Talk:Apollo–Soyuz

This article currently contains the following:

The Americans also had their own concerns about Soviet spacecraft. Christopher C. Kraft, director of the Johnson Space Center, criticized the design of the Soyuz:

"We in NASA rely on redundant components — if an instrument fails during flight, our crews switch to another in an attempt to continue the mission. Each Soyuz component, however, is designed for a specific function; if one fails, the cosmonauts land as soon as possible. The Apollo vehicle also relied on astronaut piloting to a much greater extent than did the Soyuz machine."^[1]

I removed the last line because it's a criticism of the Apollo, not of the Soyuz. Editor BilCat claims that it is in fact a criticism of the Soyuz.

Reasons it is more likely a criticism of the Apollo:

• It's phrased as a limitation ("relied on astronaut piloting"). If it were being presented as a benefit, something like "allowed astronaut piloting" would be much more likely.
• In context in the source, Kraft criticizes the Soyuz, then has this mystery line, and then expresses an issue about both programs, making it likely that he's listing concerns about both of them in the paragraph.

This is an issue of likelihood--there isn't hard evidence either way. But that means we shouldn't be presenting it as criticism of the Soyuz. Dan Bloch (talk) 03:19, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

It's a criticism of the the Soyuz and the Soviets - because they were not competent of flexible enough to trust the pilots. Active piloting is superior to automatic "spam in a can" operations.

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NASA space-flown Apollo medallion for the Apollo–Soyuz mission. Apollo–Soyuz was the first crewed international space mission, carried out jointly by the United States and the Soviet Union in 1975. A United States Apollo capsule and a Soviet Union Soyuz capsule launched into orbit on July 15, and millions of people around the world watched on television two days later as the spacecraft docked and the two crews shook hands through the hatch. The project was a symbol of détente between the two superpowers during the Cold War, and it is generally considered to mark the end of the Space Race, which had begun in 1957 with the Soviet Union's launch of Sputnik 1. Credit: Robbins Company for NASA; photographed by Heritage Auctions Recently featured: Red wattlebird Dorothy Houston Jacobson St. Peter and Paul Cathedral, Brandenburg Archive More featured pictures

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The Lead currently contains the following sentence and supporting reference “...and it is generally considered to mark the end of the Space Race, which had begun in 1957 with the Soviet Union's launch of Sputnik 1.^[1]” The reference also contains the following quote “Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory. […] The formal end of the space race occurred with the 1975 joint Apollo–Soyuz mission, in which U.S. and Soviet spacecraft docked, or joined, in orbit while their crews visited one another's craft and performed joint scientific experiments.”. I attempted to delete or modify “Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory” , however both my edits has been reverted by BilCat. I believe the section about "American victory" is not relevant to this sentence and should be removed. I also note that the article does not mention "American victory" anywhere, it only appears in tbe quote. Finally the comment about "American victory" is controversal and I note that the Space Race lead states the following:

Kennedy's Moon landing goal was achieved in July 1969, with the flight of Apollo 11,^[2][3][4] a singular achievement considered by the Americans as overshadowing any combination of Soviet achievements that have been made. However, such an opinion is generally contentious, with others attributing the first man in space as being a much larger achievement.^[5]

In summary, I believe the quote "Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory" should be removed from this article. @BilCat:, can you explain why you reverted my edits? Ilenart626 (talk) 09:59, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not speaking for BillCat, but I basically agree with his reversions. Which Wikipedia pillar obliges us to avoid or remove controversial statements? We just have to observe WP:Verifiability and be careful to present controversy in a balanced, neutral way, and don't teach them. I believe you are pushing a POV, and Prof. Jennifer Frost is all wet: the contention that the first man in space is a greater achievement than landing men on the Moon, makes as much sense as saying the first caveman to crawl out of his cave and build the first shelter achieved more than the construction of the Eiffel Tower, or Empire State Building, or ... . And the "first woman in space achievement" would be the equivalent of the US stuffing Sally Field or Patty Duke into a Mercury capsule; at least either of these two girls I'm sure looked much better in a bikini than Valentina Tereshkova. Frost also can't have it both ways: she says the Space Race was essentially a military arms race, yet the USSR touted their "achievements" as scientific, technologogical, and humanitarian.

In complete historical context of the Space Race, the Moon landing achievement carries the due weight. And the Space Race wasn't over in 1975; it didn't end until the USSR was gone in 1991.JustinTime55 (talk) 16:50, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't see how we can use a source that includes the statement "Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory" to justify saying that Apollo-Soyuz is "generally considered to mark the end of the Space Race." -- Vaulter 16:43, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

That's actually a good catch; one doesn't have anything to do with the other. The US and USSR shaking hands just seems to make a feel-good, no=hard-feelings "end", but it didn't really end. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Actually, on second thought, when the Space Race ended is really out of scope for this subject, so maybe the National Security encyclopedia's opinion quote should really be striken as irrelevant? JustinTime55 (talk) 21:09, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

That's actually a good catch; one doesn't have anything to do with the other. The US and USSR shaking hands just seems to make a feel-good, no=hard-feelings "end", but it didn't really end. JustinTime55 (talk) 16:53, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Ok, can we agree to remove the quote "Most observers felt that the U.S. moon landing ended the space race with a decisive American victory" from this article? Or alternatively remove the existing reference and quote and find an alternative reference that supports Apollo-Soyuz is "generally considered to mark the end of the Space Race." Ilenart626 (talk) 20:54, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

For example, replace with this reference Apollo-Soyuz mission: When the space race ended Ilenart626 (talk) 21:05, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

No ... because it's still a matter of opinion. That source doesn't verify it's "generally considered" to be the end. What we have to decide is whether or not we want to mention at all in the Apollo-Soyuz article that some people (some smart-Alec will probably tag ^[who?]) consider it the end of the Race. When the Race ended of course is relevant to Space Race and should be carefully explained there. I'm thinking we should remove it here; it could even be considered a type of WP:POVFORK. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:42, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

@BilCat and Vaulter: I'm trying to get a consensus here, before I just rip out the reference to end of Space Race. What say you? JustinTime55 (talk) 21:51, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I concur the end of the space race is out of scope for this article, especially in the lead. BilCat (talk) 22:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree with removing “, and was considered by some to mark the end of the Space Race, which began with the Soviet Union's launch of Sputnik 1 in 1957” including removing the reference. Ilenart626 (talk) 01:31, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Should probably mention the extreme ultraviolet work by apollo. I have a source and will add when I have time.©Geni (talk) 19:20, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Added note that the 4 sources were HZ 43, FEIGE 24, proximi centuri and what NASA calls the Pavo object

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19780020078/downloads/19780020078.pdf

Another paper suggests that the Pavo object was HD 192273:

https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1978ApJ...219..585C

©Geni (talk) 21:39, 12 April 2023 (UTC)