Talk:Dexaroi

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Dexari

The only thing that we know of the Chaonian Dexari is this single mention in historical sources, from Stephanus of Byzantium (Ethnica) who cites Hecataeus of Miletus: Δέξαροι, ἔθνος Χαόνων, τοῖς Ἐγχελέαις προσεχεῖς, Ἑκαταῖος Εὐρώπῃ. ὑπὸ Ἄμυρον ὄρος οἰκοῦν. Stephanus clearly distinguishes the Chaonian Dexari from the Illyrian Dassareti, listing also the Dassareti that were described by Polybius as a completely different tribe: Δασσαρῆται, ἔθνος Ἰλλυρίας, Πολύβιος ὀγδόῳ. καὶ τὸ θηλυκὸν Δασσαρῆτις. λέγονται καὶ Δασσαρηνοί καὶ Δασσαρήτιοι καὶ Δασσαρητῖνος. The content of this article is based on the speculative equation of the Chaonian Dexari with the Illyrian Dassareti. The uncertain hypothetical link should be presented as such, not as a historical fact. – Βατο (talk) 13:33, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't not allow this kind of disruptive wp:CHERRY of primary sources. Off course several ancient authors such as Strabo and Liby have declared that they were Epirotes and the most important is that a mountain of modern sources accept this equation as a fact. Experienced editors need to follow wp:RS and there is not a single source that objects the connection Dexari-Dassaretae.Alexikoua (talk) 15:02, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
The Chaonian Dexari are documented only in the above mentioned passage recorded by Stephanus. The Dassareti are mentioned several times, always as an Illyrian tribe. Your statement "several ancient authors such as Strabo and Liby have declared that they were Epirotes" is original research, the Dassaret- are never mentioned as an Epirote tribe in ancient sources. Also this "a mountain of modern sources accept this equation as a fact" is not correct, that equation is just a modern conjecture because they are attested to have lived in two completely different periods: Dexari in the 6th century BC, Dassaret- three centuries later. A recent publication about that uncertain hypothetical connection: Kaljanac, Adnan (2010). Juzbašić, Dževad; Katičić, Radoslav; Kurtović, Esad; Govedarica, Blagoje (eds.). "Legenda o Kadmu i problem porijekla Enhelejaca" (PDF). Godišnjak/Jahrbuch. 39. Sarajevo: Akademija Nauka i Umjetnosti Bosne i Hercegovine: 53–79. ISSN 2232-7770., p. 56: "Najstariji podaci o Enhelejcima su sačuvani upravo u svjedočanstvu Hekateja, što se očuvalo u djelu Stefana Bizantinca, o Deksarima, haonskom narodu: „Deksari, haonski narod, susjedi Enhelejaca, kako piše Hekatej u opisu Evrope. Stanuje pod gorom Amirom“. Da li su Deksari u stvari Dasareti i da li je gora Amir Tomor u Dasaretidi, o čemu je govorio R. Katičić i danas predstavlja značajno i nedovoljno odgovoreno pitanje. Najviše što se može pretpostaviti u vezi područja rasprostiranja sa određenim stepenom sigurnosti jest mogućnost da su nosioci ohridske kulture iz Trebeništa bili Enhelejci." [The oldest information about the Enchelei is preserved in the testimony of Hecataeus, which is preserved in the work of Stephanus of Byzantium, about the Dexari, a Chaonian tribe: "Dexari, a Chaonian tribe, they live under Mount Amyron". Whether the Dexari are in fact Dassareti and whether Mount Amyron Tomor is in Dassaretia, of which R. Katičić spoke about, still represents a significant and insufficiently answered question. The most that can be assumed about the area of distribution, with some degree of certainty, is the possibility that the bearers of the Ohrid culture from Trebenište were Enchelei.] Furthermore, the Dassareti are considered by current scholars as the tribe of the first attested Illyrian king: Bardylis. You should understand that Wikipedia articles can't present modern uncertain hypotheses as historical facts. – Βατο (talk) 16:35, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
In which language is the original text written by the way? Katicic is a well known author of the 70s-80s though his work can be considered wp:OUTDATED in this fashion [][]. There is off course a minority view (especially in non-English, non-mainstream bibliography) I can't object that. Alexikoua (talk) 22:06, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
The author is not Katičić, he is one of the editors. It is not "a minority view", it highlights that there is no sufficient historical data to make that uncertain hypothetical equation, since the Chaonian Dexari are mentioned solely by Stephanus citing Hecataeus, while the Illyrian Dassareti are mentioned several times, but in the Roman era, three centuries later, and in completely different contexts. Please, do not label "non-mainstream bibliography" a source which is published under an editorial board that includes renowned scholars, it is inappropriate. You can't consider a 2010 publication an oudtated source, it has been published two decades after the works of the scholars that are included in the current version of the article to support that hypothetical equation. – Βατο (talk) 23:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
It appears that this significant and insufficiently answered question has been already answered by top graded historians.Alexikoua (talk) 23:20, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
