Talk:Banknotes of the pound sterling

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by nominator. Ordinarily this sort of withdrawal isn't permitted once "support" !votes have been cast, but this request has become such a hot mess of apparent sock votes and other acrimonious discussion and confusion, that it seems best to leave it for now, with no prejudice for a re-nomination in future. I'd recommend for a future RM, focusing the request on either Pound sterling along, or the banknotes/coins articles alone, as some people may support one of those moves and not the other, and it leaves it clearer.  — Amakuru (talk) 07:29, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• Banknotes of the pound sterling → Sterling banknotesSterling banknotes
• Coins of the pound sterling → Sterling coinage
• Pound sterling → Sterling (currency)Sterling (currency)

– I believe it would be more appropriate that this and related articles be at "Sterling banknotes". "Sterling coinage" and "Sterling" or potentially "Sterling (currency)" because in all but FOREX listings it is typically described as such. One refers to "sterling notes" or "sterling banknotes" when generally speaking of them, adding "pound/s sterling" if discussing a specific sum of money (although this too may sometimes be omitted when the amount described means it obviously refers to the pound unit, such as "millions in sterling" or "40 million sterling", omitting any problems one might encounter if one simply said "pounds"). As mentioned, the Bank of England often describes the currency as "sterling" with no unit specified. There are far more results for "sterling" when one searches the archives of the British Parliament than the specific term "pound sterling". According to Ngram the phrase "sterling notes" always produces more hits than "pound sterling notes". Ngram also produces many more more results for "sterling" than "pound sterling". Pound is at the top in that graph, but that could refer to any number of historic and circulating currencies so is not particularly helpful in narrowing down a currency name. Perhaps more useful is searching "prices in sterling" vs. "prices in pound sterling", apart from a spike in the early 1960s Ngram produces no recent results at all for "prices in pound sterling". Searching "prices in sterling" vs. "prices in pounds sterling" produces more recent hits for "prices in pounds sterling", but "prices in sterling" is still far ahead. If one switches the language to British English, the language of this article, the results tip even further in the direction of "sterling" alone.

AMMENDMENT: "Sterling (currency)" instead of "Sterling", have struck out the initial suggestion and settled on the second option.

• The Office for National Statistics, a major government body dealing with trade and economic statistics consistently uses either "sterling" or "the pound", but never both. It speaks of the "Sterling exchange rate", not the "Pound sterling exchange rate".
• The Bank of England, the Central Bank of the United Kingdom, routinely uses "sterling" without the "pound" unit moniker attached.
• NatWest describes the currency here as "the UK sterling currency"
• The UK government's own website calls the currency "sterling"
• Reuters uses either "sterling" or "the pound", but only rarely "the pound sterling".

According to WP:TITLEVAR topics closely linked to a specific English-speaking country should use that nation's variety of English rather than imposing a different term. In British English "sterling" is the WP:COMMON NAME as well as the official name of the currency. WP:IDONTLIKEIT or usage by non-British English sources is not a valid reason to object to the official name. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 15:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose (pound sterling → sterling at least). The common name is either "pound," "pound sterling" or "Great Britain pound." It most certainly is not "sterling." See BBC CNBC Financial Times Britannica. (In addition, there is no indication that the currency is the primary topic for sterling; see other uses at Sterling.) -- Vaulter 16:05, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

*:FOREX sources tend to use "pound sterling" because they are specifically measuring the strength of the pound unit against other currency units. CNBC and Britannica are American publications so their usage should be taken with a degree of caution. Earlier editions of Britannica used "Sterling (currency)". "Great Britain pound" is a backronym from the ISO code, not an actual name anybody would use, just like how CNY is not an abbreviation of the name of Mainland China's currency. Common terms used in banking and news about financial and business affairs are "non-sterling purchase fee", "sterling surplus", "sterling deficit", "sterling crisis", "sterling devaluation" etc. The Office for National Statistics refer to "Sterling exchange rates" not "pound sterling exchange rates", lending further creedance to "sterling". TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 16:32, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. OP does not argue that this is the primary topic here, and I am not convinced it is primary over Sterling silver. In the circumstances I think natural disambiguation is more appropriate. Per WP:CRITERIA I'd also argue that moving to sterling would make this article even less consistent with similar articles (which are mostly named in the form Ruritanian groat), and that sterling is significantly less recognisable than pound sterling to a worldwide audience. I'd note that much of the evidence presented by the OP does not demonstrate very much. For example, in this ngram search, it is literally impossible for there to be more references to "pound sterling" than to "sterling", because all references to "pound sterling" are also references to "sterling". I'd also note that it makes no sense to consider data all the way back to 1800 in this context. Kahastok talk 17:53, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

