Wikipedia talk:Basic copyediting

Hi Steven, I'd like to restore this quote, as it describes the ideal that copy editors should aim for. What's your objection to it?

According to Butcher's Copy-editing, "A good copyeditor is a rare creature: an intelligent reader and a tactful and sensitive critic; someone who cares enough about perfection of detail to spend time checking small points of consistency in someone else's work but has the good judgement not to waste time or antagonize the author by making unnecessary changes."^[1]

SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:50, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I mostly want to keep the page very concise. The intended audience of the page is people who are new to Wikipedia copyediting. They'll mostly have arrived via clicking the link in {{copyedit}} and will be seeking a scannable overview of how to help. Also, since the rest of the paragraph is trying to invite people to help, I'm not sure that "A good copyeditor is a rare creature" is the message we want to send to people. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 22:12, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

While I do agree that good copyeditors are rare creatures (self-serving grin here.. heh), this page is called "Basic copyediting." That quote would be more appropriate in a guideline page for the FA/GA/Peer review copyeditors over at WP:GOCE. Here, I think we should emphasize that there are glaringly obvious mistakes in many, many articles that don't require any expertise to fix – just basic knowledge of the English language. Maryana (WMF) (talk) 22:36, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I think the advice not to antagonize people with unnecessary changes might be good advice for new (and experienced) copy editors. One of the mistakes new copy editors make is the sense that "X is always wrong," then they go around removing all examples of X when there's no reason to, including when the removal leaves the sentence in a mess. Perhaps if the quote makes the lead too long it could go in a different section? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:11, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

That's a good point. There should probably be an etiquette section that also makes mention of the talk page. Good to let people know that if their copyedits are being reverted, they should discuss rather than edit war. Adding! Maryana (WMF) (talk) 23:49, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

 Done as a start: Wikipedia:Basic_copyediting#Etiquette. Feel free to add :) Maryana (WMF) (talk) 23:58, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Looks good. I've added the quote there instead of to the lead. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:04, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I really don't like that section. We're asking people to do some really simple stuff, and that section makes it sound like they need to stop and ask permission before fixing an incorrect "there/their". We don't want people to stop and get consensus. We want them to copyedit without being scared to change Wikipedia. The thoughtful, careful kind we want editing will be scared off or slowed down by that statement. The kind that blunders around will ignore it anyway. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 01:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

Hi Steven, I restored it because it's good advice, especially for new editors. The section says be bold, but also says if you're reverted, discuss first. I can't see any problem with that. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:42, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that it's not supposed to be a general editing etiquette guide. Let's keep it focused on copyediting, and what's necessary. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 23:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Again, you're not really engaging here. We need to justify additions to the page which make it longer and less readable, especially when they are not strictly related to basic copyediting, so if folks aren't going to defend it I'm going to remove as lacking consensus. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk

Template:Writing guides, at the bottom of the page, links to Wikipedia:Manual of Style. For pages like this one, intended for beginners, maybe there should be a version of that template (perhaps a "simplified=Y" parameter) that links to Wikipedia:Simplified Manual of Style instead. From there, editors can find the main Manual of Style if necessary. Art LaPella (talk) 18:33, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the following as it is in direct contradiction to MOS:CT, MOS:TM, and WP:ALLCAPS:

• Any published work should be spelled exactly as published, using symbols and any in-word capitalization as in the original, e.g., Piers Anthony's novel 0X is correctly spelled with the digit 0 (zero) instead of the letter O (upper-case o). Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks, do not attempt to ape the style (e.g. font color, typeface and other typographic effects) of the cover or promotional materials of a work.

