Talk:Bharat

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India

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Redirect page

Removed the {{WP India}} template. VasuVR (talk, contribs) 17:13, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I have restored the template as this article is currently a disambiguation page. Bharatiya29 19:55, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Origin

Name "Bharat" is derived first or "India" ?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.128.221 (talk • contribs) 16:47, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Bharata भरत versus Bhārata भारत

This page currently shows a distinction between these two. Could someone please confirm if the entries under these headings are in the correct place? Wiki-uk (talk) 16:37, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

WAY off

The term Bharat refers to the historical self-ascribed term for the Indian Subcontinent. The name for the Republic of India is only an extension of that. Anyone who knows anything about the historical (not modern nation-state) of India knows that. Hence the Mahabharata, to use one prominent example. This should redirect to here: Names_of_India#Bharata.

I did not redirect this out of respect for the note left in the code. If this is not discussed within a week, I will redirect it.

NittyG (talk) 06:24, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you that "Bharat" should not redirect to India. It didn't in the past, until someone changed it. The problem with redirecting to Names_of_India#Bharata is that people make come here looking for other "Bharat"s as well, and it's more confusing to leave hatnotes in sections than on top of articles. For now, I've redirected it to Bharat (disambiguation), which seemed a better idea (and is what Bharata also redirects to). Regards, Shreevatsa (talk) 07:07, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

That's at least better. It is common practice to redirect to the word's most popular meaning, or one that covers its derivations and related topics. The section Names_of_India#Bharata covers nearly the full topic - that it is a name, and it carries meaning by and for the people of the Indian Subcontinent. Perhaps there should be a separate article, since the subject is significant. Also, there could be something beneath the section title that says "disambiguation" or the like... I don't know if I've ever seen that as a common practice though. I'll accept this for now, but we should continue to discuss this a little. NittyG (talk) 21:56, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 30 January 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) — Amakuru (talk) 15:13, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Bharat → Bharat (disambiguation)Bharat (disambiguation) – Page is tagged as disambiguation page but current title does not fit MOS disambiguation format. The redirect is currently inverted. – Nickknack00 (talk) 19:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:40, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

The page is a disambiguation page and is at the correct title. When there is no WP:PRIMARY topic, the disambiguation page should be at the base title, and the page with '(disambiguation)' should be a redirect to that page (for intentional links per WP:INTDABLINK). -Niceguyedc ^{Go Huskies!} 20:07, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Niceguyedc is correct. There is nothing to discuss. older ≠ wiser 22:57, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Oppose @Nickknack00: it doesn't follow WP:MALPLACED , the proposed title becomes a MALPLACED problem -- 65.94.40.137 (talk) 05:31, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
What Niceguy and Bkonrad said; the set-up is already correct. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 06:28, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Oppose, per WP:MALPLACED. Moving this page would create the false impression that there is a primary topic occupying the title. bd2412 T 02:37, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, all. I clearly misunderstood the style format and withdraw the request!Nickknack00 (talk) 21:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bharath

Bharath is something that describes the Indian subcontinent. So Bharath should redirect to this page, and not to Bharath_(actor) Abesam (talk) 00:04, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Bharat Khand

Bharata Khanda (भारत खण्ड) or "Bharat Kshetra" (भारत क्षेत्र) is correct word for Indian Subcontinent.- Ganesh (talk) 12:05, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Redirect

This page should be redirected to India just like Nippon and Nihon redirects to Japan.

While for the existing page, we should create a Bharat (disambiguation).

None of the links here are explicitly about Bharat the old name for India. शिव साहिल/Shiv Sahil (talk) 16:45, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Support: There is no reason to not to move existing page Bharat back to Bharat (disambiguation) and redirect Bharat to India.

Bharat happens to be WP:OFFICIALNAME^[1] as well as clearly the Hindi name and WP:COMMONNAME for Republic of India that can cited through tonnes of news articles, books if needed.

And moreover, have a look at existing diambiguation page.

India-related terms

Bharata Khanda, the original Sanskrit name for the Indian subcontinent

Bhārat Gaṇarājya or simply "Bharat", for the Republic of India Bharata Mata (Mother India), the national personification of India as a mother

Bharat Ratna, India's highest civilian award Bharata Natyam, a classical dance form.