*:The model I am following is that of the Renminbi article. While "Chinese yuan" or "Renminbi yuan" would be more recognisable to a worldwide audience, it is not an accurate representation of the name of the currency. "Sterling (currency)" would be an acceptable compromise in my opinion. One of the reasons I support the primacy of "sterling" as a currency over that of sterling silver is that the silver grade is named after the currency, as it was the grade of silver British coins were struck in until the 20th century. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 19:23, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support Banknotes of the pound sterling → Sterling banknotesSterling banknotes and Coins of the pound sterling → Sterling coinage; oppose Pound sterling → Sterling
  • The name of the currency is sterling: that is the name that the Bank of Englnad uses [see citations at end of preceding section] and the name used in professional media such as The Economist.^[1] The Bank of England explicitly uses the phrase "sterling [bank]notes". So if it is good enough for the BoE, what reason short of WP:IDONTLIKEIT to continue to use any other term for the notes and coins. I see no reasonable WP:COMMON NAME argument here. In this case, the current name should be the redirect article.
  • On the other hand, the current article is not just about the currency in the abstract; it also about the pound (the unit) in particular. Indeed it is probably more about the pound than it is about sterling. It is the primary topic in this case. Let it stand.

  --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

*:There is a solution, by using the disambiguation "Sterling (currency)", as it was listed in the 1911 Britannica, I consider this an acceptable middle ground and I would be prepared to help produce a section or subsection on the "pound" specifically. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 19:15, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose all "Pound" is WP:COMMONNAME and should be included in these titles. Obviously "sterling" would have higher ngram results than "pound sterling" since it also has broader uses for silver and many, many others. "prices in sterling" is likewise an odd phrase to search exactly. "pound notes" is much more common than either term you searched for, and these are probably not results for the Egyptian pound... Reywas92^Talk 14:44, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

*:I would however like to draw attention to WP:TITLEVAR: If a topic has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation, the title of its article should use that nation's variety of English (for example, compare Australian Defence Force with United States Secretary of Defense). "Pound sterling" appears to be a compromise compound name originating in American English. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 15:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Unsourced speculation where the name originates, but it's commonly used in UK government websites . Reywas92^Talk 16:10, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

  Sterling exchange rate produces almost 3,000 results.

  Pound sterling exchange rate produces only 9.

  "In sterling" produces 71,600 results.

  "In pounds sterling" produces only 9,670 results. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 16:18, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose all per WP:COMMONNAME. 68.43.231.28 (talk) 15:30, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

  Would you also advocate for Renminbi to be at Chinese yuan for that same reason? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 15:34, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose all. MOS:RETAIN everything at Pound Sterling. You'll only turn Wiki UK into a pariah with Sterling (ambiguous word). Summarizing the most important points:

1. Pound sterling is a concrete idea as both the currency & the unit. While sterling is an ambiguous concept with three possible meanings - horrible introductory word to readers to describe British currency since it could mean (a) British currency, or (b) high-grade sterling silver or (c) The ancient English currency c 800 that's the namesake of both a, b.

2. Web-search "What is British currency?" and Wiki UK's answer sterling will stick out like a headless chicken. Almost all online searches and references will say it is primarily Pound sterling! and secondary British pound. Web-search simply demands that Wiki UK conforms and not present a headless chicken.

3. Nearly all foreigners know British currency as the pound! Silly to suggest even more new concoctions like sterling (currency) when simple elegant pound sterling mentions its most famous name (pound) plus the currency name (sterling).

4. Also, China's renminbi-yuan is not analogous to sterling-pound. The renminbi name existed right at inception to mean China's post-1949 currency, practically copyrighted. While sterling is a 1,000-year old non-copyright word with one historic meaning (the old coin) and two modern meanings (the sterling silver, or the British currency). Lotsa British stuffs never came from written constitutions (unlike the renminbi law) so stop acting like 'sterling' is in a codified book for you to throw at your hopelessly confused audience.

5. The word sterling never appears on Britain's most prominent circulating media - BoE notes & UK coins. And hey it aint our problem! BoE says I promise to pay the bearer XX pounds. The banknote is the most basic contract between BOE & the user. And sterling aint written in our agreement. Our covenant says (repeat after me) POUNDS. No wonder Brits & all foreigners call it POUNDS & not sterlings - still a good idea to chop off the very word people can still read in BoE notes?

