Talk:Sayfo

Assyrian capture of Urmia in 1918

According to historian David Gaunt, a primary characteristic was the total targeting of the Assyrian population, including farming villages as well as rebelling mountain tribes. The killing in rural regions was more extensive, while some survived the massacres in cities; Gaunt states that this indicates that a primary aim was the confiscation of land. The property, villages and animals of the villagers were destroyed totally to prevent their return.^[1] In most areas, the genocide occurred between June and October 1915.^[2]

^[3][4][5]

There are four actually five discussions archived in Talk:Sayfo/Archive 5. The problem with the infobox that's been added is that it's misleading to readers. For example, the numbers of dead provided is the only number that exists, but reliable sources don't consider it an accurate figure. Location is not accurate since the article also discusses events in Iran/Persia. Target is biased because of the terminological issues discussed in the article, and the perpetrators is incomplete to the point of bias. The content provided in the date, attack type, and motive fields is not supported by reliable sources. Etc. I think all of these nuances cannot be conveyed adequately in the infobox format. (t · c) buidhe 01:56, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

This all doesn’t make much sense tho.

first of all, the number is actually reliable and supported by various academics? Location can be fixed, but you’re actually wrong considering the massacres In Persia took place when the ottomans occupied those areas, meaning it remains in the Ottoman Empire. The target isn’t biased in any way bro, target is Assyrian, simple as that. Just go and watch any other genocide page, those pages are absolutely no different from the points ur throwing out. And the date, attack type, and motive are all sourced throughout the page, so idk what ur talking about. The Infobox isn’t misleading, but an easier way for readers to sum up the whole page.

i argue we allow the Infobox just like any other genocide page, they are no different from this page. Etcnoel1 (talk) 23:18, 29 April 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Buidhe here, and I really don't think we have to have this discussion again. This article passed FAC in this state, and had plenty of eyes on it, after all; any such change should require a consensus of multiple authors. (Taking WP:NICE at heart would help, too). --Jens Lallensack (talk) 00:12, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Just to be a bit more specific: you give the dates as 1915-1917. I'd say the article supports the 1915 start date sufficiently (although some sources say 1914), but there is no sourced content in the article that it ended in 1917. Some sources give 1915 as the end year, others 1918 or even 1924. This type of disagreement on the most basic facts makes it hard to represent the subject using an infobox, without failing NPOV or other policies. I also opposed an infobox on the Armenian genocide article, but at least there is more consensus on the basic info. (t · c) buidhe 00:57, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

No, nobody says 1924 except the uneducated people who think that the Assyrian rebellion and it’s exile is a part of the genocide.

The genocide started in 1915, and ended in 1918. It’s easily confirmable by checking the page for just a bit. Etcnoel1 (talk) 06:13, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Even if we were going to substitute our own opinion of what is "educated" to believe over what reliable sources say—where in the page does it say the genocide ended in 1918? (t · c) buidhe 06:19, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

That’s when the MASSACRES ended, more specifically in today’s Persia. what you’re doing is that you’re looking at what every source says, no matter what they say. If we would do that, then the Armenian genocide would end in 1923 or 1916 instead of 1917.

assyrians managed to escape the massacres and reach the refugee camps by 1918, ending the massacres, and also ending the wage of Jihad against the Ottoman Christian’s and the attempt to wipe them out after the war. Etcnoel1 (talk) 06:26, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

what you’re doing is that you’re looking at what every source says, no matter what they say yes that's exactly how Wikipedia works, please see WP:NPOV. (t · c) buidhe 14:15, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

My mistake, I meant that you take the word of every source. My point is that; not every source is correct, you need reliable ones to confirm and you should only take the word of reliable ones on this matter. Now can you show me any academic source which states that Sayfo ended in 1924? Cause this is the same case for the Armenian genocide, and every single other genocide. You’re bringing up issues that every single genocide has, many sources agree to disagree and have their own view on the matter. This shouldn’t determine whether the page deserves an Infobox or not in order to sum up the page.. We should go by what majority academics say and agree upon, which is that it started in 1915 and according to even contemporary reports, ended in 1918. Sayfo is no different from the other genocide pages, I don’t see how this is an issue, just put in the Infobox on what majority historians and academics agree upon. Etcnoel1 (talk) 14:53, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

not every source is correct while if two reliable sources contradict each other both can't both be right, we are not able to determine which one is correct—WP:verifiability, not truth.

Most sources probably have somewhere between 1915 and 1918 as the end date, but not all. I know at least one reliable source that says the Armenian genocide is still in some sense ongoing today. (t · c) buidhe 15:03, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

If two sources contradict each other, you obviously need to find a new source to confirm either one. that’s why I stated that we should take after what the majority of the sources say. Also, I know multiple sources stating different dates for the Armenian genocide. The correct date for the Sayfo is 1915-1918. sources saying it continued further are in all probability referring to massacres that took place later on,

such as; Simele massacre or the exile during the Assyrian rebellion. Etcnoel1 (talk) 16:25, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

If two sources contradict each other, you obviously need to find a new source to confirm either one Probably not, we most likely have to cover both views per NPOV or else be agnostic about when exactly the event starts and ends, as I was careful to do when writing both this article and Armenian genocide. Anyway, I'm not sure why were having this discussion as it is unlikely to end in getting consensus to include an infobox. (t · c) buidhe 17:13, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

Alright see ya, God bless. Etcnoel1 (talk) 19:09, 30 April 2025 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please add the following file in the "Legacy" section of the Sayfo. It's a monument in St Ephraim's Cathedral Sydney Australia that commemorates the Sayfo.

Loyalfreindlypersonh (talk) 04:06, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

 Done Day Creature (talk) 14:20, 20 September 2025 (UTC)

The events of Sayfo are the definitive “tell,” indicating that what the Turks sought was the elimination of Ottoman Christians in total. The Assyrians were not thought by the Turks to have a nationalistic agenda and did not engage in terrorism. They were so dispersed and demographically insignificant as to threaten no one.^[1] ~2026-78919-7 (talk) 10:26, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

Doubtful (t · c) buIdhe 14:52, 6 February 2026 (UTC)