The article states: "Deserts are expanding, while heat waves and wildfires are becoming more common."
The phenomenon of "global greening," characterized by a net increase in the Earth's Leaf Area Index (LAI), is well-documented in recent peer-reviewed literature as a concurrent trend with global warming.
The Consensus Review: Piao et al. (2020): This is arguably the most comprehensive secondary source available for Wikipedia purposes. It synthesizes decades of satellite data and modeling to explain the "greening Earth" phenomenon. Key Findings: The study confirms a significant global increase in vegetation greenness since the 1980s. It attributes roughly 70% of this greening to the CO₂ fertilization effect, where increased atmospheric carbon dioxide enhances photosynthesis (Piao et al., 2020). Secondary Drivers: Climate change (warming and altered precipitation) accounts for about 28% of the trend, while nitrogen deposition and land-use management contribute the remainder (Piao et al., 2020). Reference: Piao, S., Wang, X., Park, T., Chen, C., Lian, X., He, Y., ... & Myneni, R. B. (2020). Characteristics, drivers and feedbacks of global greening. Nature Reviews Earth & Environment, 1(1), 14-27. https://doi.org/10.1038/s43017-019-0001-x
Land-Use Management Focus: Chen et al. (2019) While often cited as a primary study, this paper functions as a major synthesis of satellite data (MODIS) that re-evaluated the "human" factor in global greening. Key Findings: This research highlighted that China and India alone accounted for one-third of the global greening between 2000 and 2017, largely through ambitious reforestation programs and intensive agriculture (Chen et al., 2019). This source is vital for Wikipedia sections discussing the anthropogenic vs. natural causes of greening. Reference: Chen, C., Park, T., Wang, X., Piao, S., Xu, B., Chaturvedi, R. K., ... & Myneni, R. B. (2019). China and India lead in greening of the world through land-use management. Nature Sustainability, 2(2), 122-129. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41893-019-0220-7
Theoretical and Foundational Review: Zhu et al. (2016) Although older, this meta-analysis remains the foundational reference for quantifying the dominance of CO₂ fertilization. Key Findings: By using 10 global ecosystem models, the study showed that greening is observable over 25% to 50% of the global vegetated area, while "browning" (vegetation loss) is observed in less than 4% (Zhu et al., 2016). Reference: Zhu, Z., Piao, S., Myneni, R. B., Huang, M., Zeng, Z., Canadell, J. G., ... & Zuo, Z. (2016). Greening of the Earth and its drivers. Nature Climate Change, 6(8), 791-795. https://doi.org/10.1038/nclimate3004
Contemporary Trends and Record Greenness: Sun et al. (2024/2025) Recent research indicates that despite ongoing warming, the greening trend hit new peaks in the current decade. Key Findings: 2020 was identified as the "greenest year" in modern satellite records (2001–2020), primarily due to growth in boreal and temperate regions (Sun et al., 2025). This was attributed to rising CO₂ and warmer winters in the Northern Hemisphere extending the growing season. Reference: Sun, Y., Zhang, Y., et al. (2025). Earth’s record-high greenness and its attributions in 2020. Remote Sensing of Environment.
AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 15:24, 24 April 2026 (UTC)
- The above really looks like the output of AI to me. AlejandroMuller50, could you please confirm that you wrote the above without assistance? --Guy Macon (talk) 12:31, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Last October the same new editor made four lengthy comments of a similar nature (and possibly AI-generated) related to climate change at Talk:List of common misconceptions about science, technology, and mathematics. NightHeron (talk) 14:07, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- The sources are at least real but phrasing
source available for Wikipedia purposes
are very much flagging concern. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:03, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Oh just seen that they've started more threads above.
Thank you for engaging in discussion here. Please remember that on Wikipedia our preferred methodology is discussion not reverts
also has the smell of LLM generation. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:04, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- "Thank you for engaging in discussion here. Please remember that on Wikipedia our preferred methodology is discussion not reverts" 100% me. You do know that AI does not just pass the Turing test, it actually successfully makes the other person look like the other AI 85% of the time? AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 15:28, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Doesn't matter what you "smell". The sources are either rs or not, they are either relevant or not.
- They are rs, and they are relevant, desertification is one of the main concern with human caused climate change. The paper literally says that manmade c02 is playing a large part in the greening.
- How/who decides what is ai?
- (Excuse my grammar, english is my 3rd language) ~2026-36292-96 (talk) 15:49, 23 June 2026 (UTC)
- Nothing about his comment should leave you to believe that it's ai. You are accusing another user.
