Talk:Rephaim text

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Launchballer talk 12:53, 16 June 2025 (UTC)

• ... that the Rephaim text, a 14th-century BCE Ugaritic poem, tells of divine warrior beings who ride for three days to a threshing floor - only to spend the next seven days eating there?

• • Reviewed:

Moonshane1933 (talk) 21:19, 18 May 2025 (UTC).

General eligibility:

• New enough:
• Long enough:
• Other problems:

Policy compliance:

• Adequate sourcing:
• Neutral:
• Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
• Other problems:

Hook eligibility:

• Cited: - "beings who ride for three days to a threshing floor - only to spend the next seven days eating there." is verified. "14th-century BCE" is unverified. "divine warrior beings" is unverified. rp'm can be deities, the dead, the king's men.
• Interesting:
• Other problems:

Overall: Article is good to go. Just need to provide refs for hook. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:44, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

@Moonshane1933: Please address the above; I will fail this if this is not remedied in a week.--Launchballer 12:03, 4 June 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer: since the article is overall good in quality, I am happy to pass the verified part of the hook: "ALT1... that the Rephaim text, a Ugaritic poem, tells of beings who ride for three days to a threshing floor - only to spend the next seven days eating there?" @Moonshane1933:, it would be great if you could add a reference for "14th-century BCE". I went through the references, however could not find a reference. May be offline reference can be provided. Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:20, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

Just noting that I have partially struck my earlier comment per my talk page.--Launchballer 22:01, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

Hi!

Thank you for your help! Here are the citations, I will also add them to the main article if I see that they are missing.

Dating to the 14th century - Yogev, Jonathan (2021). The rephaim: sons of the Gods. Culture and history of the ancient Near East. Leiden ; Boston: Brill. p. 175. ISBN 978-90-04-46085-0.

Divine beings (demigods or descended from gods)- Yogev, Jonathan (2021). The rephaim: sons of the Gods. Culture and history of the ancient Near East. Leiden ; Boston: Brill. pp. 38, 175. ISBN 978-90-04-46085-0.

If demigods or beings of divine lineage is not "divine" enough, or is not enough of a consensus, maybe it could be changed to "mysterious warrior beings"?

Warrior beings - Yogev, Jonathan (2021). The rephaim: sons of the gods. Culture and history of the ancient Near East. Leiden Boston (Mass.): Brill. p. 38. ISBN 978-90-04-46085-0.

The fact that the Rephaim are warriors is also clear from the texts themselves,for instance as reproduced by Coogan, Michael David; Smith, Mark S., eds. (2012). Stories from ancient Canaan (2nd ed.). Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press. pp. 61-62. ISBN 978-0-664-23242-9.

Most of the above is according to the conclusions of Yogev, who for the best of my knowledge is the most recent to have written about the Rephaim, and it agrees with, or at least does not contradict most other scholars, at least from what I have seen. I could probably provide more sources if needed...

Thank you for your patience! Moonshane1933 (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2025 (UTC)

@Moonshane1933: Thank you. Per WP:DYKCITE, I must ask for quotes from the offline sources used for the claims in the hook.--Launchballer 15:50, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

@Moonshane1933:, Even if I assume good faith for the dating, I am not sure that the Rephaim are necessarily "divine". The Rephaim may be human - quoting from the article "John Gray proposed that the Rephaim were actually human "cultic functionaries" who join the king on his visits to threshing floors and plantations, as is describied in the Rephaim text, "in order to promote fertility".[6] L'Heureux proposed a fourth opinion that the Rephaim were gods, though not minor ones.[6] According to his conclusion the term Rephaim may refer either to human or divine individuals or groups." I am okay to use "mysterious" since the identity of the Rephaim is unknown and debated in scholarly circles.Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:00, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Ah. Sorry. I'm still learning as I go...

@Redtigerxyz: I can assure you that the dating to the 14th century in the article is in good faith, I honestly understand it to be true, based on Yogev (see the quotes below) who lists the Rephaim texts ("the Rpʾum") among the writings of the 14th century scribe Ilimilku, and I don't remember ever seeing it contested. I'm open to other opinions, I just don't know of any...

Of course, I don't deny that there were scholars who saw the Rephaim as human, it's clear from the quote @Redtigerxyz: provided, I just understand that the majority still concludes that they were divine in one way or another. But again, if for some reason I misunderstand or these quotes are lacking, or if the hook needs to contain only information that is absolute consensus, I agree with you and I'm also okay with "Mysterious warrior beings". Though if you could, I'd appreciate it if you would check out the quotes below to see if they're enough to say that the Rephaim were divine warrior beings, if not we'll just go with mysterious warrior beings and call it a day.

