)		MP for Wide Bay, Qld, 1901–1915 (resigned)	Labor (1st Fisher Ministry)	13 November 1908	2 June 1909	[5]
			Seat of Government Act, providing for a federal capital at Canberra; Workers' wage reform; Prepared for establishment of the Navy. Ousted by Parliamentary majority held by the newly merged Commonwealth Liberal Party.
(2)	Alfred Deakin (1856–1919)		MP for Ballaarat, Vic(1), 1901–1913 (retired)	Commonwealth Liberal (4th Deakin Ministry)	2 June 1909	29 April 1910
			Deakin's Protectionist Party had merged with Joseph Cook's Anti-Communist Party, resulting in the first absolute majority government. Ordered the dreadnought battle cruiser; Financial Agreement of 1909, granting the States 25 shillings per head per annum. Defeated 1910.
(5)	Andrew Fisher (1862–1928)		MP for Wide Bay, Qld, 1901–1915 (resigned)	Labor (2nd Fisher Ministry)	29 April 1910	24 June 1913
			Elected 1910; absolute majority. Instigated social and financial reform, including Australia's first paper currency. Defeated 1913.
6	Joseph Cook (1860–1947)		MP for Parramatta, NSW, 1901–1921 (resigned)	Commonwealth Liberal (Cook Ministry)	24 June 1913	17 September 1914	[6]
			Elected 1913 with a one-seat majority; Labor retained a Senate majority. Outbreak of World War I. Brought about a double dissolution; defeated 1914.
(5)	Andrew Fisher (1862–1928)		MP for Wide Bay, Qld, 1901–1915 (resigned)	Labor (3rd Fisher Ministry)	17 September 1914	27 October 1915
			Elected 1914. Pledged absolute support to "the mother country" (the UK) in World War I. Enacted both peacetime and defence legislation. Oversaw heavy Australian losses in the Gallipoli Campaign; resigned.
7	Billy Hughes (1862–1952)		MP for West Sydney, NSW, 1901–1917 MP for Bendigo, Vic, 1917–1922 MP for North Sydney, NSW, 1922–1949 MP for Bradfield, NSW, 1949–1952 (died)	Labor (1st Hughes Ministry)	27 October 1915	14 November 1916	[7]
				National Labor (2nd Hughes Ministry)	14 November 1916	17 February 1917
				Nationalist (3rd, 4th, 5th Hughes Ministries)	17 February 1917	9 February 1923
			Advocated conscription during World War I, on which he lost a plebiscite; expelled from the Labor Party. His new National Labor Party entered into an alliance with the Commonwealth Liberal Party, later merging fully as the Nationalist Party, elected 1917 and 1919. Introduced Preferential voting. Lost a second plebiscite on conscription; resigned as PM, but immediately re-commissioned. The first Australian to sign an international treaty, the Treaty of Versailles. Re-elected 1922; hung Parliament. Lost support of the right wing of the party; resigned.
8	Stanley Bruce (1883–1967)		MP for Flinders, Vic, 1918–1929 (lost seat) ; 1931–1933 (resigned)	Nationalist (1st, 2nd, 3rd Bruce Ministries)	9 February 1923	22 October 1929	[8]
			Elected 1925, 1928. Supported the British Empire, the League of Nations, and the White Australia Policy; Maritime Industries crisis. Defeated (and lost his own seat) 1929.
9	James Scullin (1876–1953)		MP for Yarra, Vic, 1910–1949 (retired)	Labor (Scullin Ministry)	22 October 1929	6 January 1932	[9]
			Elected 1929. Wall Street Crash of 1929 and Great Depression. The government split on economic issues, forcing a vote of no confidence; defeated 1931.
10	Joseph Lyons (1879–1939)		MP for Wilmot, Tas, 1929–1939 (died)	United Australia (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Lyons Ministries)	6 January 1932	7 April 1939 (died)	[10]
			Premier of Tasmania 1923–1928. Elected 1931, 1934, 1937. Recovery from the Great Depression; Supported appeasement, but expanded the armed forces; Edward VIII abdication crisis. Died in office (heart attack).
11	Sir Earle Page (1880–1961)		MP for Cowper, NSW 1919–1961 (defeated)	Country (Page Ministry)	7 April 1939	26 April 1939	[11]
			Leader of the Country Party, junior member in the Lyons-Page Coalition Government. Appointed by the Governor-General on Lyons' death, until United Australia elected a leader; refused to serve under Robert Menzies; overthrown as Country Party leader.
12	Robert Menzies (1894–1978)		MP for Kooyong, Vic, 1934–1966 (resigned)	United Australia (1st, 2nd, 3rd Menzies Ministries)	26 April 1939	28 August 1941	[12]
			Minority government until the Country Party re-joined the government. Outbreak of World War II. Defeated 1940; remained in government only with independent support. Forced to resign.
