Talk:Kalwar (caste)

I have reverted a series of recent edits by User:HilssaMansen19 to the article that

• greatly expanded the article based mainly on dated (see WP:RAJ) and suspect sources (eg, , , , etc);
• added promotional commentary such as "ancient Indian caste", "a great empire that ruled over the world";
• also reworded existing content in ways that is frankly wrong/indecipherable, eg "Because of Sanskritisation as one of their occupation being distilling and selling liquor was considered lower in the post-vedic period...", "Due to continuous downgrade of the entire community through varna system..." etc.
• added content unsupported by cited sources, which are not reliable for the subject, in any case, eg "Even though most of them were of many different occupations including farmers, traders and merchants, they were generalised together. This can also be attributed to the fact that many Kalachuri Kalars were supporters of Buddhism and Jainism. Prior to 6th century, a sub-caste of Kalars who embraced Jainism were known as Jain Kalars and many still continued it.^[1][2][3]"

I don't know if there is anything worth retaining from the added material but, if so, it would be better to present and discuss it here on the talk page. Also pinging @Fylindfotberserk and Ekdalian: who have been previously involved with this page. Abecedare (talk) 22:45, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Also, majority of the content I am adding is supported by non WP:Raj findings and books. If possible, if you are able to revert it back, kindly do so. I will directly add the new sources at their place and change language style as well. I am collecting about 100 non-WP:Raj sources. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 23:27, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

Hi there, I have been working for long to collect sources to add more verified information. Apart from some of the links which were used to prove existence of a sub-caste, I think a lot of the data will need to be removed from many such pages as per WP:Raj quoted by you. I have used them as secondary sources. Please check other sources and data as well. Some parts do need their sources but if you search it, it is worth retaining as sources are available.

If the main issue is style, WP:Raj and not primarily reknown/tertiary sources, I can add other ones. @Fylindfotberserk and Ekdalian: @Abecedare: Let me know. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 23:23, 20 March 2025 (UTC)

HilssaMansen19, thanks for the response. Perhaps the best way to proceed would be to break the bulk changes into more digestible bits that can be discussed here on the talk page. Could you specify one specific addition/modification you would like to make to the article and the (hopefully, modern scholarly) source(s) that support it? Abecedare (talk) 00:05, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Abecedare, sure. For example, I wish to expand Padam Vibhushan recipient Hazari Prasad Dwivedi's writing into more clear words (as well as quoted lines, of course).

Text reference evidence in English -

"The word Kalya means morning meals; will mean provisor of morning meals at the Royal households. As wine entered as an article in meals in the Royal houses. the class Kalyapalas after belog disconnectd with Hindu Sovereignties in Mohammadan times acquired a bad odour shout their name."

https://archive.org/details/jktl_nagari-pracharini-patrika-ed-by-rai-bahadur-gowishankar-hirachand-ojha-1925-vara/page/433/mode/1up?q=Kalyapal

Shaundik Kalyapal- 1) https://archive.org/details/sanskrit-hindi-shabdakosha-2/page/%E0%A5%A7%E0%A5%A6%E0%A5%A9%E0%A5%A8/mode/1up?q=%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8B

2) https://archive.org/details/FBWc_vaijayanti-kosha-of-yadava-prakashacharya-edited-by-haragovind-shastri-chaowkham/page/n128/mode/1up?q=%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8B

(hi)

3) https://archive.org/details/dhaturupa-muktavali-hand-book-of-sanskrit-grammar-doraiswami-iyengar-p.-k.-vol-1-1915-1/vaijayanti-kosa%20%28San%29%20Synomyms%20and%20homonyms/page/n63/mode/1up?q=%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8B

(hi)

Rajatarangini, the historical records of Kashmir clearly mentions Kalyapal dynasty also known as Kalals, Kalats, Kulars, Kalwars, Shaundik or Jaiswals. The community has a great history but has been oppressed to the level that their kingdoms are claimed by others (even on Wikipedia, continuously) and backward as it is under OBC status in many states.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.346415/page/n109/mode/1up?q=%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2+%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B5%E0%A5%80

(hi)

Nearly 20 more book references including primary and mostly secondary

Other details -

Damara Dynasty origin mentions it could be Kalyapal as well along with others...

https://archive.org/details/monuments-and-temples-of-jammu-kashmir-and-ladakh-by-s.-luckvinder-singh-sodhi-kashmir-treasure/page/32/mode/1up?q=kalyapal

Source - Published 1962 Vacaspatyam

It shares historical texts about the community. All one needs to search is कल्यपाल, one of the many historical names of the community.

