Dang, I'm doing so much editing/adding that you think I know the woman? XD that's a new one.
I completely get wanting to keep things concise, and in retrospect I get why you cleaned up some of that. (Weak source for her global sales estimates)
But the main excuse used to delete like half of the sourced content is so flimsy.
What does "too much promotional stuff" even mean when it's literally a page about her career?
I noticed some edits that have been there long before I ever created an account were deleted in the process, and I guess I'm just confused as to why you'd delete artists that she went on record to say inspired her from the artistry section, especially since most of the names you deleted have been there for years (the only one I added was Sade, and the source is her directly saying Sade inspired her in an interview....). You also left residue from cut off citations in the process...
Also, why delete artists that said she inspired them from the "impact/legacy" section? I added like 2 and half paragraphs summarizing *from music sites* (billboard, Pitchfork, etc.) that elaborated on her artistry and like 10 to 15 artists that referenced her ... with sources ... over a 9 month span. How is that excessive promotion or conflict of interest? I mean, if you don't think the artist shouting her out in a youtube interview or on social media is enough that's a fair opinion, but I've never added names without an accompanying source (either from a big music site or the artists themselves). I ONLY add if a music site lists her or if the artist themself said she influenced/inspired them, AND if the source for it is linkable.
Multiple artists have recently had that section expanded upon, to reflect transitions in their careers. Missy Elliot & Nicki Minaj for example have had some pretty large updates to their "legacy" sections recently (from the same few people that did the research to expand upon it). I haven't done anything differently from that for Ciara's page....
Outside of expanding on those two sections of her page with what amounts to maybe 4 paragraphs and restructuring a few existing sentences, what have I done to damage this page and get 9 months of edits deleted? I've also deleted information whose sources I felt were weak in retrospect and cleaned up *actual* vandalism I found that no one did anything about...
Now the one thing I think I am somewhat guilty of after doing some research is wikipuffing (using terms with positive or negative tone rather than neutral), and I can definitely work to avoid that going forward.
I plan to add back some of her influencers and influencees in the coming weeks when I have the time, because I flat out disagree with some of the sloppy deletion that took place. I'll wait for some elaboration before I act tho.
NotPlanningOnDoingMuch (talk) 22:45, 27 February 2022 (UTC)
- I removed stuff that was sourced only to Twitter, Instagram and YouTube because it seemed like a passing mention, not important enough relative to the guidelines at WP:SECONDARY and WP:SOCIALMEDIA. I also removed an AllMusic feature called "Similar Artists, Influenced By, Followers" because it is unreliable, machine-generated, not written by humans. I took out https://twobees.org/layton-greene-colorism/ because it was self-published by "Miss2bees", not a known journalist. I shifted some overly promotional wording that you had added such as "zeitgeist"—we're just talking about a singer, not a spirit of the age. Binksternet (talk) 01:02, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Ok, the last few sentences are hilarious, and I was trifling thinking those words didn't sound rediculous XD. So I apologize for that.
Now in regards to youtube videos as sources, Wikipedia:Video links said YouTube link are referencable if appropriate. In the context of these particular artists citing others as an inspo or being cited, I think that would be a perfectly appropriate use of those sources. These links are not sources used to describe career or life happenings. They are strictly within the context of someone's artistry and contain snippets of those people talking about it. I can still get articled sources for some of those artists tho since you have an aversion to YouTube as a source where wiki itself does not. The same can be applied to the handful of twitter sources used in the legacy section. There's no reasonable doubt to the authenticity of someone like latto breaking down why she was inspired to pursue music by Ciara through Twitter. Especially since she didn't *need* to make that post and said "I don't cite her as an influence as much as I should". No comment on that "bees" source. There was a video inside of that, so I'll just upload the interview link itself instead, since it's more direct and way more valid than sourcing the website.
As far as AllMusic goes, someone else on your page asked about it and you never addressed its validity. They were trying to add more genres to an album and you basically disagreed with them about those genres and deleted some stuff. That's it. SO many pages refer to it for other artists (Ciara herself listed under those pages). So now all of a sudden it's invalid and random? XD. It's a no for me, and I'm restoring those references, where relevant.