13	Arthur Fadden (1895–1973)		MP for Darling Downs, Qld 1936–1949 MP for McPherson, Qld 1949–1958 (retired)	Country (Fadden Ministry)	28 August 1941	7 October 1941	[13]
			Leader of the Country Party, junior member in the Coalition Government. Appointed on Menzies' resignation. Hung Parliament reliant on support of Independent MPs (Coles and Wilson); they voted against Fadden's budget. Resigned.
14	John Curtin (1885–1945)		MP for Fremantle, WA, 1928–1931 (lost seat) ; 1934–1945 (died)	Labor (1st, 2nd Curtin Ministries)	7 October 1941	5 July 1945 (died)
			Appointed by the Governor-General on condition that Independent MPs Coles and Wilson would support him, thereby ending government instability. Re-elected 1943. Led Australia through World War II. Died in office (heart attack).
15	Frank Forde (1890–1983)		MP for Capricornia, Qld, 1922–1946 (defeated)	Labor (Forde Ministry)	6 July 1945	13 July 1945
			Deputy Prime Minister under Curtin. On Curtin's death, served as interim Prime Minister until Labor Party leadership elections. Defeated by Ben Chifley in leadership elections; appointed Deputy Party Leader and Minister for Defence.
16	Ben Chifley (1885–1951)		MP for Macquarie, NSW, 1928–1931 (lost seat) ; 1940–1951 (died)	Labor (1st, 2nd Chifley Ministries)	13 July 1945	19 December 1949
(12)	Robert Menzies (1894–1978)		MP for Kooyong, Vic, 1934–1966 (resigned)	Liberal (4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th Menzies Ministries)	19 December 1949	26 January 1966
17	Harold Holt (1908–1967)		MP for Fawkner, Vic, 1935–1949 MP for Higgins, Vic, 1949–1967†	Liberal (1st, 2nd Holt Ministries)	26 January 1966	19 December 1967†
			Re-elected 1966. Cold War; Expanded Australia's role in Vietnam War. †Disappeared while swimming at Cheviot Beach 17 December 1967; declared dead 19 December.
18	John McEwen (1900–1980)		MP for Echuca, Vic, 1934–1937 MP for Indi, Vic, 1937–1949 MP for Murray, Vic, 1949–1971 (resigned)	Country (McEwen Ministry)	19 December 1967	10 January 1968
			Leader of the Country Party, junior member in the Menzies-Holt Coalition Government. Appointed by the Governor-General on Holt's disappearance, until the Liberals elected a leader; refused to serve under the obvious candidate William McMahon. John Gorton selected instead; Gorton appointed McEwen Deputy Prime Minister.
19	John Gorton (1911–2002)		Senator 1950–1968 (resigned3) MP for Higgins, Vic, 1968–1975 (retired4)	Liberal (1st, 2nd Gorton Ministries)	10 January 1968	10 March 1971
			The only Senator to serve as Prime Minister; resigned from the Senate and elected MP. Re-elected 1969. Continued to support involvement in Vietnam War. Retired.
20	William McMahon (1908–1988)		MP for Lowe, NSW, 1949–1982 (resigned)	Liberal (McMahon Ministry)	10 March 1971	5 December 1972
			Continued to support conscription and involvement in Vietnam War. Defeated 1972.
21	Gough Whitlam (1916– )	File:Whitlam1955.jpg	MP for Werriwa, NSW, 1952–1978 (resigned)	Labor (1st, 2nd, 3rd Whitlam Ministries)	5 December 1972	11 November 1975
22	Malcolm Fraser (1930– )		MP for Wannon, Vic, 1955–1983 (resigned)	Liberal (1st, 2nd, 3rd Fraser Ministries)	11 November 1975	11 March 1983
23	Bob Hawke (1929– )		MP for Wills, Vic, 1980–1992 (resigned)	Labor (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Hawke Ministries)	11 March 1983	20 December 1991
24	Paul Keating (1944– )		MP for Blaxland, NSW, 1969–1996 (resigned)	Labor (1st, 2nd Keating Ministries)	20 December 1991	11 March 1996
			Re-elected 1993. Mandatory detention of asylum seekers; Reconciliation with Aborigines, including Redfern Park Speech and Native Title Act 1993; Established the Republic Advisory Committee; Relations with Asia, through APEC. Defeated 1996.
25	John Howard (1939– )		MP for Bennelong, NSW, 1974–2007 (lost seat)	Liberal (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Howard Ministries)	11 March 1996	3 December 2007
			Defeated 1987. Elected 1996, 1998, 2001, 2004. Defeated (and lost his own seat) 2007.
26	Kevin Rudd (1957– )		MP for Griffith, QLD, since 1998	Labor (Rudd Ministry)	3 December 2007	Incumbent
			Elected 2007. Signed Kyoto Protocol; Issued apology to the Stolen Generations; Withdrew troops from Iraq War; Upheld Australian involvement in War in Afghanistan.