Businesses

BharatBenz, a truck and bus manufacture under Daimler

Bharat Earth Movers, a heavy equipment manufacturer

Bharat Electronics, a military electronics manufacturer Bharat Forge, a forging and engineering firm

Bharat Heavy Electricals, a power plant equipment manufacturer

Bharat Petroleum, an oil and gas company

Bharat Sanchar Nigam Limited, a telecommunications operator

People

Bharata Chakravartin, son of Rishabhanātha, the first Jain Tirthankara

Bharata (Mahabharata), a legendary monarch of ancient India, whose story is mentioned in the epic Mahabhārata

Bharata (Ramayana), son of Dasharatha, a character in the Ramayana

Bharath (actor), an Indian film actor, working predominantly in the Tamil film industry Bharata Muni, an Indian musicologist, author of the Natyashastra

Other uses

A name of the deity Agni Bhāratas, a Rigvedic tribe Bharat Rakshak, a defence-related website

Bharat Stage emission standards, established by the government of India

Bharath University, Chennai, Tamil Nadu, India

Bharat (film), a 2019 Hindi film

^^ There is barely any single term with name actually Bharat as a word on this page nor it holds a small para for its common name in lead. Hereby, actions need to be swift. This disambiguation page itself doesn't seem to be actually serving purpose of disambiguation of Bharat as of now. Pinging @Vaibhavafro:, @RaviC: and @Bharatiya29: to opine. @Bkonrad: for overview who has been surveilling article. Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 06:54, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Comment: Per an older move discussion, concerned WP:PRIMARY. However, the concern is more of WP:OFFICIALNAME and WP:COMMONNAME, we are not short of any primary source in an Indian language to confirm the name being in completely prevalent use for modern Indian Republic. English sources may not be doing that often as English name for Bharata is India (which also happens to have a historical context just like Bharat). But non of them refutes it either. Bharat is WP:PRIMARY topic for India. Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 07:03, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Please follow instructions at WP:RM to open discussion and establish consensus for this. Do NOT cut and paste the content as was done previously. older ≠ wiser 10:32, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Admitting that it was my bad. I happen to be a fairly new user and didn't even bother to read all the rules at that particular period. Aman Kumar Goel^(Talk) 13:38, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

(responding to ping) I also think that ‘Bharat’ should redirect to India.— Vaibhavafro ^💬 14:18, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

References

[1]
"Constitution of India - National Portal of India" (PDF). www.india.gov.in.

Requested move 28 February 2020

"Bhārat" listed at Redirects for discussion

"Bharat (place)" listed at Redirects for discussion

Bharat – Bharata

Bharata currently redirects here, which makes sense as the dab page disambiguates both Bharat and Bharata. I don't think this is a good idea. Sure, the two terms may be undistinguishable in many of the modern languages of northern India, but as far as English is concerned, the two have distinct sets of meanings. Bharata refers exclusively to ancient or mythical entities, while Bharat is more or less restricted to contemporary ones. Any thoughts? – Uanfala (talk) 00:46, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

So you are saying we should have a separate disambiguation page for Bharata? That is fine by me.

But how about the more serious distinction between Bharata and Bhārata (the former the name of the mythical ancestor, the latter his descendants and their derivates)? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:13, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

We could disambiguate these terms on separate pages too. But the difference is down solely to the presence of the diacritic (I don't imagine the terms to be used in contexts where aa for ā is common), and most readers don't use diacritics when searching on Wikipedia, so the dab page for Bharata should ideally also disambiguate Bhārata. The distinction can then be made within each entry, and I think that's more useful for readers than having two dabs cross-pointing to each other. – Uanfala (talk) 12:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

An alternative would be to split strictly along the lines of the original language bharata ~ bhārata – that would be philologically precise but probably not of much use to readers. Anyway, I've implemented the original split into Bharat (disambiguation) and Bharata. – Uanfala (talk) 00:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

However, I'm not sure the present dab page really is doing its job well. I've had a look at the Research:Wikipedia clickstream|clickstream data, and it appears that about almost a half of the readers landing on the dab page clicks on the link to Bharat right at the top, which takes them to India. But that's where a lot of those readers have actually come from, following the hatnote at the top. I suspect many of them click on "Bharat" expecting to be taken somewhere that explains the term, but instead they land right back where they started.
I'm not sure of the best possible solution; ideally, the dab can be expanded with a line or two about the name and then moved to the primary title Bharat, but this would need reversing the RM above. And if the primary topic is kept, then at least we could retarget Bharat to Names of India; surely that's going to be of more use to readers? – Uanfala (talk) 00:17, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps the new hatnote will help. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 06:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, this eliminates the loop, but we still have the underlying issue: most users of the redirect get landed on a page they weren't looking for. I'm trying to address that with the RM just below. – Uanfala (talk) 01:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 2 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: In this discussion, a majority of editors favored putting the dab page at the base name. This is supported by clickstream data showing that only one-fifth of people going to the dab page are looking for India, and other information showing that India may not be the primary topic in sources. Therefore I find consensus to move. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 03:53, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Bharat (disambiguation) → Bharat – Currently, Bharat is a redirect to India, and this is a result of the 2020 RM discussion. I propose to restore the state of affairs that obtained for the preceding decade: when the disambiguation page occupied the primary title.

