Talk:Kefir

This line is unsupported by the cited reference: "Another study found levels of ethanol of 2.10%, 1.46% and 1.40% in cow, goat and sheep kefir, respectively."

The referenced article says: "Kefir has been reported to contain 1.98 g/L of CO2, 0.48% alcohol, and the amount of CO2 increased (201.7–277.0 mL/L) with raised inoculation ratio of grains (1–10%) (Arslan, 2014)".

I don't know where the "0.48%" value comes from, but it's not from "Arslan, 2014" where it says "Traditional kefir made from caprine milk was found to have a low viscosity and sensory properties unlike those of bovine kefir and contained 0.04–0.3% ethanol (Sarkar, 2008). Tratnik et al. (2006) found that the ethanol content in bovine and caprine kefir enriched with whey protein concentrate was 0.32 and 0.35%, respectively." --Stefantalpalaru (talk) 18:24, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

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This other statement also sounds off by an order of magnitude: "Kefir produced by small-scale dairies in Russia early in the 20th century had 1-2% ethanol."

There is not enough lactose in milk to get that much alcohol from fermentation, so what Farnworth writes in "Handbook of fermented functional foods (second ed.)" sounds suspicious: "Kefir produced in small dairies in the former Soviet Union in the early 20th century contained alcohol levels between 1 and 2%. Present-day methods of production result in much lower levels of alcohol. This may be due in part to the fact that fermentations are stopped at higher pH levels than previously. The final alcohol concentration is determined for the most part by the number of yeasts present in the grains added to the milk and the time of fermentation."

The reference he offers, Moulin, G., Arthaud, J.F., Ratomahenna, R., and Galzy, P., Remarques sur la production de kéfir, Ind. Aliment. Agric., 94, 495–497, 1977, doesn't seem to be available online. --Stefantalpalaru (talk) 18:55, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

This article http://www.elbrusoid.org/articles/poznat/387255/ seems to imply that kefir and bulgama (kruchenki) are both considered types of ayran in Karachai. Is that right? Pelagic ( messages ) – (16:07 Sat 23, AEDT) 05:07, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pelagic: Traditionally, the Karachays produced different types of ayran. At the moment, the most common options are thick ayran, gıpı ayran (kefir), refreshing and quenching suwsab (thick ayran and sparkling mineral water). But in the Russian Empire, gıpı ayran (kefir) was most popular. It was the most valuable, and its grains traditionally could not be shared. Gıpı ayran is one of the variations of thick ayran, and the most difficult to manufacture. It is because of the long manufacturing process that it was considered valuable and possibly distributed around the world more than other types of Karachai ayran. By the way, we call kefir simply gıpı ayran, that is, a variation of ayran cooked in a special way with gıpı grains. But old people say that before kefir or gıpı was much more tastier, but now the method of its production is greatly simplified. At the moment gıpı ayran (kefir) and ordinary thick ayran are the most popular types of ayran in Karachay and Balkaria, Karachay-Balkarians greet any guest with a large bowl of delicious homemade ayran, gıpı (kefir) or thick ayran, it does not matter. Karachays don't even have a day without ayran, you might think that they drink it in liters every day. Basically, we are very proud of our traditional beverage ayran and even have a holiday- the Day of Ayran. I have seen no Karachay-Balkar table with no ayran or gıpı ayran (kefir). Fael Daug Alan (talk) 11:40, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Fael, that’s interesting to learn. I'd never even heard of Karachays nor ayran before today. I wish that I could drink litres of gıpı ayran daily like a true Karachay (is it spelled gypy if transliterating from Cyrillic?), but here in Australia, commercial "kefir" is expensive, around 7x to 8x the price of plain cow's milk. And as you say, they probably simplify the fermentation for commercial production. There is one company here that makes filmjölk, which I find similar in taste to gıpı ayran / kefir. I like the ones that are slightly fizzy on the tongue, I guess normal thick ayran without the mineral water has no fizz? Pelagic ( messages ) – (23:55 Sat 23, AEDT) 12:55, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Pelagic, now you know about our people and our fermented milk drinks. We are always glad to have guests and are waiting for you at our place. Here you can taste our national dishes and drink gıpı or ayran (pronounced gypy / гыпы or gyfy / гыфы). After that you will definitely become a Karachay) If ayran or kefir is well-aged, they become sour and there may be sizzling bubbles on the tongue. We also have a separate name for it, küşlü ayran / кюшлю айран, by the way, in this form it contains a little alcohol. I have talked about Filmjölk with one Swede, I never got a chance to try it then, since it is not available in Russia, but judging by the description, it is really similar to kefir. Fael Daug Alan (talk) 15:19, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Current source has kundeps in Turkish transliteration; @Adigabrek has used spelling qundeps with the edit summary 'Replaced ... with the one used in the wikipedia page "Adyghe language".' Fair enough on the k–q distinction, but I’m having difficulty with the vowels. Adyghe language says there are only three vowel sounds [aː] [a] [ə] represented by а э ы / a ə ı. For dipthongs [ja] and [aj], ⟨е⟩ is listed as Cyrillic and the Latin equivalent is listed as ⟨é⟩. The letter y / w / u is listed with pronunciation [w] or [əw], but with a note "the letter ⟨ы⟩ [ə] is not written after a ⟨у⟩ [w], ... унэ [wəna] 'house' instead of уынэ". So what should the spelling be?