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Hi BartBassit, most of this table looks good so far (reading discussion at Talk:List of Prime Ministers of Australia), would you like me to finnish it as you seemed to have stopped or how long until you will have it finished? Regards Wikistar (Place order here) 13:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

†died in office ‡served as interim leader

• Piece of trivia which becomes apparent from this list:

Q: There is said to be "something of the night" about Michael Howard, but in what respect could he be considered Jim Callaghan's shadow?

A: Callaghan was the only man to have served in all four Great Offices of State. Howard is the only man to have served in all four shadow offices.

Aside from this, people have an interesting tendency to shift from right to left on this table (most notably Howard) as their careers progress.

More information Political party, Leader of the Opposition ...

Political party		Leader of the Opposition		Deputy Leader of the Opposition		Shadow Chancellor		Shadow Foreign Secretary		Shadow Home Secretary
	Labour	Hugh Gaitskell 14 Dec 1955– 18 Jan 1963†	File:HughGaitskell2.jpg	Jim Griffiths 1955–1959		Harold Wilson 14 Dec 1955– 2 Nov 1961		Alfred Robens 14 Dec 1955– 22 July 1956	File:Alfred Robbens2.jpg	Kenneth Younger 14 Dec 1955– 13 May 1957
								Aneurin Bevan 22 July 1956– 11 Oct 1959	File:Bevan nla.pic-vn3646742.jpg
										Patrick Gordon Walker 13 May 1957– 12 Mar 1962
				Aneurin Bevan 1959– 6 July 1960†	File:Bevan nla.pic-vn3646742.jpg			Denis Healey 11 Oct 1959– 2 Nov 1961
				George Brown 1960– 15 Oct 1964‡	File:LordGeorge-Brown2.jpg
						James Callaghan 2 Nov 1961– 15 Oct 1964		Harold Wilson 2 Nov 1961– 14 Feb 1963
										George Brown 12 Mar 1962– 15 Feb 1963	File:LordGeorge-Brown2.jpg
		Harold Wilson 14 Feb 1963– 16 Oct 1964						Patrick Gordon Walker 14 Feb 1963– 15 Oct 1964		Frank Soskice 15 Feb 1963– 15 Oct 1964
	Conservative	Sir Alec Douglas-Home 16 Oct 1964– 28 July 1965		VACANT		Reginald Maudling 15 Oct 1964– 27 July 1965	50px	R. A. Butler 15 Oct 1964– 27 July 1965		Edward Boyle 15 Oct 1964– 28 July 1965
		Edward Heath 28 July 1965– 18 June 1970		Reginald Maudling 28 July 1965– 18 June 1970	50px	Edward Heath 28 July 1965– 11 Nov 1965		Reginald Maudling 27 July 1965– 11 Nov 1965	50px	Peter Thorneycroft 28 July 1965– 13 Apr 1966
						Iain Macleod 11 Nov 1965– 20 June 1970		Christopher Soames 11 Nov 1965– 13 Apr 1966
								Sir Alec Douglas-Home 13 Apr 1966– 18 June 1970		Quinten McGarel Hogg 13 Apr 1966– 18 June 1970
	Labour	Harold Wilson 19 June 1970– 4 Mar 1974		Roy Jenkins 19 June 1970– 7 Apr 1972		Roy Jenkins 20 June 1970– 19 Apr 1972		Denis Healey 20 June 1970– 19 Apr 1972		James Callaghan 18 June 1970– 19 Oct 1971
										Shirley Williams 19 Oct 1971– 4 May 1973
				Edward Short April 1972– 28 Feb 1974		Denis Healey 19 Apr 1972– 28 Feb 1974		James Callaghan 19 Apr 1972– 28 Feb 1974
										Roy Jenkins 4 May 1973– 4 Mar 1974