--Rob Sinden (talk) 09:27, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

In the "Find articles that need copyediting" section, the link to Special:GettingStarted appears red, indicating that this special page doesn't have a working implementation yet. There's a project page WP:GettingStarted describing the (planned) feature; should the link be changed to point there? --SoledadKabocha (talk) 08:13, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, good catch. The Special page is no longer here, but the new version of GettingStarted is available to all new users. Steven Walling (WMF) • talk 20:52, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

American English and British English are not dialects as stated in the article. They are (national) varieties. A dialect is an informal everyday spoken form. Speakers of dialects then use the standard to which the dialect belongs when they need formal language, such as in print or giving a lecture. For example, a Yorkshireman may speak his own dialect informally but he will use British standard English when he writes. A Texan likewise in American English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by T A Francis (talk • contribs) 20:20, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Please sign your posts on Talk pages with four tildes. Also, please post at the bottom of Talk pages. The easiest way to do this is to click the "New Section" link at the top of the page.

I had already changed the word "dialect" to "variety" on this page before your post above. – Jonesey95 (talk) 02:25, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the section: How to do basic copyediting In step three

The sentence: Simple "Copy edit" if fine, but "Edited for tone" is even better Suggested replacement: A simple "Copy edit" is fine, but "Edited for tone" is even better Nee316 (talk) 20:57, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done EEng 20:59, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Wikipedia:Why Aren't These Pages Copy-edited. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. -- Tavix ^(talk) 00:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

I propose that we add these tab headers from WP:GOCE to this article. is that okay? --Sm8900 (talk) 04:27, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

I would not support this. The page is not part of the WikiProject. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:04, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree with User:Jonesey95...odd request.--Moxy 🍁 03:40, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

The words do NOT mean the same thing, per Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage. Yes, "utilize" can be overutilized, but recommending that "use" always be utilized in its place is wrong. - BilCat (talk) 22:47, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

From Merriam-Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage:Utilize is a distinct word having distinct implications. More than use, it suggests a deliberate decision or effort to employ something (or someone) for a practical purpose. It is commonly used and is standard. - BilCat (talk) 22:57, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

In the vast majority of cases, "use" is preferable to "utilize", and writers use the latter to sound fancy or erudite. Since it applies in most cases, the advice is good; good writers and editors will know when to use "utilize". I would be open to saying something like "in almost all cases..." or "do not write 'utilize' when 'use' is a better option". – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:04, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

My problem is with editors removing "utilized" when it is properly used, and citing this guide as the reason. I'm fine with clarifying the text, but what you suggest is still too vague to be useful, and still open to abuse. - BilCat (talk) 00:09, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I reverted your bold addition, per Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. You reverted me while discussion is in progress. Please undo your revert and follow the BRD process. Thanks.

If you are unhappy with the current wording, please propose a specific change that leaves the basic good advice in place while tempering it, as I have done. Some links to example edits showing editors changing "utilize" to "use" and citing this guide as the reason would also be helpful. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:13, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Reverted self, but added "Disputed" tag. For an example, see here. - BilCat (talk) 00:19, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

In the vast majority of cases, people don't use "utilize" for it's ever so slight distinction from "use", it is used just to use a big, fancy word where a simpler word works just as well. I am fine with keeping it when it is preferable to "use", but not when it is merely an acceptable alternative. Gfox88 (talk) 11:34, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

BilCat, thank you. Do you have proposed wording that would refine the current guidance? I suggested two rough-draft options above. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:45, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

How about, Do not write "utilize" unless there is a good reason that it is preferable in that specific instance to "use"? Although there are slight distinctions in the meaning, at least 99% of the people reading an article don't know them without looking them up. I had to, so I would imagine that most other people do too. So in the vast majority of cases, "use" is shorter, simpler, and means the exact same thing, therefore it is preferable. Gfox88 (talk) 12:43, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Your assertion is incorrect, and your own admitted ignorance about the correct use of a word is no excuse for continuing your campaign against its proper use. Please note that this is a how-to guide and it is not is part of the MOS. If you have trouble understanding big words, perhaps Simple English Wikipedia is the best place for you. - BilCat (talk) 16:58, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