кьуидепс = qundéps = [qwəndajps]

кьуидэпс = qundəps = [qwəndaps]

Cheers, Pelagic ( messages ) – (09:16 Sun 24, AEDT) 22:16, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pelagic: Къундэпс = qundəps seems to be the most accurate. Thanks for noticing it. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 11:34, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, @Adigabrek, I’ve added it in brackets (and I see that I used the wrong ь vs. ъ). I was going to leave kundeps in the text and put qundəps in brackets as part of the lang-ady template, but since the main text has already been updated to qundəps, I instead mentioned kundeps spelling in the footnote. I’m not strongly attached to one approach over the other. Pelagic ( messages ) – (06:27 Mon 25, AEDT) 19:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@Adigabrek and @Fael Daug Alan: can we take a break from the edit war and move the argument from edit summaries to the talk page where it belongs, please?

Apart from "my group is more important than your group so the reading order should be me–you not you–us", which I'm not going near, I see two issues that might be tractable:

1. Language. Non-Indo-European Non-Turkic North Caucasian languages group containing Circassian languages containing Adyghe versus Turkic language group containing Karachay-Balkar, Turkish, etc.

2. Geography. Northern Caucasus, Kuban, Circassia, etc. You might need to help me out because I’ve looked at some of our Wikipedia articles and I’m still having trouble picturing how the regions relate. As far as I can see, Kuban river is north of the mountains, Circassia is south, and Mount Elbrus is between, all in the western part of the mountain range. Does "Northern Caucasus" mean the section of mountains and foothills from the peaks down towards the Kuban? Is that then separate from Circassia on the south side? Pelagic ( messages ) – (12:27 Sun 24, AEDT) 01:27, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pelagic:,there was no Circassia in the official history. There was no such country, and now there is no such region either. This is a pseudo history. The region from which the first kefir fungi were exported is called Karachay, that is, the high surroundings of the Kuban River, more precisely the Karachay village of Khurzuk. It was from there that the first batches of kefir grains were taken out for production and the original fungi are still stored in Karachai houses which are 200-300 years old. In the mountainous areas of Karachay-Cherkessia or Kabardino-Balkaria, there are no Adyghe geographical names, but there are only Karachay-Balkarian ones. There is no precise research from the Russian Academy of Sciences on the history of the Circassians, since during the formation of the USSR the Adyghe people were given the ethnonym Circassian, which was previously called all the peoples of the Caucasus, including the Tatars, Kumyks, Nogai, Ossetians, Karachais and Balkars, and Cossacks. Initially, the Alans lived in this region, after the invasion of Timur, who died to a greater extent, and the minority fled to the mountains, that is, the Karachais, Balkars and Digors. Then the Adygs from the coast of the Azov and Black seas moved to the devastated plain of Alania. Where the Circassians lived before and how they got there is unknown, since all the peoples of the Caucasus, including the Cossacks, were called Circassians. Kefir cannot be Adyghe in any way, since it is a variation of the common Turkic Ayran, and a continuation of kumys culture. If possible, prohibit the adygabrek from accessing the correction of these articles, as he uses unreliable sources, does not provide archival documents and is engaged in pseudo-history based on nationalism and hatred. Fael Daug Alan (talk) 11:43, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

You said "There is no precise research from the Russian Academy of Sciences on the history of the Circassians". This is simply untrue. To give one example, the Russian Academy of Sciences recognizes the Battle of Kanzhal, which your people (very) agressively deny. Furthermore, even if they did not make studies on us, "the Russian Academy of Sciences" is not an international judge on what is historical and what is not. We fought against the Russians for 101 years while you did not. Is it that hard to see who they'd be rooting for? ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 11:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Hello @Pelagic:, firstly thanks for trying to solve this.