6. This particular website says Pound Sterling already functions as UK currency name in the contemporary sense. Highlights below: http://www.differencebetween.net/business/finance-business-2/difference-between-pound-and-sterling/

• Everyone is familiar with the currency of the United Kingdom, more commonly known as the pound. Sometimes, however, the word sterling is used to describe the UK currency.
• The British pound is a type of currency... The pound sterling, generally shortened to just pound, is the certified currency of the United Kingdom (and other territories)
• The financial term for British pound is pound sterling (abbreviated to stg.).
• In formal contexts, the full, official name is used – pound sterling (plural: pounds sterling)
• Pound sterling is also used when there is a need to distinguish the currency of the United Kingdom from that of other countries using (pound) currency, eg Egypt, Lebanon, etc.
• Sterling (shortened to ster. or stg.) is used when pound sterling is abbreviated. It is the financial term used to stand for the currency...
• There really is no right or wrong usage of the words “pound” and “sterling.”. UK currency is better known as “pound”. While “sterling” is used in the financial market.

7. From a coding perspective "Banknotes+Coins of the (currency name)" is the way to go. A yet more superior format is "Banknotes of the (country)(currency)" = "Banknotes of the British Pound" but nope Pound Sterling is good enough.

8. Finally, this proposal amounts to little more than historical fetish of little consequence to modern life. The historical should not be an obstruction to the contemporary.

We have already received comments opposing to this change in Talk:Banknotes of the pound sterling#Page Move And I'm now I see this silly seesaw of "pounders" editing to "pound sterling" only for "sterlingers" to revert it. Let's put it to an end, acknowledge that sterling could be a tragic mistake in Wiki intros, and accept the most pragmatic, least controversial word - simple beautiful POUND STERLING. Thanks and vote Oppose. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:07, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

So the Bank of England, the British Government, the Bank of Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland, the Ulster Bank, George Soros etc etc are wrong and you are right. Well that settles that then. The articles Sterling crisis and Sterling area clearly need to be renamed to suit your greater knowlege.

Yes, the common name is "pound sterling" and that RtM is dead in the water.

But the only valid member of "banknotes of the pound sterling" are the £1 notes issued by the BoE and the banks in Scotland and (Northern) Ireland. The £5, £10 etc are not. The only valid members of "coinage of the pound sterling" are the two editions of the One pound (British coin); the 1p–50p coins are not. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:27, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Your 1st par is clearly a mischaracterization of above point (6) "There really is no right or wrong usage of the words “pound” and “sterling.”." It's self-evident to all readers. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:32, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The citation you offered is not a dedicated source for anything, it is a general use site which is not a legitimate source as it is pulled together from other sources.
Your obsession with "pound" and apparent total aversion toward "sterling" is unsettling, particularly when the British Government, the Bank of England etc. etc. all regard "sterling" as the currency's name. The "pound sterling" is a UNIT of the currency. I have no idea why Renminbi gets a free pass in your book. Surely as the oldest circulating currency sterling ought to have sufficient established credentials to stand on its own without having to fall back on the practices of the popular press.
WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Woe your words apparent total aversion toward "sterling" is unsettling also counts as WP:IDONTLIKEIT, no? Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:46, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Expressing a disagreement with an argument is not the same thing as disagreeing with well sourced citations just because it is an exception to practices you think ought to be considered iron-cast rules. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 20:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

• Support all. The precedent set by Renminbi suggests WP:OFFICIAL should override WP:COMMONNAME in this case.88.144.12.208 (talk) 02:50, 30 June 2022 (UTC) — 88.144.12.208 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support all. The use of Sterling is in line with reputable and reliable English-language sources. The official usage ought to take precedence over colloquial usage. Use of pound sterling is functionally not different from using pence sterling or penny sterling. There are contexts where this is appropriate, but in my opinion it is not appropriate as a term for referring broadly to the currency itself. 2600:1700:1961:AC00:157E:3EC4:901A:BE9E (talk) 03:09, 30 June 2022 (UTC) — 2600:1700:1961:AC00:157E:3EC4:901A:BE9E (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Support all. Given clear context for the sole term Sterling in most monetary discussion, and evidence of official reference in this manner, Pound Sterling should be considered at best a common alternative name but not the primary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vulpelibrorum (talk • contribs) 03:33, 30 June 2022 (UTC) — Vulpelibrorum (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Commentators disqualified for making their first and only comment in this survey as per contributor records.

2600:1700:1961:AC00:157E:3EC4:901A:BE9E https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/2600:1700:1961:AC00:157E:3EC4:901A:BE9E

88.144.12.208 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/88.144.12.208

Vulpelibrorum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Vulpelibrorum Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 03:37, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

According to WP:RMCOMMENT all editors are welcome to comment. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 03:43, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

To be approved by consensus of all editors existent before survey date 28 June 2022. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 03:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to this? I certainly cannot see it anywhere. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 03:56, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

See WP:SPA. X-750 _{Rust In Peace... Polaris} 04:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Posted in Pound Sterling wiki: Dictionary definitions of Sterling and Pound Sterling Talk:Pound_sterling#Dictionary_definitions_of_Sterling_and_Pound_Sterling

These dictionary definitions are provided for the final rewrite of article "Pound sterling" and they all agree:

• Sterling is NOT THE MONEY of the UK. Sterling is the MONEY SYSTEM of the UK - a mere pointer to consult the rules, denominations, coins & notes. And what do the rules say?
• Cambridge: Pound sterling = money used in the UK. Also: pound = money used in the UK. And finally, pound = unit of money used in the UK
• Oxford: Pound sterling = unit of money in the UK. Pound = unit of money in the UK. Sterling means "system of UK money" and not "UK money".
• Sterling = UK money is an obsolete and deprecated definition. Maybe true for the original sterling silver 1d (penny). But not for all other coins. And already struck out of dictionary definitions! So why use this as Wikipedia definition?