	Conservative	Edward Heath 4 Mar 1974– 11 Feb 1975		William Whitelaw 4 Mar 1974– 4 May 1979		Robert Carr 28 Feb 1974– 11 Feb 1975		Geoffrey Rippon 28 Feb 1974– 11 Feb 1975		Keith Joseph 4 Mar 1974– 11 Feb 1975
		Margaret Thatcher 11 Feb 1975– 4 May 1979				Sir Geoffrey Howe 11 Feb 1975– 4 May 1979		Reginald Maudling 11 Feb 1975– 11 Apr 1976	50px	Ian Gilmour 11 Feb 1975– 11 Apr 1976
								John Davies 11 Apr 1976– 23 Sep 1978		William Whitelaw 11 Apr 1976– 4 May 1979
								Francis Pym 23 Sep 1978– 4 May 1979	File:Zconcam61.jpg
	Labour	James Callaghan 4 May 1979– 10 Nov 1980		Michael Foot 4 May 1979– 10 Nov 1980	File:MichaelFoot1953.jpg	Denis Healey 4 May 1979– 4 Nov 1980		Peter Shore 4 May 1979– 4 Nov 1980		Merlyn Rees 4 May 1979– 4 Nov 1980
		Michael Foot 10 Nov 1980– 2 Oct 1983	File:MichaelFoot1953.jpg	Denis Healey 4 Nov 1980– 11 June 1983		Peter Shore 4 Nov 1980– 9 June 1983		Denis Healey 4 Nov 1980– 13 June 1987		Roy Hattersley 4 Nov 1980– 2 Oct 1983
		Neil Kinnock 2 Oct 1983– 18 July 1992		Roy Hattersley 9 June 1983– 11 April 1992		Roy Hattersley 9 June 1983– 11 June 1987				Gerald Kaufman 2 Oct 1983– 13 June 1987
						John Smith 11 June 1987– 18 July 1992		Gerald Kaufman 11 June 1987– 19 July 1992		Roy Hattersley 13 June 1987– 19 July 1992
		John Smith 18 July 1992– 12 May 1994†		Margaret Beckett 11 April 1992– 12 May 1994‡		Gordon Brown 18 July 1992– 2 May 1997		Jack Cunningham 11 Apr 1992– 22 July 1994		Tony Blair 19 July 1992– 22 July 1994
		Tony Blair 21 July 1994– 2 May 1997		John Prescott 21 July 1994– 2 May 1997				Robin Cook 22 July 1994– 2 May 1997		Jack Straw 22 July 1994– 2 May 1997
	Conservative	John Major 7 May 1997– 11 June 1997		VACANT		Kenneth Clarke 2 May 1997– 11 June 1997	File:Ken Clarke 01.jpg	John Major 7 May 1997– 11 June 1997		Michael Howard 2 May 1997– 11 June 1997
		William Hague 19 June 1997– 18 Dec 2001				Peter Lilley 11 June 1997– 2 June 1998		Michael Howard 11 June 1997– 15 June 1999		Brian Mawhinney 11 June 1997– 2 June 1998
				Peter Lilley 1998– 1999		Francis Maude 2 June 1998– 1 Feb 2000				Norman Fowler 2 June 1998– 15 June 1999
				VACANT				John Maples 15 June 1999– 2 Feb 2000		Ann Widdecombe 15 June 1999– 18 Sep 2001
						Michael Portillo 1 Feb 2000– 18 Sep 2001		Francis Maude 2 Feb 2000– 18 Sep 2001
		Iain Duncan Smith 18 Sep 2001– 6 Nov 2003		Michael Ancram 18 Sep 2001– Dec 2005		Michael Howard 18 Sep 2001– 6 Nov 2003		Michael Ancram 18 Sep 2001– 10 May 2005		Oliver Letwin 18 Sep 2001– 6 Nov 2003
		Michael Howard 6 Nov 2003– 6 Dec 2005				Oliver Letwin 6 Nov 2003– 5 May 2005				David Davis 6 Nov 2003– 12 June 2008
						George Osborne 5 May 2005– 6 May 2010		Liam Fox 10 May 2005– 6 Dec 2005
		David Cameron 6 Dec 2005– 6 May 2010		William Hague Dec 2005– 6 May 2010				William Hague 6 Dec 2005– 6 May 2010
										Dominic Grieve 12 June 2008– 19 Jan 2009
										Chris Grayling 19 Jan 2009– 6 May 2010
	Labour	Harriet Harman (acting)		Harriet Harman 11 May 2010–		Alistair Darling 11 May 2010– 8 Oct 2010		David Miliband 11 May 2010– 8 Oct 2010		Alan Johnson 11 May 2010– 8 Oct 2010
		Ed Miliband 25 Sep 2010–				Alan Johnson 8 Oct 2010–		Yvette Cooper 8 Oct 2010–		Ed Balls 8 Oct 2010–