BilCat, you have been asked repeatedly and politely to propose new wording, and you have so far declined to do so. Your most recent response borders on a personal attack; please comment on content, not on people. I have implemented a version of one of my proposals above, linking to a helpful usage explanation at the Wiktionary project. I hope that this addresses your objections. If not, propose wording that would refine the current guidance. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:18, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I didn't propose new wording because I object to its inclusion in the first place. That hasn't changed. I've submitted evidence from a modern usage guide to support this, and all I've been met with is unfounded supposition. My comments about Gfox may seem harsh, but I made them in good faith. The user has again claimed that this page is part of the MOS, per this edit summary, when it is not, while twice changing a legitimate use of the disputed word. - BilCat (talk) 17:40, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

The excerpt from the usage guide explains the exceptional circumstances in which "utilize" is a valid choice. The wiktionary link I added also explains some of the nuance, in more detail than is required in a brief guide such as this one. I thank you for raising this point, which was a valid concern; I hope that it has been addressed sufficiently. If a specific editor is making what you perceive as invalid copy-editing choices, please address those concerns directly with that editor, per Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:00, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Wikitionary is not a reliable source. You should already know that. And I disagree that the usage guide I cited is discussing "exceptional circumstances". I am addressing Gfox88 here because he has used this discussion as justification for his edits. But I will consider your advice when this issue comes up again, as it surely will. - BilCat (talk) 18:10, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

When our readers click through to the Wikitionary explanation, they will see two extensively sourced paragraphs about the usage of "utilize". If you know of a better summary of reliable sources on the usage of "utilize", by all means post it here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:18, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Point taken. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 20:11, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

I would like to ask that BilCat stop reverting my edits without providing rationale why his wording is preferable, not merely "acceptable" or "valid". I copyedit to make pages easier to understand, which includes using the shortest, simplest words that communicate clearly. Gfox88 (talk) 14:23, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

The best places to start are at the article's talk page or at the editor's talk page, not here. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:23, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I opened a discussion on Gfox88's talk page already, as you suggested before. - BilCat (talk) 19:29, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Wikipedia:5C. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 May 7#Wikipedia:5C until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:09, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The Delhi roit is an anti Hindu roit. Lolarot (talk) 13:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

To editor Lolarot:  Not done: this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the page Wikipedia:Basic copyediting. If possible, please make your request at the talk page for the article concerned. If you cannot edit the article's talk page, you can instead make your request at Wikipedia:Requests for page protection#Current requests for edits to a protected page. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 13:52, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

Is there some reason this article does not make it clear that changing the meaning of a text is not copy editing and should not be given a "ce" edit summary? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 20:34, 11 August 2021 (UTC) "Not" added to text by Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 00:59, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

It's a how-to guide, not a what-it-is guide. The link in the first sentence to copy editing explains what copy editing is and is not. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:27, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

@Jonesey95:Thank you for your response to the first part of my question. What are your thoughts regarding the second part suggesting this article should make it clear that "changing the meaning of a text ... should not be given a 'ce' edit summary"? Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 00:59, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

That sounds like an individual behavioral issue that is best addressed with the individual, by directing them to the guidance at Help:Edit summary. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:58, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Add a period after the sentence "Watch out for jargon and overly long sentences, which can reduce readability". 2003:E7:4716:32E1:5DF5:3E99:B0C2:B229 (talk) 19:43, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done Thank you, - FlightTime (open channel) 19:51, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Sentence "Grammarly and LanguageTool have free plugins for popular web browsers that checks spelling, grammar, usage, and punctuation" needs the S removed from word checks

 Done. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:33, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Grammarly is a service that collects and retains all of its user input. By installing the browser extension, all of the non-password data you type in the browser is collected and sent to Grammarly's servers, whether you actively use the extension or not. They go to great lengths and twist words to convince users that that is not the case.^[1] A project like Wikipedia that prides itself in free information should not be recommending a tool like this. Wpscatter (talk) 06:30, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Or maybe recommend only the web-based option. The cite linked in your footnote (which, ultimately, is advertising copy) says:

There are many ways to use Grammarly, the browser extension, the app, and even a web-based tool. Except for the web-based tool, they all suffer from the same underlying problem, lack of ongoing consent to collect the data they need to perform their service.