The fact that India is the most significant topic to be referred to by the name is indisputable. However, I don't believe this is particularly relevant here as we're not concerned with the titling of our articles, but only with a redirect and a dab page. This, therefore, has no bearing on the topic structure and only affects links and reader searches, hence considerations of usage are paramount.

Where does a reader want to go when they search for "Bharat"? As established in this older discussion, they're unlikely to be seeking the article about the country. Everybody who's heard of the term "Bharat", including any Indian citizen who does not know English, is very well aware that the English name of the country is "India" – if they wanted the article about the country, they would have most likely searched directly. This conclusion is also borne out by the clickstream data. For January 2020 (the last full month before the RM), the link from the dab page to India was followed by just 22% of all readers. This is less than the link referrals for Bharata Khanda – an article that deals with the historic meaning of the term – which attracted 33% of readers (other significant targets include the film – 10%, and 6% each for the actor, the Mahabharata character and for Bharat Mata).

The incoming links paint a similar picture. There are 168 piped links with "Bharat" as the displayed text . By fat the most common targets of those links are the Ramayana character/deity, the film and the football club, with only 12 articles (barely 7%) where India was intended. – Uanfala (talk) 01:42, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Support though what we really need is an article on the word itself, and its various connotations. 02:50, 2 May 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnbod (talk • contribs)
- Yeah, an article can certainly be (re)created at Bharata (term) (which is currently a redirect to the relevant section Names for India#Bhārata). I tried to add a link to it, but was reverted several time, so I'll probably have to wait until the RM concludes. – Uanfala (talk) 13:48, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Support per nom. Good analysis! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:31, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Support per nom.--RegentsPark (comment) 14:00, 2 May 2021 (UTC)
Support per nom. Well done. @Uanfala:, if you wrote up a description of your thought process or procedure that led to this write-up, kind of as a how-to essay, I'd appreciate it—and so would others, I think. It's straightforward enough to follow after the fact, but I suspect there's more to it than that, or someone else might have have proposed this earlier. (Or, if a write-up exists already that you're aware of, please link it here.) Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:11, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Support Google only shows the film. Crouch, Swale (talk) 06:02, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Oppose The issue with usage seems to be clearly valid though absolute page name highlighting names of movies and other topics.

It is simply irrelevant whether Indians or non-Indians searching for term Bharat are aware about it being India's native name or not, given it being primary topic. Accessibility would just be an opinion hereby and that is why there was an RM to move it to India as well. Since, Bharat (disambiguation) too serves purpose for other terms quite well and a hatnote guiding to the disambiguation page too lies in India, I don't see it useful in anyway to mate redirect with disambiguation page again. Primary concern of Bharat which is either referring to India or a name of India. It by default should directly guide to either India or the Names of India or a new article just about term "Bharat", not a disambiguation list of ancient deities kings, movies, companies and personalities named Bharat. Dhawangupta (talk) 08:08, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Oppose per above and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 12:29, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:02, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Oppose It is well known that "Bharat means India". The current redirect needs to be preserved in line with consistency. Tessaracter (talk) 10:11, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

It is in India - trust me, few outside India know this. Consistency with what? Johnbod (talk) 02:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Oppose It is fine the way it is now. TheRollBoss001 (talk) 23:07, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
Support per nom. Everybody who's heard of the term "Bharat", including any Indian citizen who does not know English, is very well aware that the English name of the country is "India"—well put. feminist (+) 16:02, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
Support – disambiguation is better. Dicklyon (talk) 03:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Oppose Unless someone can find a more and clearly as common meaning of the term "Bharat" than it being a name for India, then only it would make sense, otherwise the move will violate WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Orientls (talk) 17:40, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
Oppose Bharat is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and remains a more common reference for India than any other topics listed in disambiguation page. Since Bharat (disambiguation) already exists without any problem, the motive of RM is unclear. Making the page disambiguation itself doesn't seem to serve any fruitfulness. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 18:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.