- Now when i go onto wikipedia talk pages, every comment gets dismissed as ai. ~2026-36292-96 (talk) 14:57, 23 June 2026 (UTC)
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
- Hi Cdjp1. Thank you so much for having the sincerity and taking the time to look into this. I can understand other editors skepticism, but as you noted, the scientific facts challenge many people's misconception, leading to the desire to dismiss reality as slop. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 15:32, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I said nothing of
scientific facts , so claiming I noted such is nonsense. It would be appreciated if you corrected your comment to strike the falshood. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:13, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- "The sources are at least real" -Cdjp1
- Cdjp1, do you intend to correct your following comment?: " Thank you for engaging in discussion here. Please remember that on Wikipedia our preferred methodology is discussion not reverts also has the smell of LLM generation."
- Cdjp1, do you have any constructive comment to this thread's actual discussion, which is the scientific fact that Crop Yields and Greening have not stopped their continuous growth year over year, including during the last several decades of Global Warming?
- AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:21, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- The fact that you seem to be unable to distinguish between
The sources are at least real and a statement on scientific facts (the merits and validity of the sources and their research) is concerning. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:26, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Your evasion to my question is noted. The fact you seem to confuse my statements is concerning. Do you have anything constructive to add to the actual discussion of this thread or not? Regardless if agree or not, the sources are real, as you stated, and it is indeed a scientific fact that Net Greening and Crop Yield growth has been constant during the latest decades of warming. Facts do care about feelings, insinuations that the facts are wrong is concerning. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:35, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I have not insinuated that the papers are wrong. Attempting to tu quoque is simply a waste of time. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:47, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I used the word insinuated the way you used it. Sorry if that confuses you. Do you have anything constructive to add to the actual discussion of this thread or not? AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Except no, despite you claiming that you
stated clearly that the sentence is 100% wrong at no point in your original comment did you actually state that the sentence was wrong. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:57, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- You sorry you are confused. To completely clear, the Global is Greening, some deserts are growing, as always. The "Deserts are expanding" is 100% wrong. Do you have anything constructive to add to the actual discussion of this thread or not? AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:07, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
deserts are growing = deserts are expanding . -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:24, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- By that reasoning: "deserts are shrinking" = "deserts are contracting".
- I thinking you stating you have nothing constructive to add to the subject area. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 18:51, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- By that reasoning, yes. Synonyms are synonyms. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:09, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- Yep, pretty much, which is why your reasoning really does not add anything constructive the subject area, which is the articles current forum like nature and climate denial of the fact that year over year the Crop Yields and Net Greening, not desertification, have continue their non-stop march of progress, even during the last decades of Global Warming. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:41, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- You are the one who has agreed that deserts are growing, while declaring it is incorrect to say they are expanding. And you have just agreed that growing and expanding are synonymous terms. So, why do you agree that they are expanding while claiming that
"deserts are expanding" is 100% wrong ? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 07:57, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Notice AM50 has been blocked, so no need to discuss further. Let's see if we can find a good sentence + sourcing on deserts below. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 08:54, 27 April 2026 (UTC)
- Notice how not one single person below had any substantive retort to the fact that is an extremely valid update suggestion to the article. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 15:33, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Nobody is under any obligation whatsoever to respond to AI-generated posts. If you are incapable of writing coherently in your own words, please find somewhere other than Wikipedia to dump your next-word-guesser slop. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:53, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
Notice how AndyTheGrump capitulated the he was incapable of any substantive retort self-describes his type of style as that of an inability to write coherently on his own without a next-word-guesser slop. Just shows he has never been interested in contributing to an the English language encyclopedia. ~2026-33166-42 (talk)! — Preceding undated comment added 20:34, 3 June 2026 (UTC)
- While the above seems to confuse desertification and global greening, there is a point in double checking whether this is still accurately representing the literature. The sources are from 2009 and 2019 and these kinds of patterns are messy. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 17:22, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Look at the massive denial they are in. https://www.creaf.cat/en/articles/world-has-become-greener-over-past-33-years#:~:text=Earth%20is%20now%20greener%20than,scale%20which%20the%20study%20bolsters Notice how the PhD's cannot even produce one single reliable source to contradict the fact that net greening, NOT desertification, continues year after year. Notice also how they dismiss Wikipedia:Reliable sources without reason and display their ignorance of it. Navigating the world based on pure gut feeling must be so much less stressful than having to read all those pesky peer-reviewed journals. They must have a secret lab in their basement that's already debunked thirty years of CSIC data. I'd love to see the spreadsheets. Or may be its the classic 'I don't recognize the acronym, therefore it’s fake' defense. It’s a very efficient way to keep ones worldview uncluttered by facts. I hope 'trust me, bro' isn't our new standard of evidence. But it’s certainly is a time-saver compared to actually checking institutional pedigree. The person making the an accusation of unreliable source without grounding is almost always the one who has not read Wikipedia:Reliable sourcesAlejandroMuller50 (talk) 17:29, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Have you actually read Wikipedia:Reliable sources? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:39, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Also notice how the ones who falsely imply others do not "meaningfully contribute" and falsely imply others are "posting vacuous evidence free personal attacks" are the very ones guilty of that actual behavior. They are of no serious concern and non-responders not adhering to our standards and are incapable of sticking to the actual content. They achieve absolutely nothing and only are disruptors of our Wikipedia. The best course is to ignore such destroyers of the project.
