Talk:Battle of Mucellium

I have included the recent question raised during the assessment in the Military History assessment here.

@LeChatiliers Pupper Couple of questions, Casualties and losses are given as "heavy", if only the Byzantine vanguard under John engaged are they really heavy? What do the sources specifically say? Secondly the article describes it as a coordination problem, was it really it sounds more like a morale shock / low confidence on the part of the forces other than Johns command? What do the sources say caused the loss? Feel free to ping me on the talk page. And not related or needed for a B-Class review; I had a look at wikimedia and I found this; Category:Totila - Wikimedia Commons Some portraits, woodprints etc might vary images between these articles or find more relevant ones that just repeating the coins. Also "Justinian demanded action from the Byzantine commanders stationed in Italy, due to their inaction following the murder of Gothic King Eraric" - might be worth explaining that Eraric had made peace under a vassalage agreement with the empire. Perhaps also clarify what exactly Justianian expected his commanders to do, stop raids? Take on Tortilla while he was weak / had isolated some goths via the murder presumably? I'm reading this article and feel a lot of things are very ambiguous and unclear. LeChatiliers Pupper (talk) 20:20, 30 November 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your constructive comments.

I seemed to me heavy given that the army routed, and Totila was able to capture many prisoners. But I do not have more info than that. I reverted to "Unknown" as in retrospect "Heavy" might be misleading.

On the battle yes it was a morale issue, but on the strategy level it was a coordination problem. Though these two often inter-depend each other. Note that I do not use the word "coordination" in the section "battle". Hughes describes the early successes of Totila mostly because of the Byzantines army in Italy being run by a committee. This is also apparent that despite the agreement on the strategy and the choice of someone attacking the Goths by lot, then the other commanders broke the agreement. Then John volunteered. This is not reflective of unified leadership command. Moreover, there was a problem of coordination in battle since the main army was too late in reaching the Goths. Anyhow, I removed the coordination in the Prelude to avoid confusion.

Hughes pp. 205-206 From this point onwards their actions showed the limitations of military campaigns run by committee. When Marcian, a citizen of the Veneti who was an imperialist at heart, offered to bribe a friend of his who was a guard at Verona, the Byzantine generals accepted. However, they decided that one of them needed to lead an advance party that would rush the gate and hold it until the main force arrived. None of them wanted to actually take part in such a risky venture. Eventually, Artabazes agreed to undertake the task. [...] Totila received news of the events at Verona and realised that the Byzantines were badly commanded, being led either by a committee or by a single commander with a divided command, rather than a gifted individual.

Justinian expectations, based on what I read so far it meant literally anything (from capturing a city to killing Goths in the open). I ~~added "and being paralyzed by internal dissensions" to clarify the position of the Goths~~ rewrote the the paragraph. I have included relevant quotes from secondary sources,

Hughes pp. 204-205 When news of the death of Eraric reached Justinian, he realized that during this period in which the Goths were paralysed by internal dissensions his generals in Italy had done nothing. He now sent a letter reprimanding them for their inactivity and demanding action. Accordingly, John the nephew of Vitalianus, along with Bessas and Vitalius all now travelled to Ravenna, meeting Constantianus and Alexander ‘Snips’, who were already there.
Bury pp. 229-230 Eraric's ambassadors seem to have been still at Constantinople when the news of his murder and Totila's accession arrived. Justinian was incensed at the supine conduct of his generals who had failed to take advantage of Eraric's incapacity, and his indignant messages at last forced them to a common enterprise.

All the pictures of Totilas that you showed are either at a much later stage of his life or being used in other articles. I fail to see the argument, but I replaced the coins with a portrait. Note that someone can make the argument of not being contemporary and thus misleading. Also, I think the issue of diverse figures exceeds B-class criteria. I will try to find a relevant map (that includes the name of the region) in the meantime. A.Cython (talk) 22:02, 30 November 2025 (UTC)

If you want to keep the coins please do I just wasnt sure if you were aware.

