Talk:Broadway Jones (performer)

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by TarnishedPath talk 06:06, 21 July 2025 (UTC)

• ... that the song "Ol' Man River" from Show Boat was originally written with the intent of having it sung by Broadway Jones?

• • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Washington University in St. Louis, Template:Did you know nominations/Harriet (novel)
  • Comment: Moved to article space on May 20, 2025

4meter4 (talk) 20:53, 21 May 2025 (UTC).

• Article is new and long enough (created May 20), NPOV, has an interesting hook. One QPQ is done, but one additional is needed due to backlog mode being active. Article is inline and reliably sourced to a book from Oxford University Press. No image. Earwig shows 3.8% (violation unlikely). Chetsford (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

@Chetsford I added my second QPQ above. Best.4meter4 (talk) 00:48, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Good to go! Chetsford (talk) 04:20, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

@4meter4 and Chetsford: I have pulled this per WT:DYK. I note 4meter4's comment that "Ol' Man River" is often cited as the beginning of the modern musical and I suggest adding a source to that effect (for example, that "a song often cited as the beginning of the modern musical" was written..."); otherwise, this needs a new hook.--Launchballer 14:52, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

@Launchballer That is not what I said. Show Boat as a whole is cited as the beginning of the modern musical. "Ol' Man River" is the best known song from that show. There are many sources for that, but if you look at the Musical theatre article Show Boat is the only work to get its own subsection. Best.4meter4 (talk) 15:01, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. I suggest "that the best known song from a musical often cited...".--Launchballer 15:07, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

The hook isn’t about Ol Man River but about Broadway Jones. The point was that this very famous song was written for his voice. It’s the most interesting thing about him in my opinion.4meter4 (talk) 15:10, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

• I won’t have internet access this week as I am traveling to a remote area with no cell phone reception or internet. It may be a while before I can think up something new. I will say I am a bit dismayed by the outcome here as I don’t think the song is obscure. There aren’t very many songs that have entire books written about them, and this is one of them.4meter4 (talk) 15:17, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

"I am a bit dismayed by the outcome here as I don’t think the song is obscure." I share your perplexity. Chetsford (talk) 15:51, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

• I think this misses the actually interesting part of the story. Lots of songs are written with particular performers in mind, but to have a song in a musical written especially for you yet turn down the part seems much more intriguing. I suggest something like "...despite the song Ol Man River from the musical Showboat having been written with him in mind, Broadway Jones did not join the cast?" --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 18:37, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

While that seems like a fine hook, the source only says he didn't join the original cast. Unless I'm missing something, we would need a source that established he didn't join the touring cast or any revival casts as well. I suppose we could modify it by saying "join the original cast" but that gets a little clunky. Chetsford (talk) 20:13, 23 June 2025 (UTC)

Launchballer pulled this per a WT:DYK discussion. @Chetsford: How does this ALT hook sound?

ALT1 ... that singer Broadway Jones got his nickname from always wearing sharp looking suits?

Note that 4meter4 will be away for a week per their comment at the WT:DYK discussion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk ·contributions) 00:14, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

It seems less interesting than the original one. Ol Man River is probably the most iconic song in the Great American Songbook while Broadway Jones is (I think - at least to me) relatively unknown in 2025 unless one is immersed in the history of vaudeville. But I guess it's better than nothing. Chetsford (talk) 04:28, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

I don't see how that even makes sense. What's the connection?----User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:39, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

Probably from the culture of the New York theatre district at that time being connected so closely to fashion.4meter4 (talk) 23:31, 27 June 2025 (UTC)

Seems more like a nonsequiter than something interesting. The only reason that would get me to click is to find out what it was supposed to be saying. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:43, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

I would assume that if he had later joined the cast, the source would have said so. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 17:08, 25 June 2025 (UTC)

• Comment. I am fine with alt1.4meter4 (talk) 23:31, 27 June 2025 (UTC)
• I'm reposting this here as it might be better for this hook's context. @Launchballer and Narutolovehinata5 It was just pointed out to me that "Ol' Man River" is on the AFI's 100 Years...100 Songs list and a recording of it was inducted into the Grammy Awards' Grammy Hall of Fame in 2006. The song has apparently been recorded by major artists in Europe and India as well as by Americans like Bing Crosby and Frank Sinatra. I strongly urge you based on this strong evidence to reconsider promoting the original hook as the concerns raised are not valid in light of the evidence.4meter4 (talk) 20:06, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

To be honest, I don't understand the attachment to the original hook, because even with all that context, those accolades do not matter if the reader or audience is not familiar with the song. I'd be open to a variant of ALT0 that mentions it being on the list, but I don't think vanilla ALT0 works even with the context. One rule of thumb for hooks I have is, "If a hook requires an explanation on the nomination page, it usually does not meet DYKINT." Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:28, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

