Talk:List of French desserts

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 02:51, 24 June 2026 (UTC)

List of French desserts → List of French patisserie – The current page, list of french dessert title is inaccurate, as it then breaks down to french desserts, french pastries then viennoiserie. However there is no definition of what a french dessert or pastry is, they are all Patisserie, while Viennoiserie is actually separare as per the renowned cookery school Le Cordin Bleu. The page should be renamed, and the Viennoiserie section removed and linked to the Viennoiserie page. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 18:08, 17 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. Jeffrey34555 (talk) 18:03, 24 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. ⹃Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley${\displaystyle \lor }$investigateᛅ} 23:01, 31 May 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 01:54, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

• "French" should start with a capital letter. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:59, 17 May 2026 (UTC)

Typo sorry.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:18, 18 May 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current title meets all WP:CRITERIA. I don't see any reason to split out viennoiseries; they are also desserts. 162 etc. (talk) 18:45, 24 May 2026 (UTC)

  So a Croissant, which Wikipedia lists as a breakfast course (which is what Le Cordin Bleu also stated its is) is a dessert? There is no definition but OR on the list to what is a dessert or a pastry. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 19:04, 24 May 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, I don't see a problem with considering a croissant to be a dessert, if we want to get technical about it. We are writing for the English Wikipedia, not the French one. There seems to be some confusion here about what the word dessert means. The Dessert article says that a desert is a food that has been sweetened, such as a cake or biscuit. The term is also used to refer to a meal course, but that is a different sense of the word. The Viennoiserie article says that a Viennoiserie is something made from dough that has been sweetened with sugar and enriched with butter. If a croissant is such a thing, then I don't have a problem with considering it a dessert type of food. You have my permission to eat a dessert for breakfast. The word breakfast usually refers to a meal eaten in the morning rather than primarily a type of food. We can put any other appropriate explanation inside the article rather than in its title – for example, we can say in the article that Viennoiserie are discussed in a different list since they are considered a distinct food category in French, but we don't need to use the French term in the title of the English Wikipedia article. Most readers of English are not familiar with the term patisserie. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:34, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

  Sorry but are you using the term "Most readers of English are not familiar with the term patisserie"? I think you will find that many in the UK know what it is - Great British Bake Off, Bake Off: The Professionals and Pâtisserie Valerie have shown this to people. Its the same in Australia and New Zealand. Secondly, Croissant are generally eaten as breakfast in most countries not just France - Wendy's class them as Breakfast. If you search is a croissant a dessert, Google AI will state its not a dessert but a pastry. You will find plenty of dessert recipes for leftover croissants. So in culinary terms it is not a dessert, and as an encyclopaedia we should be listing foods by correct culinary terms not personal preference. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 05:58, 6 June 2026 (UTC)

  And for those who have some degree of familiarity, a patisserie is a shop that sells sweet baked goods, so this title would be for a list of French shops. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:35, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

  Wrong. Dictionary meaning states: A patisserie is a specialized bakery that makes and sells French-style pastries, cakes, and delicate sweets. The term also refers to the sweet pastries themselves and the culinary art of pastry-making. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 18:58, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

  If a patisserie is a type of bakery, how is it wrong to say that a "List of French patisserie" could be a list of such French bakeries that sell sweet baked goods? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:06, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose: splitting them up would be overly specific and not useful. Move, split vienoisserie to separate page. Felinaex ^{(purr / pawprints)} 23:02, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

  But as per the proposal, where is the distinction between the two. Take an eclair. It is eaten as both a dessert and as cake/pastry. Same for Chouquettes, see Choux pastry. Mille-feuille or Vanilla slice is considered as both a cake/pastry and a dessert. The term Pastry is the issue. Pastry is the generic word used in the US/Canada for all small sweet baked goods (Merriam-Webster), very much like Cake is in the UK and most of the rest of the English speaking world. The French do not distinguish what pâtisserie is. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 05:31, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

  Oh, I see what you mean now, thanks for taking the time to explain. Have amended my vote. Felinaex ^{(purr / pawprints)} 19:35, 5 June 2026 (UTC)

• Oppose. But what about List of French desserts and pastries? В²C ☎ 06:50, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

  So what do you mean by pastries? Pastries means different thinks in different places. In the US and Canada it means small sweet baked goods, but in the UK and most of the rest of the English speaking world they use Cake (as the description for pastry in Oxford English dictionary states "small cake made from pastry"). Pastry in those parts of the world is normally used for all goods made with pastry dough, sweet or savoury. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 10:59, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

  The article already uses “pastries” in the North American sense, so it’s in USENGLISH and we follow suit in the title. Policy and guidelines are well established for situations like this. —В²C ☎ 07:12, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

  But the article is not written in American English, and does not state anywhere in the list that it is. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 07:49, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

  By your own statement above, it uses “pastries” in the American English sense, and is therefore an article written in American English. —-В²C ☎ 10:32, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

  For an article or list to be written in American English it needs to use Template:American English. This does not have that, so it needs to be written in neutral English that all can understand. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 12:04, 11 June 2026 (UTC)

  That's not really true. There is no concept of "neutral English" on Wikipedia. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:17, 12 June 2026 (UTC)

  You only need to go through a consensus process of determining and labeling an article with a particular variant of English if it has had a history of disagreement about that issue. That’s not the case here. And the obvious variant here, again, by your own admission, is American English.

  And like @BarrelProof says, no such thing as “neutral English”. The only rule is to stick to the existing variant of the article, and for the title to be consistent with it, which the current title is. —В²C ☎ 18:09, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

  But it isn't. The title says french desserts, but thats incorrect. As per nomination, it has Pastries and Viennoiserie, so the title is wrong. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 18:42, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

  That depends on which definition of dessert you're using. American's don't recognize a category of food called viennoiserie, so they aren't so choosy about what type of food to consider those to be. Weak support for List of French desserts and pastries as suggested by В²C. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:55, 14 June 2026 (UTC)

  Funny Time Out US magazine uses the phrase , a US Bakery supplier , a cooking school in San Francisco , a bakery in Miami , on Facebook , restaurants . The Bread and Bakers Guild of America use the phrase too . Davidstewartharvey (talk) 16:55, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

  Yes, I don't doubt that specialist bakers and Francophiles use the word, but Wikipedia is not just for specialists. It is not included in the Cambridge, Collins or Meriam-Webster dictionaries of English (although the OED does have it). I also note that Time Out used the more familiar "pastries" in their headline. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:18, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is an Encyclopaedia. As per our own article Generally speaking, encyclopedia articles focus on factual information concerning the subject named in the article's title; this is unlike dictionary entries, which focus on linguistic information about words, such as their etymology, meaning, pronunciation, use, and grammatical forms". So we should use the correct factual culinary names, not common names that are different across the globe. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 20:11, 20 June 2026 (UTC)

  Clarification: My comment above about a lack of definitions in dictionaries was about the word viennoiserie, not patisserie, which is a more common word. I may have misunderstood what was being said. I had looked in Time Out and seen that viennoiserie was used in that article. However, the Time Out article does not use the word patisserie (as a word), so maybe viennoiserie is what Davidstewartharvey was referring to. Robertsky seems to be referring to patisserie. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:05, 21 June 2026 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Food and drink and WikiProject France have been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 16:16, 9 June 2026 (UTC)

Support per WP:UE, the word (without the diacritics) has entered in both American and British dictionaries, although with different meanings. , , , defining the words as a place that sells cakes or pastries. – robertsky (talk) 22:29, 20 June 2026 (UTC)