If I'm wrong this paper states that the Enchelae can be indentified (?) as Dassaretae U strukturu ove legende i odnosu ova dva područ-ja su čvrsto integrirani i Enhelejci, narod koji se prema riječima Strabona može poistovijetiti sa dobro poznatim Dasaretima. while their origin is traced back to Beotia. Correct? Alexikoua (talk) 23:30, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It remains an uncertain hypothetical link as per the lack of historical data. Wikipedia articles can't present modern conjectures unattested in primary sources as historical facts. – Βατο (talk) 23:32, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
The identification of Dassareti with Enchele is not relevant for this discussion, stay on topic, please – Βατο (talk) 23:34, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Actually you are slightly out of topic. I don't really understand your argument here: 1. the Enchelaean origin is from central Greece 2. they were absorbed by the Dassareti (or Dassaretae?) 3. the source you provided (if the translation is correct) can not answer the question of the Dexari in conncection to the Dassareti that absorbed the Ecnhelae whose origin is found in Boiotia. It comes nothing useful just riddles.Alexikoua (talk) 09:36, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

If you missed it, the rilevant part to this discussion is: Whether the Dexari are in fact Dassareti still represents a significant and insufficiently answered question. Who is out of topic? You are now commenting about the WP:TALKOFFTOPIC origins of the Enchele and the equation of their tribal name with that of the Illyrian Dassareti by Strabo. Stay on topic, please. The article should present historical facts as such and modern conjectures as such, the current version wrongly leads readers to believe that Dexari existed in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, while they disappeared after Hecataeus (6th century BC) and the attested facts of the Roman period that you included actually concern the Illyrian Dassareti, including the title "Dassaretae". – Βατο (talk) 10:05, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

You are recycling the same arguments as in the previous discussion here: Talk:Dassaretae#New_section but they have been addressed. The 6th-3rd century gap applies to both Taulatians-Dexari/Dassaretae per Weber. In Greek language its phonetically the same word with the addition of the suffix (see Weber & Hammond). The ξ -> σσ transformation is a typical rule when comparing archaic era vs classical/koine era authors.Alexikoua (talk) 10:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Weber (1989, original year: 1983) actually states that the Illyrian Dassaret-, like the Illyrian Taulanti first appear in a fragment of Hecataeus. He also states that the ξ is the phonetic equivalent of ss, so Hecataeus' Δεξάροι is the equivalent of Δεσσάροι, which has a stem identical to Dassaretae The stem he is talking about is Illyrian, you can see it here Dassaretii#Etymology. Although the two names stem from the same root, there is not certainity about the equation of the tribes Dexari with Dassareti, as stated by Juzbašić (2010). They lived in completely different periods, and most probably in different places (about the Dexari we only know that they lived under Mount Amyron). The link is a modern hypothesis proposed by some older sources, which still remains unverified. – Βατο (talk) 10:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Alexikoua, can you provide the entry of the Oxford Classical Dictionary (2012) that reports this statement The name 'Dexaroi' is obviously his form of 'Dassaretai, after whom the area was called Dassaretis., please? – Βατο (talk) 11:13, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Never mind, I noticed it is from Hammond's chapter "Illyrian and Epirotic tribes" p. 265 in CAH 1982. – Βατο (talk) 11:40, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Keramopoulos says that this sounds to be connected with διος-ορείται with a specific degree of barbarisation so a partial non-Greek root/influence in this is not objected.Alexikoua (talk) 11:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
I removed the 1953 source as per WP:AGEMATTERS, that uncertain etymology is not discussed in more recent publications. – Βατο (talk) 11:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
It seems that it's mentioned in Hadeli 2020. As such I'm adding it back under this context.Alexikoua (talk) 08:46, 3 November 2021 (UTC)
Really, why don't you begin with Krahe here []? Theres a mountain to delete. The specific author (Keramopoulos) as I've said is among most well known in linguistics on the field of ancient Macedon.Alexikoua (talk) 12:12, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
You should provide more recent bibliography, a 1953 source is very old and is to be removed as per WP:AGEMATTERS. The tribal names Dassaret- and Dexar- are not considered to be related to Διός όρος-ορείται "Mountain of Zeus". That etymology is unreliable, also on phonetic grounds. About Krahe, nobody objects the removal of his suggestions if they contrast with more recent publications, because his works are old as well. – Βατο (talk) 12:35, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