Let me adress your first point, I don't mind the "reading order", in fact in my edits, Karachay-Balkars were mentioned first. However I don't know if you have noticed, Fael Daug Alan is trying to completely remove the mention of Circassians and Georgians from the article.

To further adress your points/questions,

1- The name "kefir" used in English and Russian has it's origins in most likely Turkic.

2- "Northern Caucasus" refers to the region from the beginning of the Kuban river from the Azov Sea to Dagestan. Circassians are the native people of the Northwest Caucasus, while the Southwest Northern Caucasus region (the mount elbrus, which also recieves from the Kuban) has been mostly unhabited until the arrival of Alans - who are the ancestors of the Ossetians, Chechen-Ingush, and Karachay-Balkar. During the 15th century, Circassians expanded east, in what is now known as Kabardia.

My point is that since both sides argue they have are the original users of kefir (although Circassians do not claim to be the "inventor", we have it since very old times, older than the Karachay-Balkar version mentioned here) both Circassians and Karachay-Balkars must be mentioned, or none, and just a simple "North Caucasus". Otherwise, this page will be rooting for the Karachay-Balkar and Russian POV, ignoring other claims/theories. One thing I've noticed with Daug Alan's version of this article is that he wrote exactly what Circasians say about kefir, under the name Karachay Balkar. We've heard stories from our elders that say the Kefir was given to us by Prophet Muhammad, and if we share it to the "kafirs", it would make God angry, but we failed to protect the recipe. You can see a very similar story is told here in the Karachay-Balkar perspective, and we also have it, why only mention the Karachay-Balkars and not North Caucasians in general?

Also let me add, Karachay-Balkar people deny most things about our history, even claiming we aren't native to the Caucasus, or "Circassian" refers not to us. This is because they see us as their rivals. While I think such things are childish, I've recieved nothing but hate from the Karachay-Balkars I've met online.

Thank you.

~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 11:49, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pelagic: and @Adigabrek: The largest number of fictions was noticed in the Kabardin branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences. Therefore, I would not trust the words taken out of context by one employee, there is no serious work about Kanzhol battle. The Russian Academy of Sciences, if not an international organization, but it writes the official history of the peoples of Russia and other international organizations use her research, and it is not on our side. The deportation of the Karachay-Balkar people, which destroyed two-thirds of the population, was also due to the fact that Russia was rooting for us?

I take only the official archival documents and works of the Russian Academy of Sciences, since if we took the work performed by other authors, you would prove that humanity came from the Circassians. I face this Adyghe nationalism every day. The scientific journal Nature admitted that according to DNA genelogy, only the Turkic-speaking peoples are direct descendants of the Scythians, but the RAS is still based on the outdated and corrupted works of Soviet authors and recognizes that they spoke Ossetian, and the Karachays, Balkars and Ingush are their descendants who did not preserve the Alan language. Volumes of books were written exposing this theory, and confirming that the territory of western Alania spoke the Turkic language and wrote using Turkic runes, this is confirmed by the old kurgans, burials, ancient balbals. But the Euro-centrist RAS does not admit this anyway. Therefore, it is not worth saying that Russia is on our side. The main goal of Russia is to embroil us, as we are doing now, Adyg and Karachay having a beef, and that happens every day.