I have links to sources on Google Books as well.

I request you to kindly see the attached references, mostly in Hindi, quick translation will help if you do not know the language and I have been adding English ones as well. Let me know. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 05:54, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

@HilssaMansen19: That's a lot of text but it's still unclear to me what exact sentence or two (to begin with) you are proposing to add to the wikipedia article and what source(s) support that claim. And at a quick glance, none of the sources you have listed above look to be high quality for our purpose. Please see WP:HISTRS for the type of sources we are looking for for claims regarding the historical development of the Kalwar caste. Abecedare (talk) 06:39, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Abecedare, surely, I am trying to write about all the available historical facts of the community in detail. There are not so many sources but many are there despite most being to be of WP:Raj era and might not be reliable as you pointed out.

Can you guide me on the following-

There are more or less no recent scholar data available but the community's history positively written or negatively before Independence and it does not matter as we are not doing the criticism here, how should we present it as.

Can I write, "during British rule, Mr. So and So pointed out " as much of the facts have not been found in any recent publications. For example, as I pointed out the Bhandaris in Goa, which is supported by Census of India done in British Raj times. It clearly mentions that Bhandari caste is divided in two, one manufacturers (Bhandaris/Kalals) and second sellers, both being the same but one is manufacturer and the other is merchant. They are 33% in Goa but these facts are not mentioned at all whereas, arguments can be made but such facts should not be hidden. There are millions of people from this tribe known with different names and occupations as well but there is no separate articles, mention or quote regarding them, like for others.

Even during, Sikh rule, (a 1995 publication) points out that discrimination against Kalals was very high along with other communities like several branches Jats including that of Sikh Maharajajit Singh.

I really hope you do understand why I am seeking to exppand the article. If possible, can you work along with me to rewrite the article and help me remove any data that is not valid as you are an experienced and more skilled Wikipedian than me.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.55953/page/n601/mode/1up?q=Kalals

https://archive.org/details/dli.csl.3361/page/n240/mode/1up?q=Kalals

https://archive.org/details/sikhsinhistory0000sing_y1f9/page/92/mode/1up?q=Kalals HilssaMansen19 (talk) 07:03, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Abecedare, can I start editing paragraph by paragraph with proper references and citations without relying on WP:Raj or other unreliable sources? If there is some mistake or error, I will seek your guidance or you may let me know. I will surely check and correct it. Eagerly waiting for your reply, I will primarily used government documents, books (non-WP:Raj) and other sources with mainly English and as permitted other languages with proper mentioning of the details. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 09:03, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

use* HilssaMansen19 (talk) 09:03, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

The previously written article which is the current version as well did/does not mention anything at all. There are Kalals known by multiple names in South India too and they form nearly 15%-20% of the entire population. Chiefly, in Maharashtra as Chouksey, Maratha (Bhandaris) and Maratha (Kalals), Kalal Jaiswals and Shivhare. Goa as Bhandaris, other states as Billavas, Idigas and Nadars. Then, there are Telugu, Maratha Kalals who do not use this directly as surname.

In both Pakistan and Afghanistan, there are plenty resources but they are old as there has been no new research done or not publicly available to support. I will still add these for you to check.

https://archive.org/details/dli.pahar.0740/page/367/mode/1up?q=Kalals

In Maharashtra, most Kalars are agriculturers. https://archive.org/details/dli.csl.3361/page/n240/mode/1up?q=Kalals

Many have been working in nira industry and previously in liquor.

https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.08484/page/296/mode/1up?q=Kalals

https://archive.org/details/dli.ministry.08455/page/281/mode/1up?q=Kalals

https://archive.org/details/isbn_094592142x/page/n100/mode/1up?q=Kalals

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.346415/page/n109/mode/1up?q=%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%B2%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2+%E0%A4%9C%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%87%E0%A4%B5%E0%A5%80 HilssaMansen19 (talk) 06:40, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

@HilssaMansen19: Let's discuss one paragraph at a time, as suggested by Abecedare. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:48, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

It will be very difficult but sure.

I will collect data, share it here for review and then, change the initial paragraph first. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 09:31, 22 March 2025 (UTC)

I am sending the first part here and as per the already existing separate articles of different communities in different religions, I will make that separately. There is enough notable data on Sikh and Muslims but less on Jains, so I will make a section for Jains in this one only.