That's wp:OR you know it. You need to provide a citation about this. The tribal names Dassaret- and Dexar- are not considered to be related to Διός όρος-ορείται "Mountain of Zeus". That etymology is unreliable, also on phonetic grounds. [citation needed].Alexikoua (talk) 16:34, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
I removed Šašel Kos because in those quotes she is not commenting on the Chaonian Dexari. – Βατο (talk) 19:38, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
@Alexikoua: do not add content that is not directly related to the Chaonian tribe, please. Sasel Kos is not commenting on the Chaonian tribe in those quotes, hence I removed them. Furthermore, Hatzopoulos too is not referring to the Chaonian tribe, this scholar was one of the first to support Bardylis' affiliation with Dassareti. The outdated 1953 source should be removed since a more recent source is included about the widely accepted etymology by linguists. – Βατο (talk) 23:48, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
I fail to see such a rule in wikipedia especially in the case when a more recent source is not certain about the specific etymology. As I've stated you cited Krahe extensively in Albanian mythology though much more outdated and in several cases ignored by more recent bilbiography (Zeus Parthinus claim etc.). The Dassaretae were an independent community though they were initially part of the Chaonian state, that's cited. Hatzopoulos refers to the hellenistic era.Alexikoua (talk) 11:49, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
The Dassaretae were an independent community though they were initially part of the Chaonian state is Hammond's speculation. About Krahe, you are free to remove his suggestions in other articles if they contrast with more recent sources. The 1953 source that provides the etymology "Mountain of Zeus" trying to relate Dassaretai with Dios oros-oreitai, should be removed as per WP:AGEMATTERS, and because it goes against the relation of the tribal names Dexar- and Dessar-/Dassar-, it's also offtopic for that reason. – Βατο (talk) 12:08, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
I fail to see the word 'speculation' that's actually a statement based on historic evidence. There can't be a removal per wp:AGEMATTERS since Keramopoulos is a well known academic on the field while the Dexar-/ Dessar-/Dassar- ξ/σ transformation is a phonetic rule in terms of archaic vs classical era phonetics. If have have read Thucicides you can understand that this is a very common feature in Ancient Greek.Alexikoua (talk) 12:43, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
is a well known academic on the field is not a good reason for the inclusion of a 1953 publication (70 years old) in Wikipedia article, on the contrary WP:AGEMATTERS is a good reason for removal of that outdated source. – Βατο (talk) 13:09, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Keramopoulos suggestion is not rejected by more recent scholarship though various diferrent reconstructions and connections have been proposed.Alexikoua (talk) 06:50, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Hmmm you understand that overemphasizing on primary sources constituted POV.Alexikoua (talk) 10:51, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
I am listing here all the problematic content you restored with this edit: , do not restore it because it is not constructive:
  • Dassaretae initially recorded as Dexari were the northernmost subtribe (Greek: έθνος ethnos) of the Chaonians, based on the testimony of the ancient Greek geographer Hecataeus of Miletus is WP:POV because this hypothesis is not accepted by many scholars as a fact, hence it should be presented as such;
  • He describes them as the most northern tribe of the Chaonians, as a Greek-speaking people is WP:OR and unreliable, because Hecataeus, cited by Stephanus, does not provide that description;
  • since the x (ξ) is the phonetic equivalent of ss (σσ) in ancient Greek literature. is WP:OR;
  • The name Dexari retains more archaic features compared to Dassaretae in Greek spelling is WP:OR;
  • which is accepted by the modern scholars Hammond, Wilkes and R.J. Weber; Weber support something else, as included in the neutral version;
  • It appears that the chief magistrate of the Dassaretae bore the title "Strategos", a title typically given to the chief magistrates of northern Greek tribes during Roman antiquity.[14] As for their administrative structure an inscription of the Dassaretae epigrammatically lists the main organs of their state Δασσαρητίων άρχοντες, βουλή και δήμος (The archons, the boule and the demos of the Dassaretae).[15] is information that concerns the Illyrian Dassareti, Hatzopoulos does not mention the Chaonian tribe. He is one of the first scholars who supported Illyrian king Bardylis' affiliation with Dassareti;
  • It has been also argued that a similar spelling is shared in the names of two Illyrian tribes (Dassaretae/-ii and Dassarensis)., Weber does not suggest it, he states that two Illyrian tribes existed: Dassaretae (with all the other spellings) and Daesitiates.