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Thanks Bart, for the Ainsworth PD file , that pic has been a long time coming, good work. Off2riorob (talk) 20:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello! Remember when you made some family trees for me? Well, you've done a great job and, since you clearly enjoy creating family trees, I wanted to propose making a family tree of Roman/Greek gods. I believe you'll really have fun doing it, as the family relationships are very complex (gods marrying their sisters, goddesses marrying their great-nephews, goddesses born of brother-sister marriages marrying their uncles, etc). I don't need it; it's just for your entertaintment, though it would be very useful for Wikipedia as well. If you do create one, please let me know! Surtsicna (talk) 22:44, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Hello, BartBassist. You have new messages at Connormah's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Connormah (talk | contribs) 21:39, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Nigel Lawson BW.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree files because its copyright status is unclear or disputed. If the file's copyright status cannot be verified, it may be deleted. You may find more information on the file description page. You are welcome to add comments to its entry at the discussion if you are interested in it not being deleted. Thank you. -- fetchcomms☛ 02:06, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I think in general that colour pictures are better than soemthing black and white. I cropped some of the clunkier images into headshots. Hopefully this helps resolve some of your objection. Adam sk (talk) 05:13, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for uploading File:Nigel Lawson BW.jpg. I noticed the description page specifies that the media is being used under a claim of fair use, but its use in Wikipedia articles fails our first non-free content criterion in that it illustrates a subject for which a freely licensed media could reasonably be found or created that provides substantially the same information. If you believe this media is not replaceable, please:

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Please stop adding your personal observations about the names of the Greek Prime Ministers. Personal observations are by definition original research. The Greek Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Please check the policies of WP:OR, WP:RS and WP:V. Also WP:3RR. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 01:22, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your message. I have replied on my talk. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 15:38, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Please go right ahead. Take care. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 16:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe that there's no any inefficiency to edit a considerable improvement on the current formatting of the section. --Helfmann (talk) 06:53, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think that political leanings of early Chancellors should be marked with partisan colors, although they weren't members of any party. They had very strong political leanings (especially Bismarck), and they should me marked with appropriate colors. Next, I removed partisan color from the last part of the table because there is already meta/colors (like Christian Democratic Union (Germany)/meta/color, for example) to mark that part of the table. --Sundostund (talk) 10:50, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you to reintroduce the coloring of the Diet column. It's really useful to to show who controlled the Bundestag at a particular period. Also, you are free to modify colors for "Liberal Conservative" political faction and the Nazi Party in order to reduce similarity between them. --Sundostund (talk) 16:11, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Hello. Instead of going straight to WP:FLRC, I'm here to let you know that the subject list is at risk of being nominated for demotion. There are several comments on the talk page. If these are not addressed in the next week then the list will be nominated for demotion. Feel free to let me know if you'd like to understand more about this process. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:23, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for uploading File:Wang Shizhen.jpg. I noticed that the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you did not create this file yourself, you will need to specify the owner of the copyright. If you obtained it from a website, please add a link to the website from which it was taken, together with a brief restatement of that website's terms of use of its content. However, if the copyright holder is a party unaffiliated from the website's publisher, that copyright should also be acknowledged.