References won't be sent here, only text. I have sent all the references above, adding them directly is easier.

I expect from you guys to not demotivate the work any more but help in it. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 04:36, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

@HilssaMansen19: Please provide the references here (ideally, with complete bibliographic information) along with the proposed text, so that they can be evaluated before the article content is updated. You can do so just as you would in the article space; I've added a {{reflist-talk}} template below to enable that. Abecedare (talk) 05:36, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

Similar concerns at Ahluwalia (caste): HilssaMansen19 simply added these sources (some of which don't even mention the word "Ahluwalia") to the article Ahluwalia, based on conflation of Ahluwalias and Kalals. utcursch | talk 12:07, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi there,

I have been adding sources available in all platforms and as per policies. Also, your seemingly high concerns are well addressed in the sources and summary.

Prior to my edits, what was the entire base of that page? You are talking about conflating sources, but the entire article was about Kalals history.

The entire article is written with no research with possible bias and gatekeeping every information that is available.

I have read about tens of articles on communities but I have not seen such gatekeeping and admin or other user based demotivation of improving an article on either.

If I start writing the summaries from each source available like in other community pages which are alsp containing mostly mythological contexts, you would suggest "your concern" as too much as there have been such "not letting that be written here edits" (e.g. Sunri, Shoundik discussion) on this page by other admins or users with rights, whereas as a community member you should be suggesting me to improve the articles and guide me but again, the bias is surely visible.

One simple 5 minute research with appropriate wordings would have proved that true but sadly, again, some had their assumptions in comments.

Check, suggest, help, improve, and motivate rather than, bias, discriminate and demotivate. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 13:29, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

You have just mentioned that you are a "community member" and that's a big problem! There is a clear conflict of interest! We deal with hundreds of caste articles, and almost everywhere find people like you trying to promote their own caste using unreliable sources. And please note that unlike other platforms, Wikipedia is monitored by experienced editors and we don't allow caste promotion here. Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 14:08, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

Hi, Where did I mention that I am a community member? I never mentioned that. Dude, I wrote, "this page by other admins or users with rights, whereas as a community member you should be suggesting me to improve the articles and guide me but again, the bias is surely visible." There is a huge difference between me writing what you said and what I wrote.

Wikipedia is also a community. Maybe not for you as you might think otherwise going on and not even making a point.

I am not saying anything about this as your next line people like you, I am not even promoting anything here, am I? There is a clear disrespectful behaviour coming out of you and is this English wikipedia or what where even English is not understood?

Caste promotion - claiming there is promotion or suggesting maybe improvement needed is a different thing.

This disrespectful behaviour and lack of common understanding of terms is a bigger issue for Wikipedia. I am improving the articles and if needed, I will seek advise from respect worthy editors who know how to talk. Thanks. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 14:18, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

HilssaMansen19, the term "community member" has been used multiple times in different article (caste related) talk pages by editors trying to push their POV in the sense I meant! That doesn't mean I am correct here; you may have talked about Wikipedia community. But, honestly speaking, it would be difficult for any genuine community member (Wikipedia) to consider you as one amongst them, considering your ways of editing (remember an admin had to intervene here) and after the note left above by an experienced editor like utcursch! Anyway, all the best! This is English Wikipedia as you rightly said, and you are using the verb 'advise' where the noun 'advice' should have been used; anyway I am neither supposed to teach you basics here nor advise you. But I shall definitely stop poorly sourced POV pushing by any editor! Thanks. Ekdalian (talk) 16:37, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

• Let's not get distracted here. HilssaMansen19, the central issue remains the quality of sources you are citing and how you are sometimes (mis)representing what they say. If you start using the talkpage to discuss the proposed edits, that will save you the annoyance of seeing your edits reverted and save other editors from having to expend so much effort reviewing and cleaning them up (eg, at Ahluwalia (caste), Bimbet and this article). You current approach is not productive and is likely to lead to you being sanctioned. Please reconsider it. Abecedare (talk) 17:01, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

  Hi there,

  Thank you for sharing that. Your message is more helpful and worthy noting than that of Ekdalian, which seems more like his habit as opposed to the claim of being a nice person or whatever.

  I was adding references directly with the automatic tool and did see several issues. I actually thought it would be perfect, and yes, I will try to now check source text as well before finalising any addition of them.

  I will try to always double-check and publish to make it easier for truly helpful and experienced editors. HilssaMansen19 (talk) 17:10, 7 April 2025 (UTC)