The only valid response here are to those addressing the scientific fact that Crop Yields and Greening have never stopped their continuous growth and year over year including during the last several decades of Global Warming. All those commenters who do not address this actual discussion are not adhering to our guidelines here on Wikipedia and are of no concern and too be ignored. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 19:09, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I assume you haven't read Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines either. Do not edit you posts after they have been responded to. And if you wish to meaningfully contribute here, I suggest you stop posting vacuous evidence free personal attacks on other contributors. It achieves absolutely nothing beyond making you arguments look weaker. AndyTheGrump (talk)
|
Current sourcing not ideal desertification
The current sentence on deserts in the lead is stronger than the statement we have in the body (expanding general, vs contributed to expansion in the subtropics). The body is cited to two sources:
- This 2009 article about modelling (can't really be used for a statement about current trends)
- The IPCC 2019 report, which says "In some dryland areas, increased land surface air temperature and evapotranspiration and decreased precipitation amount, in interaction with climate variability and human activities, have contributed to desertification. These areas include Sub-Saharan Africa, parts of East and Central Asia, and Australia." as well as "Climate change, including increases in frequency and intensity of extremes, (..) contributed to desertification and land degradation in many regions"
I believe we might need to tweak the lead, perhaps by replacing this statement with a more general statement that dry areas are expanding (which is uncontroversial). Furthermore, we should delete the 2019 paper.
I'm struggling to find high-quality review papers on the topic (we're nearing IPCC report season, so many researchers are writing their reviews as report authors), but there are some lower-quality papers. For instance, Chen et al states desert have been expanding slowly this century, but were contracting in the last 2 decades of the 20th century. In contrast Wu et al finds a stable trend, and notes that only 13%.
The 2023 Synthesis report says it more clearly: "Climate change has contributed to desertification and exacerbated land degradation, particularly in low lying coastal areas, river deltas, drylands and in permafrost areas (high confidence)."
In conclusion, I think we need to replace the lead statement and improve the sourcing for the body statement. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:46, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Bingo! Exactly right. And of course, it should be balanced with the WHOLE truth, that is desertification has not just increase in SOME areas, but shrunking in others, with the net total greening -- a scientific fact. SOME deserts are expanding, NOT deserts are expanding! Unless, of course, we are deliberately editing the article to promote a particular alarmist agenda. If that is the case, let's not include the whole truth and deliberately mislead the readers. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 20:55, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- The fact a sentence can be improved is not an agreement with your insinuations that the information in the sentence is wrong. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:24, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I did not insinuate, I stated clearly that the sentence is 100% wrong and it is indeed a falsehood that should be correct, unless of course, if we are deliberately promoting an alarmist agenda, then let's not fix it. Facts do not care about feelings, 'some' deserts are expanding, but deserts expanding is a lie. Deserts are shrinking as a whole. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:39, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Potential sources for review include:
- Daniela Rivera-Marin, Jadunandan Dash, Booker Ogutu, (2022) "The use of remote sensing for desertification studies: A review", Journal of Arid Environments, Volume 206, 104829, doi: 10.1016/j.jaridenv.2022.104829
- Roy, P., Pal, S.C., Chakrabortty, R. et al. (2024) "Climate change and geo-environmental factors influencing desertification: a critical review". Environ Sci Pollut Res. doi: 10.1007/s11356-024-32432-9
- AbdelRahman, M.A.E. (2023) "An overview of land degradation, desertification and sustainable land management using GIS and remote sensing applications". Rend. Fis. Acc. Lincei, Volume 34, pp. 767–808. doi: 10.1007/s12210-023-01155-3
- Guoshuai Li, Bao Yang, Guangjian Wu, Guangcai Feng, Fredrik Charpentier Ljungqvist, Tao Che, Ying Zhang, Hong Yang, Xiaodan Guan, Chunlin Huang, Jianhua Xiao, Yunfa Miao, (2025), "Increased desertification exposure in dryland areas", Ecological Indicators, Volume 179, 114264, doi: 10.1016/j.ecolind.2025.114264
