Talk:Souliotes

Souliotes spoke Arvanitika alongside with Greek, not Albanian. There wasn't any "Souliote Albanian dialect" that they spoke. Arvanitika had speakers in Souli and many other places, there wasn't any different dialect only for Souliotes. I think it should be corrected to be more accurate. Cinpa83 (talk) 08:31, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

They spoke Arvanitika according to whom, sorry? I don't see any sources for that. The Souliotes have more to do with the Cham Albanians than the Arvanites in terms of dialect. In fact, if you read the Wiki article on the Cham Albanian dialect, you'd learn that Marko Boçari's Albanian-Greek dictionary ... was the biggest Cham Albanian dictionary of its time, with 1,484 lexemes.^[1] According to albanologist Robert Elsie, it is not of any particular literary significance, but is important for our knowledge of the now extinct Suliot-Albanian dialect,^[2] a sub-branch of the Cham dialect.^[1]

Besides, according to its article here on Wiki, Arvanitika is the variety of Albanian traditionally spoken by the Arvanites, a population group in Greece. Arvanitika was brought to southern Greece during the late Middle Ages by Albanian settlers who moved south from their homeland in present-day Albania in several waves. It's another dialectal variety of Albanian, so whether the Souliotes spoke Souliote Albanian or Arvanitika (which they didn't), it's still a dialect of the Albanian language. After all, both groups are of Albanian origin. Botushali (talk) 13:01, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

Some people here talked about Wikipedia articles having a "neutral stance" but then deleted a reference of mine saying that some Souliotes established in Souli after they left their Greek speaking villages. Why did you delete that if you still want to have a neutral article? I also added my source and I don't see where the problem is, especially when the whole article doesn't mention anything about other historians view Cinpa83 (talk) 12:57, 6 July 2025 (UTC)

2A00:23C5:FE1C:3701:7CD1:17E8:5D41:6ADD (talk) 17:14, 16 August 2025 (UTC)

According to multiple reliable historical sources, the Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian Greek-speaking community living in the mountainous region of Souli in Epirus. They maintained a distinct social organization characterized by local autonomy and martial traditions. The Souliotes became particularly prominent for their resistance against Ottoman authorities, especially during the rule of Ali Pasha, and later played a key role in the Greek War of Independence (1821–1829), aligning themselves with the emerging Greek nation.

Notable Souliote leaders, such as Markos Botsaris and Kitsos Tzavelas, are recognized in historical sources as Greek revolutionary figures. Their participation in the Greek Revolution, along with their Orthodox Christian faith and Greek language, supports their identification as part of the Greek people.

Sources:

- Thomas Gordon, History of the Greek Revolution. London: 1832. p. 45. - John Koliopoulos, Brigands with a Cause: Brigandage and Irredentism in Modern Greece (1821–1912). Oxford University Press, 1987. p. 102. - Richard Clogg, A Concise History of Greece. Cambridge University Press, 1992. p. 150. - Mark Mazower, The Balkans: A Short History. Penguin, 2000. p. 98. - François Pouqueville, Travels in Greece and Albania. London, 1813. Vol. II, p. 212. - Britannica, Souliot. Encyclopaedia Britannica: (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Souliot) Epirus92 (talk) 10:53, 27 November 2025 (UTC)

"their Orthodox Christian faith" How the heck would Orthodox Christianity make somewhat more or less Greek than someone else? The religion is largely irrelevant to the ethnicity, and the Albanians also include Orthodox populations. Dimadick (talk) 23:20, 28 November 2025 (UTC)

Greek identity is fundamentally based on Orthodoxy. This is the predominant reason for the assimilation of the Arvanites in Roumeli and the Peloponnese. The article in general doesn't seem to understand identity during the Ottoman Empire very well, implying that the Millet System existed since the beginning of Ottoman rule which is a misconception and making assumptions about what the term "Greek" refers to in Souliote-Russian correspondence. I'm not aware of "греки" ever being used by Russians to refer to non Greek groups in the Balkans for example. Also notions of ethnicity/nationhood very much existed even in pre-nationalist Epirus. If they didn't play a major role like the article asserts then there's no point even calling Souliotes "Albanian" since they didn't identify as such. I also don't understand why valid sources referring to refugees from Greek speaking villages moving to Souli are consistently removed, as are references to Hellenisation prior to the War of Independence. It's a biased article that reads completely differently from its Greek equivalent. Evangreenninja (talk) 15:50, 5 December 2025 (UTC)