See also a Malwarebytes commentary:

[. . .] there are many people who need a grammar checker and like the features Grammarly offers. [...] However, there’s also a danger when using something like Grammarly of having something shared that shouldn’t be… like, for example, messages from an encrypted messaging app like Messages or Signal.

- Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:49, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

I disagree that the source is advertising copy. It wasn't written by a Grammarly competitor, it was written by a security team. But it is difficult to find rock-solid sources for things like this, considering Grammarly obviously won't say something like it themselves, and "real" news sites fear a lawsuit were they to accuse something like that.

Anyway, I'm on board with recommending the web-based version only, as long as it clarifies the reason. I agree that the issue is the lack of ongoing informed consent for all your data to be read and collected. Wpscatter (talk) 19:04, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

This tells me that we shouldn't be recommending Grammarly at all; also see WP:Grammarly. All the best, Miniapolis 22:23, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

When I websearched Zachary Ty Bryan, Wikipedia listed his character in Home Improvement as "Bryan" The character'e name is "Brad", not Bryan. SarwebTul (talk) 13:38, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

@SarwebTul: Hi. Thanks for bringing this to attention. I can't find the error you are describing. There are several different articles that mention the character. Could you please link or indicate the exact Wikipedia article where you saw it? --DB1729^talk 14:46, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

It seems like you've mentioned "Wikipedia talk:Basic copyediting," which suggests you might be referring to a discussion or page on Wikipedia related to basic copyediting guidelines. Wikipedia talk pages are where editors communicate and discuss various aspects of Wikipedia articles and policies. If you have a specific question or topic related to basic copyediting on Wikipedia, please provide more details, and I'll be glad to help! Maqsoodshahmanzoor (talk) 16:05, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

The article on Jimmy Wales uses mostly "on Wikipedia" except for a quote in which the subject himself uses "in Wikipedia". Is there any guidance on the matter, please? "On Wikipedia" has 15k instances while "in Wikipedia" has only 2k -- should the latter be copy edited? Thanks. fgnievinski (talk) 02:18, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It depends on the context. They mean two different things. Many of those "in Wikipedia" instances are valid, such as "While it would appear the passage in Wikipedia is a plagiarism of the book", "sourced information in Wikipedia articles", and instances that are quotations and titles of research papers. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:00, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Large language model policy § RFC. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:31, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

When I'm giving feedback to my students' draft contributions, I'd like to indicate sentences that are verbose and need to be edited for concision. The Verbose template was deleted over a decade ago, and I'm surprised there's no alternative. I presently use the copy edit-inline template but the reason/for is only viewable in a tiny pop-up which is often obscured. Is there a way to make the existing's template more visible? Or, might there be support for a verbose template? -Reagle (talk) 19:15, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

The reason text is visible as plain text to editors when they click the Edit link to fix the section or article. Wikipedia is not meant to be an all-purpose platform for instruction, so we do not employ proofreaders' marks or symbols; we have to strike a balance between presentation of pages to normal readers (i.e., the vast majority of our page viewers) and editors who might want to improve articles. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:39, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello everyone. I read in the article the comment that a good copy editor is rare. This indicates that a few good copy editors have been identified. Might the work of some of these copy editors be also identified so that we could view some of their outstanding examples? I believe this could serve others well. Most kind regards to all, Hu Nhu (talk) 21:06, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Should this be added to the article? For the full form of "can't", use "cannot" instead of "can not". ⋆｡˚꒰ঌ Clara A. Djalim ໒꒱˚｡⋆ 15:21, 22 August 2024 (UTC)