But the hook doesn’t require explanation. I think the point is that your lack of familiarity is not an accurate predictor of the general public’s familiarity in this case. This is a very famous song that a large percentage of readers on the English wiki will know. The accolades indicate fame and are a better predictor of that criteria than any individual wikipedian. Extrapolating your own lack of knowledge out to a wider audience is not a good way to operate in cases where there is evidence of wide fame/recognition on a given topic. At some point we all have to acknowledge that there are elements of popular culture / common knowledge that for whatever reason we as individuals may have missed but the general public overall has not. Applying specialized knowledge onto a well known topic isn’t a good idea.4meter4 (talk) 22:57, 28 June 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: It seems this nomination process has stalled, and by next week it will probably timed out. I propose coming with new and more interesting hooks if possible, or at the very least a better variation of the original hook. Here I propose one:

ALT0-B... that Broadway Jones refused to sing "Ol' Man River" from the musical Show Boat because the pay was too low, despite the fact the song was written for him?

NeoGaze (talk) 14:15, 15 July 2025 (UTC)

ALT0-C... that Broadway Jones refused to portray Joe in the original production of Show Boat because the pay was too low, despite the fact that the song "Ol' Man River" was created for him?

@4meter4: I like this one! Now if another person could check it out and confirm if it is good enough, then we can move on. NeoGaze (talk) 17:12, 15 July 2025 (UTC)

I do think that ALT0b is an improvement over the original hook since it does not require knowledge of the song or the musical (I've specified that Show Boat is a musical in the hook). I will approve ALT0b once 4meter4 has given approval and the article is edited for the hook to meet DYKHFC (right now the relevant sentence is lacking a footnote). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 08:39, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5 I duplicated the citation for the earlier sentence as the citation at the end of the paragraph was the source for that fact. Technically ALT0-C is more accurate that ALT0-B and better reflects the source. He wasn't refusing to sing a particular song but refusing an entire role in a musical that encompassed singing many songs and acting.4meter4 (talk) 14:52, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

My preference was for ALT0b because: 1. it's a slightly shorter hook, and 2. if as you said the song is well-known, then exactly what role he performed as is less important than the fact that he declined to participate in the play (I imagine far more people would recognize the song than the role of Joe). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 22:31, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

I think ALT-C is a bit more accurate, if length is an issue "because the pay was too low" could be reduced to "due to low pay". CMD (talk) 08:50, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

For the sake of making it hookier I am ok with ALT0b even if the emphasis is slightly off. I'd also be ok with Chipmunkdavis's suggestion. I'll leave it to the reviewer/promoter to decide. Best.4meter4 (talk) 16:44, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

I think what CMD has proposed would be the best course of action. NeoGaze (talk) 20:49, 17 July 2025 (UTC)

There are other ways to shorten it too, "despite the fact that the song "Ol' Man River" was created for him?" could be trimmed to "despite the song "Ol' Man River" being created for him?", "refused to portray Joe in the original production of" could be trimmed to "refused to join the original production of". A promoter can tweak to best fit the set. Narutolovehinata5, are we okay to move this off noms and to approved? CMD (talk) 03:52, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

Let's see what you've got. I really don't think mentioning Joe by name is necessary, but I am amicable to a shorter version of ALT0-C that keeps the "he declined the entire role/production" point. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:28, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

ALTX... that Broadway Jones refused to portray Joe in the original production of Show Boat due to low pay, despite the fact that the song "Ol' Man River" was created for him?

ALTY... that Broadway Jones refused to join the original production of Show Boat due to low pay, despite the fact that the song "Ol' Man River" was created for him?

ALTZ... that Broadway Jones refused to join the original production of Show Boat due to low pay, despite the song "Ol' Man River" being created for him?

CMD (talk) 05:26, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

Would it be okay to add "the play" before Show Boat? I can approve ALTZ if you're fine with that. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 07:57, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

ALTZa... that Broadway Jones refused to join the original production of the play Show Boat due to low pay, despite the song "Ol' Man River" being created for him?

ALTZb... that Broadway Jones refused to join the original production of the musical Show Boat due to low pay, despite the song "Ol' Man River" being created for him?

Play/musical options. CMD (talk) 08:30, 18 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm almost ready to approve ALTZa/ALTZb (I will leave the final decision to the promoter), I'm just waiting for 4meter4 to provide an excerpt that confirms the "declined due to low pay" information. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:41, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5 On page 208 of Carlin in the last paragraph it says, "Jones tragically turned down a part in what would prove to be an epoch making musical, Show Boat." On page 209 in the top paragraph it says "The producers wouldn't meet his asking price, and so Broadway lost his chance to appear in the production." There's also a lengthy quote of his directions to his negotiating talent agent about what salary he would accept for the part of Joe on page 209 with him saying that his agent should ask for $700 a week but not take anything less than $500 a week because he was making that much already touring with Eubie Blake. Best.4meter4 (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. I am approving ALTZa and ALTZb only. Rest of the review is per Chetsford. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:46, 19 July 2025 (UTC)