Most references in this article come from reliable sources written by Greek historians. If there are differences between this article and Greek wikipedia, it is not because this article doesn't use reliable works by Greek historians, but rather the opposite. The article of Greek wikipedia doesn't differ from this article in key aspects as it describes in the intro that the Souliotes were Christian tribal groups of Albanian origin. The article in English wikipedia already discusses that the Souliotes who settled in Greece became part of the national identity of Greece, but there is no "Hellenization" of Souliotes in the 18th century, nor does it describe areas like Parasouli - mixed Albanian- and Greek- speaking villages near Souli - as Souliot. All historical and archival evidence we have strongly highlight that the Souliotes were just one of the many Albanian tribal formations in the western Balkans and before the 19th century and even after the dissolution of Souli as a tribal area, they were seen as Albanians. This description wasn't seen as a controversy at all in the 19th century, nor is it considered a controversy, a debate or a sign of bias today. As such, it is the consensus in bibliography. In general, the current version of the article was written after a comprehensive reading of the sources and the work of many editors, including valuable input from Greek-speakers who helped to use translated part of Greek sources which haven't been translated in other languages. There is a part which this article hasn't covered: Muslim Souliotes as they are discussed in bibliography as Chams of Thesprotia.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:57, 6 December 2025 (UTC)

Souli is part of Thesprotia anyway, but Cham Albanians were not limited to this region. Per the main article, their cultural area included part of Preveza and two settlements in Ioannina. Dimadick (talk) 00:46, 7 December 2025 (UTC)

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The Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian Albanian tribal community in the area of Souli in Epirus from the 16th century to the beginning of the 19th century, who via their participation in the Greek War of Independence came to identify with the Greek nation.

They originated from Albanian clans that settled in the highlands of Thesprotia in the Late Middle Ages and established an autonomous confederation dominating a large number of neighbouring villages in the mountainous areas of Epirus, where they successfully resisted Ottoman rule for many years. At the height of its power, in the second half of the 18th century, the Souliote confederacy is estimated to have consisted of up to 4,500 inhabitants. After the revolution, they migrated to and settled in newly independent Greece, and assimilated into the Greek people. The Souliotes were followers of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. They spoke the Souliotic dialect of Albanian and learnt Greek through their interaction with Greek-speakers.

Change it into

The Souliotes were an Orthodox Christian highland community based in the region of Souli in Epirus, active from the 16th century to the beginning of the 19th century. They formed a clan-based confederation of settlements in the mountainous areas of Thesprotia and became known for their long resistance to Ottoman authority.

Their society was organised around extended families and local alliances, and at its height in the second half of the 18th century the Souliote confederation is estimated to have numbered up to around 4,500 inhabitants. The Souliotes were followers of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and belonged to the broader Orthodox (Rum) world of the period.

In everyday life, many Souliotes spoke a local Albanian dialect, while Greek was widely used through church life, education, and interaction with neighbouring Greek-speaking populations. Importantly, the Souliotes also expressed a clear Greek political and cultural identity, including through self-identification as “Graikoi” (Greeks), and they played a prominent role in the Greek War of Independence. After the establishment of the independent Greek state, Souliote communities resettled in various parts of Greece and became integrated into its national life.

Reasons:

“Albanian tribal community”

“Albanian” reads like a modern national label, while what is historically safe to state is their social organisation (clans), geography (Souli/Epirus), and religion (Orthodox). If “Albanian” is used, it should be linguistic (“Albanian-speaking”), not ethnic-national.

“came to identify with the Greek nation” 

misleading implication that they were not Greek before 1821 and only “became Greek” later. Their own self-identification and their role in the Greek revolutionary movement support describing them as Greek-identifying already.

“originated from Albanian clans” 

Origin claims are often used polemically to force a modern national reading. Even if some lineages had migration roots, it does not define the group’s identity in the period. The rewritten version keeps what matters historically: local formation, autonomy, and resistance.

“assimilated into the Greek people”

“Assimilated” implies they were foreign to Greekness, which is politically loaded. “Integrated into the Greek state” is more neutral and historically accurate, because it describes state formation and resettlement, not “becoming Greek”. ~2026-32651-0 (talk) 01:27, 16 January 2026 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want made. Day Creature (talk) 15:01, 16 January 2026 (UTC)