If you are aware and think the coins are best in this instance for good reasons thats fine. Often I find wikimedia isn't sorted or categorised so its easy for me to find things I would like!

Okay re Justinian's expectations that is fine.

I guess for B class at a minimum I feel the morale isnt as clear in the text as it could be, coordination obviously is a problem that the sources discuss but I also feel the article at least before the rewrite you made just repeated the word coordination a lot - at the least it feels like unenjoyable prose to read and worst and what I lean towards - I dont feel having read the article as clear about the battle as from your comments and the sources you provide.

And honestly I think now its better to read, but Im still confused.

On the losses, perhaps the losses are heavy, I wouldnt know, at least my gut feeling was that of the army as a whole maybe it suffered light losses only part of it properly engaged. Then there were losses in the pursuit after order broke down - my gut might be to list goth losses as light as you did and Byzantine as moderate. Obviously, if the sources talk about huge numbers of captives or later give numbers for remaining romans etc then my supposition is wrong.

All I have is this quote by Procopius (primary source) And many indeed perished in this flight, and as for the rest, all such as were saved continued their flight for many days although they were not pursued at all. A.Cython (talk) 23:27, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Separately, do the sources give an indication of the fighting ability of the Byzantine army after the battle? What immediately happened in the aftermath? Are towns lost or besieged? Are the byzantines able to contest these?, do federates change sides or desert etc

Procopius describes that went into nearby fortresses for protection and done nothing other than getting ready to be besieged by Totila, who left there and moved south to less well fortified cities. A.Cython (talk) 23:27, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

In the absence of numbers at least something like that in the aftermath section might be nice but often it depends what the sources tell us about, but what Im suggesting is that there might be relevant information in sources that discuss directly subsequent events.

Sure, but all we have is that "many indeed perished" by Procopius, which may be the only primary source but not necessarily the most reliable source as he was biased in favor of Belisarius. A.Cython (talk) 23:27, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

> Initially they cast a lot to chose who would lead the surprising attack. However, the other commanders were not willing to carry out the agreement and the results of the lot. John and his troops volunteered to lead the attack.

Here as well, why were the other commanders unwilling, did they think their troops unwilling to fight, untrained, disloyal, or did they not want to take a risk? Etc. Because later its their forces who flee.

See below.A.Cython (talk)

I guess overall in a few areas Im just left feeling that I dont understand why things are happening or did happen. Certainly nowhere near as clearly as in some other articles you have submitted.LeChatiliers Pupper (talk) 18:02, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

@LeChatiliers Pupper Last night I was not in a good mood partly of the tone of your first review and partly of other personal reasons. You made good comments on omissions that may have occurred as I tried to improve the article in haste since it was the last day of the drive. Also note that sources do not explain everything and my writing might need revisiting which is the purpose of reviewing/advise by someone else. All it needs is a friendly nudge and point to the right direction and I will do what I can to fix the error of my ways. Anyhow, I tried to rewrite the particular passage after reading Hughes book more carefully and I am still looking to find better sources.

Bury does not offer much of the details and tried to understand the translation of Procopius which in retrospect was a mistake. The first part that through me off was Now the lot fell out for John..." usually in English we say "the lot fall on" and second part was but the commanders were no longer willing to carry out the agreement. If the John had been chosen as the person doing the attack then what was the problem with the rest? It made more sense that by "lot fell out" meant John was not chosen but because out of hesitation/fear of other commanders, who did not wished to be the ones doing the attack (hence breaking the agreement), it fall on John to do attack with his own troops. Note that I had asked a native speaker whether this seemed reasonable and she agreed. However, now that I read more carefully Hughes, the above explanation is wrong, I apologize for this mistake. The disagreement, according to Hughes, was about each commander giving their best men for the attack.