If you have uploaded other files, consider verifying that you have specified sources for those files as well. You can find a list of files you have created in your upload log. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been tagged per Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion, F4. If the image is copyrighted and non-free, the image will be deleted 48 hours after 15:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC) per speedy deletion criterion F7. If you have any questions or are in need of assistance please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Magog the Ogre (talk) 15:21, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

You forgot to add a copyright tag for File:Theunis.jpg that you uploaded recently. We take copyright status very seriously, so it may be deleted if you don't add an appropriate one to show the copyright status of the image. ww2censor (talk) 05:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I see you added a {{cc-by-sa-2.5}} licence to the image but I don't see any evidence from the source provided that this licence is proper to the image. Where do you see that this is the correct copyright licence for the image? ww2censor (talk) 06:55, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The image refers to hu:Fájl:FOTO DE BROQUEVILLE.JPG, where the proprietor of ars-moriendi.be licenses all the content of that webpage with a cc-by-2.5. BartBassist (talk) 07:00, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Since the revival of that Barony of Latimer from abeyance from 1913, the Money-Coutts barons have spelled their title Latymer. But this is not usual and not binding for the Nevill barons, their ancestors; Complete Peerage and the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography agree in spelling that title, like the original family, Latimer. We should spell Henry VIII's stepson as reliable sources spell him; the Wardour Street mediaevalism of his distant descendants (who are, individually and collectively, far less notable) is not uncommon among the claimants of long-forgotten titles. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:47, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Please consider expanding your watchlist to include Template:Family tree of Ashikaga clan and Template talk:Family tree of Ashikaga clan#Reference source. --Tenmei (talk) 14:43, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi - Looking at your page, a few questions. First, should the Cabal be listed? The most important thing about that period is that there really wasn't a single chief minister. Arlington was probably the closest, as he was basically running foreign affairs, but none of them was dominant in domestic affairs. Second, I think that a lot of the men you list were not really the chief minister - specifically Godolphin 1684-1685, Belasyse, Montagu 1694-1699, Pembroke 1699-1702, Halifax 1714-1715, Carlisle, and Walpole 1715-1717. I don't think you'll find any reliable source that considers any of those men to have been the chief minister at those times. I think the indisputable cases of single chief ministers before 1730 (I don't think Walpole really qualifies even in the 1720s, given that Townshend was essentially his equal, and had full control of foreign policy) are Clarendon 1660-1667, Danby 1674-1679, Godolphin 1702-1710, and Harley 1710-1714. The rest are all arguable. I think that some consideration should be given to the people I listed in my original post. In the period after 1714, I think the situation is actually pretty clear, but doesn't fit a table all that well. From George I's arrival until 1716, Townshend was effectively the chief minister, even though he was being undermined for most of 1716 by Stanhope. Then, after a period of some confusion and uncertainty when there wasn't really a single leader, between early 1717 to early 1721, Stanhope and Sunderland were effectively joint leaders. Your 1718 switching point seems wrong to me. Yes, they exchanged offices that year, but the idea that Sunderland was serving under Stanhope from 1717 to 1718, and then Stanhope was serving under Sunderland from 1718 to 1721 can't really be defended.

On the whole, I think it would be good to both extend this list to earlier periods - people like Strafford, Buckingham, the Cecils, Northumberland, and Wolsey seem at least as deserving of listing as the later ones, and certainly more worthy of listing than someone like Belasyse or Carlisle, who weren't chief ministers any more than the Earl of Iddesleigh and William Henry Smith were prime ministers. I think there should also be much less of an effort to fill every gap. This was an unofficial post, and there were gaps. There's a useful list in a 1923 book by Viscount Mersey, who was an early 20th century politician and judge. He gives us, in the period in question, only Clarendon, Danby/Carmarthen twice (in 1673-1678 and again 1692-1695), Godolphin from 1702-1710, and Harley. For anyone beyond that, we should find sources. john k (talk) 00:31, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. Personally, I like the entry for the Cabal, as it clarifies your point that no single individual was in charge. I agree that some of my entries, such as Belasyse, are dodgy: I followed the pre-existing templated list of ministries at the bottom of my page, which includes all of the ministries which I have listed. The situation is clear, but difficult to tabulate, from 1714 onwards. The problem with listing Townshend as chief minister is that he seems to have been an eminence grise, acknowledged as leader without formally holding office as leader, like Lord Carteret in Wilmington's ministry. I have listed Halifax, Carlisle and Walpole in this period in the Wilmington role (or, for a clearer example, in the Portland role in the Fox-North administration). I agree that Stanhope and Sunderland led jointly 1717–1721; I hope that the names of their ministries, and my explanation of this period in the introduction, makes this clear.