So let's review:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/pound-sterling

• Pound sterling: the official name of the pound used as money in the U.K.
  • 2nd half of sentence: Pound is the money used in the UK
  • 1st half of sentence: Pound sterling is official name of the pound, making it also the money used in the UK.

• Pound: the standard unit of money used in the U.K. and some other countries
  • Hence Pound is also the standard unit of money used in the UK (pound is the money & the unit)

• Sterling: the British system of currency, based on the pound
  • Ayyy, Cambridge does not define sterling as the British money! Sterling is merely the SYSTEM OF CURRENCY - the structure of rules on what's lawful, what's your coins, your notes, your units. Sterling is a mere pointer that says "consult the rules". And what do the rules say? See above
  • Officially: The pound sterling is the money used in the UK
  • Colloquially: The pound is the money used in the UK
  • So Cambridge never said sterling is British money. It only said pound sterling is the money used in the UK

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/pound_1?q=pound+sterling

• Pound sterling: (specialist term for) the unit of money in the UK
• Pound: the unit of money in the UK
• Sterling: the money system of the UK, based on the pound

• • Ouch so Oxford also never said sterling is UK money! Only that sterling is UK money system i.e. sterling means "consult the law on British money".
  • And what does the law say? The pound sterling is the unit of money in the UK.

Other dictionaries agree:

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/pound-sterling

• Pound sterling: the official name for the standard monetary unit of the United Kingdom
• Pound: the unit of money which is used in Britain.
• Sterling: the money system of Great Britain.

https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/pound-sterling

• Pound Sterling and 'GBP' each means the official currency of the United Kingdom
• Pound Sterling means the lawful money of the United Kingdom.

Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 03:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

"Pay in sterling"

• Pre-1816: pay in sterling silver coins from pennies to crowns
• Post-1816: sorry the money system is now gold. "Pay in sterling" therefore means "pay according to the rules & the monetary system". "Sterling" now assumes the dictionary meaning "according to the monetary system of the UK" and deprecating the original meaning. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:02, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

If "sterling" is so "obsolete and depreciated" how come the Office for National Statistics and the Bank of England use it? Are you suggesting you have superior understanding to the government and the central bank? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 04:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

To be consulted with other editors (minus the three new ones). But dictionaries are WP:RS widely recognized by all, then clearly sterling means 'the money system'. And we will NOT write Wikipedia with a dictionary-conflicting definition! 'Sterling' everywhere means

• according to UK law' whenever you read it. Or
• an abbreviation of 'Pound sterling', which is UK money according to dictionaries Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:15, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

_{Whether those editors contributions are to be considered is not your decision to make. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 04:19, 30 June 2022 (UTC)}

We will all be approving a dictionary definition of Pound Sterling very soon! Yeah! See you at the finish line! Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:33, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I can smell a decisive irrefutable WP:CON victory! Mwahhh! Please be happy for me and my pound sterlings (oops pounds sterlings lol) Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 05:05, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

• SHUT DOWN this RFC - I'm quite concerned about a number of newbies showing up, suddenly. GoodDay (talk) 04:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

  Thanks, I'm keeping records and screenshots on everything now. I'm new here so are you familiar how you or a third-party can shut down this RFC? Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

  I'd recommend contacting WP:AN & ask an administrator to shut it down. GoodDay (talk) 04:52, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

  Done - thanks! Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 04:58, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I am withdrawing this move request for the time being. I may wish to open it up again at a later date, but clearly the situation is far too volatile with too much bad blood to continue.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 05:22, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@TheCurrencyGuy With you caught redhanded with sockpuppetry Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Sockpuppetry_-_developing_story you will NEVER get the opportunity for any major Wikipedia edits!

MOTION TO CLOSE - consensus reached is REJECTED with no name change to all proposed sites Pound sterling Banknotes of the pound sterling Coins of the pound sterling I'll give this 1/2 day for all to see before we act on it. Closing moves to commence 18:00 UTC. Thank you. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 05:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Stop acting as if you are an administrator. You seem intent on waging an all out war with me. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 05:54, 30 June 2022 (UTC)