Procopius Book VII.v [2-16]So they cast lots with this plan in view and awaited the decision of fortune in the matter. Now the lot fell out for John, but the commanders were no longer willing to carry out the agreement. Thus it was that John was compelled with his own troops alone to go in advance of the others and make an attack upon the enemy. But the barbarians, learning that their opponents were advancing upon them and being greatly terrified, decided to abandon the plain where they had established their camp, and in confusion ran to the top of a high hill which rises near by. And when the force of John arrived there, they too ran up against the enemy and opened the attack. But since the barbarians defended themselves vigorously, a violent struggle took place and many men on both sides, while making a remarkable display of heroism, were beginning to fall. Now though John had led a charge with loud shouting and tumult against the enemy opposite him, it so happened that one of his bodyguards was hit by a javelin thrown by one of the enemy and fell, as a result of this the Romans, now repulsed, began to retire to the rear.
By this time the remainder of the Roman army also had reached the plain, where they formed a phalanx and stood waiting. And if they had stood fast to give support to John’s troops, which were now in full flight, they could have advanced all together upon the enemy, and not only would they have defeated them in the battle, but they would have been able also to capture practically the whole force. But by some chance it so fell out that an untrue report was circulated through the Roman army to the effect that John had perished at the hand of one of his own bodyguards during the action then in progress. And when the report came to the commanders, they were no_ longer willing to hold their position, but they one and all began to retire in a disgraceful sort of retreat. For neither did they keep their troops in order, nor did they move off in any kind of groups, but each man for himself, just as he could, rushed off in headlong flight. And many indeed perished in this flight, and as for the rest, all such as were saved continued their flight for many days although they were not pursued at all. And some time afterwards they entered such strongholds as each one happened upon, and the report they carried to those they chanced to meet was only this, that John was dead. And consequently they were no longer in contact with each other, nor had they any purpose of uniting thereafter against the enemy, but each remained inside the circuit-wall of his own fort and began to prepare for a siege, fearing that the barbarians would come against him.

Hughes pp. 206–207 In this way, it was hoped, the Goths would be surprised and, when they were fully engaged, the Byzantine main body would arrive and the battle would end. The commanders decided to draw lots to decide who would lead the advance party, and John the nephew of Vitalianus won the dubious prize of going ahead of the main force. Unfortunately, the other commanders now refused to follow the plan. and give him their best troops. He was forced to go ahead leading only his own contingent of men. The Goths saw John and his men approaching and retreated to the top of a nearby hill. John led his men in an assault upon the position, but, outnumbered and downhill, they were forced back and then routed. As they ran, a rumour spread that John had been killed. When they reached the main body of troops, the rumour of John’s death spread and the entire army now fled, each of the commanders leading their troops to different towns and cities, as circumstances dictated. Once in position, they settled down and prepared to be besieged. They no longer had any thought of leaving their sanctuaries, or of uniting and fighting the Goths in open battle. John himself made his way to Rome.

Bury p. 230 The Roman army pursued them, and John with a chosen band pushed on to engage the enemy while the rest followed more slowly. The Goths, who had occupied a hill, rushed down upon John's troops. In the hot action which a false rumour ensued, spread that John had fallen, and the Romans retired to join the main which had not been drawn in order of army, yet up battle, and was easily infected with their panic. All the troops fled and the Goths their disgracefully, pursued advantage.

Syvänne pp. 247–248 According to Procopius, the Goths, learning of the approach of the Roman forces, decided to abandon the camp on the plain and to occupy a hill to gain the advantage of terrain. John and his men followed, charging impetuously up the hill all the while shouting loudly. When a javelin killed one of John’s bodyguards, the troops panicked because they believed their commander had been killed. The remainder of the army was deployed on the plain as a phalanx (presumably meaning two divisions), but failed to support the retreating troops because it was rumoured that John had been killed. Hearing this, the commanders joined in the headlong flight in the course of which Bessas was wounded by the pursuing enemy. The reason for the flight was simple. When the other commanders believed that the first line would not join the support line in the ensuing combat because it was leaderless (John survived but they did not know that), it was not wise to stay and fight. When the first line had been defeated, the success in cavalry battle depended upon the determination of the support forces to engage the pursuers.

If my changes were insufficient, please make the necessary changes. Thank you. A.Cython (talk) 23:14, 1 December 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Battle of Mucellium

Military History assessment

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