Thanks for the explanation and post on my talk page tho. I can and will work with that in mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NotPlanningOnDoingMuch (talk • contribs) 13:19, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:WEIGHT are two more applicable guidelines. The first one says we should not have indiscriminate lists, the second one says the mass of information presented in the article should properly represent the literature in terms of balance. If Tinashe is reported by actual reporters to be influenced by Ciara, then we have found proper weight. One Insta shout-out isn't enough. Binksternet (talk) 13:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
"Face" of a genre
NPODM, in your recent edit, you provided some better sources for certain of the influence names, but the first thing I saw was an exaggeration of the source followed by a violation of WP:SYNTH. You said "Ciara is considered one of the faces of beat-driven and crunk influenced R&B." The source is a Time magazine piece that doesn't support your text. Time says "Once billed as the first lady of Crunk&B, she’s become one of the most reliable suppliers of frothy, light-on-its-feet party music, mixing the freshest parts of R&B and hip-hop with the drum-machine beats of decades past." That doesn't mean she is a "face" of a genre. Time says she was "billed" as such, which is a left-handed compliment. The magazine is commenting about how she was marketed, not what she is at her core. You followed that with a synthesis of sources: "Resultantly, artists that use similar elements in their music like FKA Twigs, Jhené Aiko, and Tinashe were compared to Ciara early in their careers." The Pitchfork and NYT sources you cite do not say that the comparisons were made because she was "one of the faces" of a genre. The source reviewing FKA Twigs only mentions Ciara in passing—useless here. The source talking about Jhené Aiko says that Ciara "may have" influenced Aiko—not such a ringing endorsement, nor anything about Ciara being a "face". The source describing Tinashe says she has had "small victories" in her not-very-original career path: "Tinashe has taken a path charted by Janet Jackson, Aaliyah, Ciara and others". This says nothing about how Tinashe notionally was inspired by Ciara because Ciara was a "face" of a genre. Binksternet (talk) 21:26, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- Also, the NYT review of Tinashe says some negative things about Ciara ("And over the last few years, Ciara has tried a version of what Tinashe is now doing. But Ciara has always been more preoccupied with the body than the heart. Her lack of vocal presence guarantees that it is easier to connect with her music physically than emotionally.") which makes me think that more negative reviews should be brought to this biography to satisfy the hard policy of WP:Neutral point of view. If editors here have been ignoring negative reviews, then we have a big problem. Binksternet (talk) 21:45, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Ok, now you're just being petty. The second source specifically called Ciara a face of crunk n b, which is a form of beat driven R&B. And YOU were the one that made the edit to call her "the face" of "crunk flavored" R&B. I said it was a signature of her artistry. Now you're mad that I'm working with YOUR verbiage?
As far as "synthing" goes, I have no issues removing that portion all together. Granted, those sources literally compared those artists to Ciara and a handful of others. I don't see how saying those artists were compared to her early in their careers is a stretch.
You're sending extremely mixed messages with that last paragraph. You used the source implying something negative about both Tinashe and Ciara as an excuse to delete it but then you also said Ciara's page needs more negative content about her to balance things out? What are you trying to say? You're not even making sense.
The source noted that Tinashe is following in Ciara, Aaliyah, & Janet's footsteps, and I followed it with an interview by MusicXclusives where she's asked about Ciara and says that she DOES take inspiration from Ciara and other talented artists that bring "cool things" to the table. That section of the interview was put at the forefront so it's not just a "passing" mention. Tinashe/Ciara comparisons are not uncommon at all, but I tried to work with you and sift out sources that I knew you'd probably delete. Only for you to not use critical thinking skills and delete a reference to The New York Times. And by your standards, most artists would be mentioned in "passing" since no one really says more than 2 or three sentences when describing their influences. Are you gonna go and delete a bunch of stuff from Ciara's contemporaries' pages? Most of their sources are the same...
And how is it "extra promotional content" (which you like to call alot of things) to include two sentences from a billboard write up on a song? Do you know what ACTUAL bloating looks like on other pages? Whole paragraphs stretched from an artist saying in a sentence that they were inspired from (insert artist).
And if you know that most of the new sources I added were adequate....WHY DELETE THEM. Instead of simply deleting the few sources you personally disagreed with, you deleted everything ... you're not working properly with the Wikipedia:Content removal guidelines. You are deleting validly sourced information based one your arbitrary opinions, most of which a bent over backwards interpretation of the pages you keep sending me.
What's really the problem dude, because I'm not doing this edit war b.s. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NotPlanningOnDoingMuch (talk • contribs) 22:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- My aim is to uphold WP:NPOV and keep various musical artist biographies from becoming too hagiographic. Your word "zeitgeist" sparked my mass removals. Rather than making mass restorations of puffery/promotional language, let's take it a piece at a time. Don't try to stitch it all together to create an overarching story not found in any source. And let's start introducing the negative reviews for balance.
- Certainly Tinashe was influenced by Ciara, but we should also say that Ciara ended up copying Tinashe's new style in response to Ciara's career stagnation. The two things are connected. Binksternet (talk) 22:55, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
Ok. Sorry for getting a bit heated. I respect that neutrality is your priority, and I agree that it's extremely important when it comes to giving information. If you agree that Tinashe was influenced by Ciara, why can't I include the sources? I guess I'm just confused how putting sources that clearly show Tinashe was influenced by Ciara is violating neutrality.
Most legacy sections focus strictly on whatever impact an artist left. They don't talk about who they "copied", that's normally reserved for the artistry section.
And I don't recall any source saying Ciara copied Tinashe. That source through shade at Ciara's artistry but it didn't say she was influenced by her, which doesn't make much sense either way since Ciara's been in the industry a decade before Tinashe. That and their overall career trajectories don't match that inference.
The source said "and over the last few years, Ciara has tried a version of what Tinashe is now doing."
Meaning she's already been doing what Tinashe is now trying. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NotPlanningOnDoingMuch (talk • contribs) 23:53, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
- How could he misinterpret something like what was written in the article you produced? I To turn around write, "we should also say that Ciara ended up copying Tinashe's new style" from an article that wrote, "and over the last few years, Ciara has tried a version of what Tinashe is now doing" is concerning.
- Everything has been documented and screenshot. We're not gonna play games of neutrality, when the evidence shows Binksternet has only pushed for negativity. The game is over. MainCiaraFan (talk) 08:27, 7 September 2025 (UTC)
Also, if you DO revert my edit, can you atleast leave the sources to GQ, Paper, Apple, Billboard, Pitchfork etc. next time. It doesn't make sense to revert good sources of artists saying Ciara was their inspo.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by NotPlanningOnDoingMuch (talk • contribs) 23:04, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
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