Furthermore, with that edit you removed the content supported by Toynbee: Toynbee has argued that the mention of the Chaonian Dexaroi is evidence that the Chaones had been Illyrian-speakers originally, since the name 'Dexaroi' appears to be a variant of the name Dassaretioi of an Illyrian people Why? About the primary sources, I did not use them, I used secondary reliable sources that provide information and analyses about the primary sources. – Βατο (talk) 12:08, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
The section "In Greek mythology" includes Appian's mythological tradition that describes the Illyrian tribe, I added the tag {{Synthesis}}. That section should be removed because it is unrelated to this article. – Βατο (talk) 13:45, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Your edits which I undid made the article a fork of Dassaretii. Where did you come up with the weasel-word "solely"? And Katicic is controversial and his work has been criticized. Khirurg (talk) 16:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Please, do not edit war ignoring all the problematic content I listed above. Furthermore you removed relevant content supported by many sources, including Toynbee, Weber, Šašel Kos, Katičić and Kaljanac. That is not constructive. – Βατο (talk) 16:53, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Dexari is a term that is attested only once in literature. That should be made clear to readers. I think that the bigger problem of the article - whichever version ends up as WP:STABLE - is that it is a fork of Dassareti because most of it involves events linked to the Dassaretii under a narrative of Dexari=Dassaratae=Chaonians=ancient Greeks. Too much of the article presupposes high conditional probability across multiple theories.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:37, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Side comment:5 readers/day (excluding editors) - reality check before this escalates to a grand dispute.--Maleschreiber (talk) 17:42, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
It's always funny you bring that up, as if it only applies to those disagreeing with you, buy not yourself. Khirurg (talk) 20:49, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
There is even an entire section dedicated to the mythological tradition recorded by Appian, which clearly concerns the Illyrian tribe. That should be removed because it is completely unrelated to the topic of this article. Also the speculative narrative about Bardylis as a Dardanian king has been recently dismissed, it should be fixed as well. – Βατο (talk) 17:51, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Also this information is completely unrelated to this article: Various Illyrian tribes were located in the area north of the Dassaretae, in the region north of the mines of Damastion. Šašel Kos states "mines of Damastum in the region of the Dassaretes", not commenting on the Chaonian tribe. – Βατο (talk) 18:21, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm not prepared to accept qualifying the Cambridge-educated Hammond as "according to Hammond", but having the controversial, primordialist, and essentialist Katicic in wikipedia voice. Absolutely no way. Khirurg (talk) 20:50, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Also, we're not going to have Toynbee from 1969 describe the Chaonians as "Illyrian-speaking", when that contradicts all modern scholarship. Khirurg (talk) 20:54, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
I have placed both Hammond and Katičić without wikivoice. And I removed the "Northern Epirus" template. I don't think that a template about modern Greek nationalist narratives has a place in what this article discusses. Whichever WP:STABLE is agreed, it should be made clear that the name Dexari in literature of antiquity is attested once. Its relation to a Dassaratae/Dassaretii is a subject of discussion and diverging narratives.--Maleschreiber (talk) 00:22, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Side comment: Toynbee (1969) - of the same cultural-historical period as Hammond - is used at Atintanians in support of the Greek etymology of the name. By comparison, Keramopoullos (1953) puts forward a fringe "etymology" which isn't discussed in contemporary bibliography and is the first theory which should be removed in terms of WP:AGEMATTERS.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:05, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
Keramopoullos (1953) is outdated and provides an unreliable etymology that is not taken into consideration by linguists in more recent publications. In another discussion Alexikoua dismissed a 1954 source, it obviously should be applied here with a 1953 source as well. – Βατο (talk) 01:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
These parts are unrelated to the topic of this article:
  • "It appears that the chief magistrate of the Dassaretae bore the title "Strategos", a title typically given to the chief magistrates of northern Greek tribes during Roman antiquity.";
  • "As for their administrative structure an inscription of the Dassaretae epigrammatically lists the main organs of their state Δασσαρητίων άρχοντες, βουλή και δήμος (The archons, the boule and the demos of the Dassaretae).";
  • "Various Illyrian tribes were located in the area north of the Dassaretae, in the region north of the mines of Damastion.";
  • The entire section: "In Greek mythology".
I tagged them, but they should be removed. – Βατο (talk) 14:41, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

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