@Launchballer: Here are the quotes with the citations:

Dating to the 14th century -

"Let us conclude: who were the Rephaim and where did they originate? In order to answer these questions, we began this quest with the oldest evidence available, found in ancient Ugarit.The texts written by the scribe ʾIlimilku are dated to the 14th century BCE and provide the earliest known depiction of the Rephaim of all Ugaritic texts. These texts (The Kirta story, the Aqhatu legend, the myth of the god Baʿalu and the Rpʾum) are usually called “myths,” yet when speaking of a time when history and myth are one and the same, we must refer to ʾIlimilku as a historian, who writes of heroes and tales of old, like Biblical scribes telling the story of the Flood or tales of Abraham." Yogev, Jonathan (2021). The rephaim: sons of the Gods. Culture and history of the ancient Near East. Leiden ; Boston: Brill. p. 175. ISBN 978-90-04-46085-0.

Regarding the Divine beings (demigods or descended from gods)-

"...besides being brothers, there is a strong indication of family relationship in KTU 1.22, I, 1–6, with the mentioning of son/s and grandson/s, with a context to the gods. In KTU 1.16, I, 9–11 and 17–23, King Kirta, one of the Rpʾum (§2.5) is being referred to as a son of ʾIlu and a member of the God’s family. If we add to this equation the common epithets of the Rpʾum; ʾilnym (“divine ones”), mtm (“mortal heroes”) and ʾilm (“gods”), it is suggested that the Rpʾum are the mortal members of the family of the gods, the demigod kings and leaders (as Dānʾilu the known judge) who work in their service, but not “gods” as the main deities. This fact has several additional proofs in the next texts."

Yogev, Jonathan (2021). The rephaim: sons of the Gods. Culture and history of the ancient Near East. Leiden ; Boston: Brill. p. 38. ISBN 978-90-04-46085-0.

"The Rephaim are demigods, descendants of gods, and this gives them their stature and the legitimacy to rule and judge. The divine origin of the Rephaim is demonstrated in a number of ways: 1) they are called ʾilnym (“divine ones”) or ʾilm (“gods”) several times, but they are not actual gods, nor are they priests in the service of gods. They die like any other mortal, and they do not possessany supernatural powers; 2) it is said that they are called “sons”/”grandsons,” and also “brothers” before ʾIlu, which points to their common origin from the main god in the Ugaritic pantheon; 3) in KTU 1.16, I, 9–11 and 17–23, King Kirta, a member of the Rephaim, is addressed as “son” and “descendant/family” of ʾIlu, and also referred to as one of the gods; 4) the use of the element of Rpʾu in theophoric names is much favored by the Ugaritic population, as seen in the discussion of KTU 1.108, which refers to the divine aspect of the Ugaritic king. This shows that the Rpʾu, the divine aspect of the monarch, was given the honor of a god; 5) in Biblical literature, the Nephilim, the descendants of the coupling between the Sons of God and the daughters of men, are addressed as “heroes” and “known men,” like the Rephaim in the Ugaritic text, and at a later stage, they are referred to as “giants” (Num 13:33). The “giants’ myth” is combined with that of the Rephaim in several places in the tradition of the “living Rephaim,” and so, from the viewpoint of the Biblical scribes, the Rephaim are indeed the unholy mortal offspring of God; 6) Isa 14 and Ezek 28 places the dead Rephaim in a speech that ridicules foreign kings who believe that they are divine, as they are mocked for their arrogance and their obvious mortality." Yogev, Jonathan (2021). The rephaim: sons of the Gods. Culture and history of the ancient Near East. Leiden ; Boston: Brill. pp.175-176. ISBN 978-90-04-46085-0.

Warrior beings - "the Rpʾum are warriors, and ride battle chariots" Yogev, Jonathan (2021). The rephaim: sons of the gods. Culture and history of the ancient Near East. Leiden Boston (Mass.): Brill. p. 38. ISBN 978-90-04-46085-0.

The notion that the Rephaim are divine warriors also seems to be the clear conclusion based on the reproduction of the texts by Coogan and Smith - "To his place the Rephaim went, to his place the divine ones went, the warriors of Baal and the warriors of Anat... To his place the Rephaim went, to his place the divine ones went... There were the Rephaim of Baal, the warriors of Baal and the warriors of Anat." Coogan, Michael David; Smith, Mark S., eds. (2012). Stories from ancient Canaan (2nd ed.). Louisville, KY: Westminster John Knox Press. pp. 61-62. ISBN 978-0-664-23242-9.

Thank you again, Moonshane1933 (talk) 19:14, 8 June 2025 (UTC)

Looks good to me, but I'd like to hear from @Redtigerxyz: before I approve this.--Launchballer 14:30, 10 June 2025 (UTC)

AGF on offline ref quote. "demigods"/ "giants" are per se not divine ("gods"). John Gray believes that they are human. The identity of Rp'm remains disputed in scholarly circles. Okay to pass ALT1... that the Rephaim text, a 14th-century BCE Ugaritic poem, tells of mysterious warrior beings who ride for three days to a threshing floor - only to spend the next seven days eating there?Redtigerxyz ^Talk 18:05, 10 June 2025 (UTC)