Talk:Kurdish language

Edit request: Revise History section – remove or qualify uncorroborated claims, prioritize manuscript evidence (WP:RS, WP:UNDUE, WP:VER, WP:NPOV)

The History section opens with two paragraphs presenting exceptional claims about early Kurdish texts that lack strong reliable secondary sourcing or corroboration, giving them undue prominence (WP:UNDUE) relative to the peer-reviewed Cambridge History of the Kurds reference (citation [53]), which is based on an extant manuscript. This risks violating WP:RS (over-reliance on primary/outdated sources for exceptional claims), WP:VER (no independent verification), and WP:NPOV (not neutrally presenting scholarly consensus).

Current text (relevant excerpt): "During his stay in Damascus, historian Ibn Wahshiyya came across two books on agriculture written in Kurdish, one on the culture of the vine and the palm tree, and the other on water and the means of finding it out in unknown ground. He translated both from Kurdish into Arabic in the early 9th century AD.[51]

Among the earliest Kurdish religious texts is the Yazidi Black Book, the sacred book of Yazidi faith. It is considered to have been authored sometime in the 13th century AD by Hassan bin Adi (b. 1195 AD), the great-grandnephew of Sheikh Adi ibn Musafir (d. 1162), the founder of the faith. It contains the Yazidi account of the creation of the world, the origin of man, the story of Adam and Eve and the major prohibitions of the faith.[52]

According to The Cambridge History of the Kurds, "the first proper 'text'" written in Kurdish is a short Christian prayer. It was written in Armenian characters, and dates from the fifteenth century.[53]"

Proposed changes:

1. **Remove the Ibn Wahshiyya paragraph** (the first one quoted above).

  - Proposed: Delete entirely.
  - Reason: Citation [51] is a 1806 translation of a primary source (Ibn Wahshiyya's self-reported claim in Shawq al-Mustaham). No manuscripts or independent evidence of these "Kurdish books" exist. Modern scholarship (e.g., Hämeen-Anttila 2006, The Last Pagans of Iraq, Brill) views his works as often pseudepigraphic, exaggerated, or unreliable. The Cambridge History mentions this only as a controversial reference, not verified evidence. Presenting it as fact gives undue weight to an uncorroborated anecdote (WP:UNDUE) and uses a primary source for an exceptional claim without secondary support (WP:RS/WP:PRIMARY).

2. **Remove the Yazidi Black Book paragraph** (the second one quoted above).

  - Proposed: Delete entirely. (Preferred for simplicity and policy compliance.)
  - Alternative if retention desired: Replace with a qualified version: "The Yazidi Black Book (Mishefa Reş) is a text associated with Yazidi traditions, but modern scholarship regards it as a late compilation (likely 19th–20th century) based on oral sources rather than an authentic medieval written work, with questions about its origins as a possible forgery or non-Yazidi compilation.[new citation]"
  - Reason: Citation [52] (Guest 1987) is outdated. Scholarly consensus (e.g., Encyclopædia Iranica "Jelwa, Ketāb al-" and "Yazidis" entries; Kreyenbroek's studies; Omarkhali's research) holds that the Black Book (and companion Kitêba Cilwe) are late 19th–early 20th-century texts, likely compiled or forged by outsiders using oral traditions. Yazidism traditionally prohibits writing sacred texts, and no early manuscripts support a 13th-century authorship by Hassan bin Adi. Stating this as an "earliest Kurdish religious text" with specific authorship/date contradicts reliable sources and violates WP:NPOV/WP:VER.

3. **Retain and prioritize the Cambridge reference** (as the reliable opening):

  - Keep: "According to The Cambridge History of the Kurds, "the first proper 'text'" written in Kurdish is a short Christian prayer. It was written in Armenian characters, and dates from the fifteenth century.[53]"
  - Reason: This is a high-quality tertiary/secondary source (Cambridge University Press, 2021) citing a real, extant manuscript (Armenian characters, copied 1430–1446). It represents consensus on the earliest attested "proper" written Kurdish text.

Resulting revised opening after removals: "According to The Cambridge History of the Kurds, "the first proper 'text'" written in Kurdish is a short Christian prayer. It was written in Armenian characters, and dates from the fifteenth century.[53]

From the 15th to 17th centuries, classical Kurdish poets and writers developed a literary language. ..."

This prioritizes manuscript-based evidence over self-reported claims, improves neutrality, and aligns with scholarly consensus. If partial qualification is preferred over full removal, the alternatives above could be used.

Suggested new citations to add if qualifying: - Hämeen-Anttila, Jaakko (2006). The Last Pagans of Iraq: Ibn Waḥshiyya and His Nabatean Agriculture. Brill. (for Ibn Wahshiyya) - Encyclopædia Iranica: "Jelwa, Ketāb al-" (for Black Book origins and late discovery/compilation) - Kreyenbroek, Philip G. (various works, e.g., on Yazidi oral traditions)

Thanks for considering. IlberOCelalS (talk) 08:38, 11 February 2026 (UTC)

Not done: your request appears to have been generated by a large language model. Day Creature (talk) 15:03, 11 February 2026 (UTC)