One of my arguments is that the post of "Prime Minister" gradually evolved from the Lord High Treasurer / First Lord of the Treasury post. Most of the people listed (though not all) were Lord High Treasurer or First Lord; with some exceptions, it seems to have been accepted that the Lord High Treasurer or First Lord had a significant claim to be in charge since Danby in 1674. Temple in 1679 is an odd entry, and doesn't really fit the run, but I found this early attempt at political reform extremely interesting, so I included it.

Finally, I lack the expertise to extend my own list further back than 1660, though I agree that this is desirable. BartBassist (talk) 07:54, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Looking at your list, the only individuals I have missed (apart from Townshend, discussed above) are Sunderland 1684 and Shrewsbury 1695. I couldn't really find any rationale behind either of them. BartBassist (talk) 08:29, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Hmm...do you have any sources that back up the idea that Carlisle, say, was viewed as the nominal head of the administration? I've just never seen anything that says anything like that, although I admit I'm not expert in the period. As far as Sunderland and Shrewsbury go, I believe I was basing that on their Oxford Dictionary of National Biography articles, but I no longer have access to the ODNB, so I can't say for sure. My sense, though, is that when Rochester was "kicked upstairs" in 1684, it was Sunderland, rather than Godolphin, who took effective charge of the ministry, and also that Sunderland was the effective chief minister for most of the reign of James II - certainly so after Rochester's resignation. Although he was arguably an eminence grise type, I'm not sure it's reasonable to distinguish a "formal" ministry head from an informal one at that point. The whole position was informal. As for Shrewsbury, that's a bit more questionable, but my sense was that Shrewsbury was more of a figurehead for the ministry than Montagu, in that he was the one who dealt with the king personally, and essentially served as the intermediary between the king and the Junto proper. That may not be quite right, but I think it's at least as right as the idea that Montagu was head of the ministry. But I guess finding sources is what we should really be doing at this point. john k (talk) 20:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Let me add that I don't really think that First Lords of the Treasury (as opposed to Lord High Treasurers) were considered presumptive chief ministers until Walpole. Godolphin and Harley certainly were considered to be chief minister during their times as Lord Treasurer. But Poulett, who served as First Lord of the Treasury from 1710 to 1711, certainly was not. Neither was Godolphin during any of his stints as head of a treasury commission. john k (talk) 20:56, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

About http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:WhisperToMe&diff=cur

While I understand what was going on before, it feels strange to have a single page go against the MOS which is supposed to globally apply to all articles on EN. The usage of having "old" names be FN-GN and "new" ones be GN-FN happens in many places. The only reason why the prime minister list is so different is because, as you said, some of those figures are only a few years apart

Perhaps the solution is to say "People born after Meiji 1 have their family name last, people born before then have the family name first" - All of the figures have their dates of birth included, so people can tell via the birth year. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:13, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

While if I had to choose having them all in the same order, I would prefer them all to be GN-FN (after all the practice of name switching started in Meiji) - It may be a good idea to mention this on the MOS-JA talk page to see what others think too WhisperToMe (talk) 18:31, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 01:53, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

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See my proposal at Talk:Chinese emperors family tree (middle) to include distant (and prominent) ancestors of Tang emperors.Sonny Fin (talk) 02:11, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

Try to remodel it somehow to completely remove from the article List of acting heads of state section. I think its quite unnecessary now, when all officeholders (regular and acting) are part of their main lists. Also, put the pictures of acting officeholders to their place at main lists. Cheers! --Sundostund (talk) 15:24, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I just remodeled it myself, I hope you'll like it. It took quite a time to make it as it is now, I must say. --Sundostund (talk) 22:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

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I have completed the full family tree for the tang dynasty emperors, including all their ancestors dating back to Laozi (actually there are a few cadet branches I'd like to add like Li Bai's branch, but he is not a direct ancestor so that can wait). The problem is that the lines on the tree are skewed slightly to the left and therefore straight lines like the one from gaozu to taizong do not align properly, can you fix it? Talk:Chinese_emperors_family_tree_(middle)#tang_dynasty_family_tree.28incomplete.29 Mr reems 45kg (talk) 07:28, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Blimey, good effort. As far as I can see, the only way to fix this one is to cut the family tree in half (immediately above Gaozu). I'll have a go. BartBassist (talk) 02:18, 26 December 2012 (UTC)

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The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Genealogical relationships of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Bart, in looking through the talk archives I see you made a list which included an overview of each president (and was promptly reverted a day later - without much explanation). I strongly prefer your layout, and wondered if you ever thought of trying it again? Hoof Hearted (talk) 17:17, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

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