As for kefir, it's clear that the story about what Muhammad gave it is a fairy tale that people invented. Kefir is a variation of ayran or kumis, which was invented by the Turkic-speaking Alans of the Caucasus, our ancestors, and they called it by a Turkic name. I am for the friendship of peoples, we all live on the same planet and the whole world drinks ayran or kefir. I like eating adyghe dish libzhe and never claimed it to be Karachay, just because I like it. No one is trying to appropriate history for themselves, and everyone recognizes that Bekmyrza Baychorov and Irina Sakharova were the first to tell the world about kefir. Fael Daug Alan (talk) 12:23, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

[I started replying here, but by the time I’d finished writing, two extra comments were posted. Moving mine below the others, and adjusting indent. Pelagic ( messages ) – (05:58 Mon 25, AEDT) 18:58, 24 January 2021 (UTC)]

You're acting like I'm anti-Karachay-Balkar, while in reality, I just like you said would like us to be unified, however I'm sick of the hatred coming from them to us in every single platform. If you see us as friends, why are you so triggered about the Circassians getting the mention they deserve (because they also have kefir since old times just like you do, share the same myths about kefir's origin as you and have been protecting it for ages just like you) in this article? In my edit I did not delete any information about Bekmyrza Baychorov and Irina Sakharova, just added a mention for Circassians because we don't do POV writing in Wikipedia. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 18:09, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@Adigabrek, @Fael Daug Alan: Thank you both for your detailed replies. I was mistaken about the south side, must have been confusing "Circassia" with Colchis. Sounds like you have two (or more) ethno-linguistic groups who have inhabited the same region over a long time and who both suffered at various stages under Imperial or Soviet Russian rule, and that there are concerns about the neutrality of modern Russian sources. But there aren’t many sources that give a specific origin, I've seen some that effectively say "somewhere in the Caucasus or Balkans".

The true origin of the grains might be quite old, but kefir seems to have only been documented from when it came to Russian attention, at a time when they were already impacting populations in the area. Would it be an acceptable compromise to say Northern Caucasus as the geographic region of origin, but still include mention of Karachay-Balkar people in relation to the story of Sakharova and Baychorov? Is there enough evidence to pin down the region of origin to Mount Elbrus and upper Kuban River? Or is that just where the Russians encountered it? Pelagic ( messages ) – (05:51 Mon 25, AEDT) 18:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pelagic: I am perfectly in agreement with mentioning North(west) Caucasian people as the original inventors and the Karachay-Balkar couple as the first distributers. This is giving historical information, while the previous version was simply writing Karachay POV. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 19:03, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pelagic: can you go ahead with it? Since if I do any slight edit, even fix a typo, the other guy will come and dedicate his entire will to remove it. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 12:12, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

@Pelagic: Have you seen my previous message? ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 15:59, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Adigabrek, yes I checked this page late last night (or early this morning depending on your point of view) but fell asleep after posting to Cullen's section below.

I wasn’t proposing any specific change, but rather seeking to discuss and maybe even get agreement on some principles:

1. Avoiding false specificity when describing geographic origin. Putting aside what people may think of the Russian Academy of Sciences, is it correct to say that the product comes from Elbrus and upper Kuban specifically rather than northern (or north-western) Caucasus generally? Is the geographic origin simply being inferred from the supposed ethnographic origin? The information is sourced to a book in Russian that I don’t have access to, so I’m not in a position to unilaterally remove it.
2. Less detail in the lead section. Is it necessary or helpful for the reader to have a lot of weight given to the origin up front? Or is that better moved to an Origins/History section? I might do this as a specific proposed change in its own talk section.
3. I didn’t say it explicitly, but distinguishing between terms for geographic regions, administrative territories, cultural groups, and linguistic groups.

— Pelagic ( messages ) – (12:42 Sat 30, AEDT) 01:42, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

I am an administrator and will not be expressing any opinions about any aspect of the content dispute itself. Please be aware that is an article about a dairy food item consumed worldwide. This is not an article where any form of nationalistic POV pushing will be tolerated. None whatsoever. Every edit to this talk page or the article itself must be in the spirit of consensus and developing a stable and neutral article. So be warned: Nationalistic POV pushers will be blocked if they persist. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:13, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Cullen328. — Pelagic ( messages ) – (01:47 Sat 30, AEDT) 14:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Can you help me in cleaning the POV added by the karachay user? Some people tried it already but were instantly reverted it seems people who know nothing about the article come here to revert random edits. ~𝓐𝓭𝓲𝓰𝓪𝓫𝓻𝓮𝓴 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓕𝓲𝓻𝓼𝓽~^Contact 09:05, 16 April 2021 (UTC)