- -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:22, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I don't recognize any of these journals. Are they high-quality reliable sources? The second one definitely isn't, as it's not that coherent, but seems to have glaring errors in the lead around the trend in rainfall (it claims no variability) and possibly outright climate denial? —Femke 🐦 (talk) 21:35, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- They were just the top few results on topic, published since 2022, from Elsevier and Springer journals, so they weren't obvious trash tier. If they are nonsense they should obviously be disregarded. Scimago places Ecological Indicators in Q1, Journal of Arid Environments Q1/Q2, Environ Sci Pollut Res Q2, and Rend. Fis. Acc. Lincei Q2. I tend not to edit on these big science pages, so I was probably too gun ho with such a simple scrape for potential source, my apologies. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:43, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- No worries, you've found higher-quality papers than me. For the two Q1(ish) papers:
- Daniela et al does not seem to cover the question of whether desertification is increasing from a cursory read
- Guoshuai et al does, but I'm not entirely sure I understand what they are measuring. I think it's the area that is desertifying each year (which they say has gone up many times since 2000). I'm not sure if they measure the converse too (areas that are being restored), and therefore to what extent they answer the question of desert expansion. What do you think, User:Cdjp1? It's a primary source, so not ideal, but the paper does not have any red flags to me. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 07:11, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- Daniela et al seems to have been a false positive, not literature review of our current understanidng, but a review of the methodologies used to study desertification. Guoshuai et al, from an initial read does not discuss, as you say, the converse. So, if we are looking for ones that compare the two processes it is lacking. On the note of primary papers, while not ideal, such being used in conjunction with secondary and tertiary sources that don't directly pull from the primary, should be fine to show the continued/repeated support for the sentence statement.
- I can't say I will get to it soon, but I will dig around in the academic libraries I have access to, to look for very recent (ideally) graduate level textbooks covering the topic. This should be strong secondary/tertiary sources we can pull from. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:09, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- Found another source, Wu et al, 2026, which is in a high-quality journal, very recent and shows a declining trend in desert area. Based on the fact that these sources are contradictory, I don't think there is a consensus on the direction of desert expansion/contraction and have removed the statement from the lead. Open question is what we should say in the body. The Wu paper indicates that climate is the main driver behind most regional changes in desert area. Is our summary of the IPCC correct that subtropical deserts are seeing expansion? It seems to partially contrast with the Wu paper.
- * Contraction: Australia, East Asia, Central Asia, and Southern Africa.
- * Expansion: North Africa, North America, South America, and Southwest Asia (Wu et al), Sub-Saharan Africa, parts of East and Central Asia, and Australia (IPCC, specifically expansion is attributed to CC). —Femke 🐦 (talk) 09:06, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- I am surprised to hear southern Africa, I'll need to dig into the paper to see the factors potentially driving that. East and central Asia are potentially due to concerted efforts at re-greening in the PRC (depending whether the authors group western areas of the PRC as central or east Asia). I wonder if the recent attempts at further increasing cash crops would have also added to the greening in the central Asian republics? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:14, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
Sourcing about crops etc
- More sources for review include:
- [1]
- [2]
- [3]
- [4]
- [5]
- [6]
- [7] AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:29, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- None of these sources seem to be on the topic of desertification? —Femke 🐦 (talk) 21:35, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- You are right. Those are regarding the other falsehood in the article regarding food security. This here is the other list:
- [8]
- [9]
- [10]
- [11]
- AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:45, 25 April 2026 (UTC) AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:45, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Ok, so numbers 7, 8 and 11 may be hallucinated, considering the wrong DOIs have been provided in the citations. 7 links to "Diagnostic Framework for Evaluating How Parametric Uncertainty Influences Agro-Hydrologic Model Projections of Crop Yields Under Climate Change" by Karimi at al., 8 links to "Characteristics, drivers and feedbacks of global greening" by Piao et al. and 11 links to "Monitoring spatially heterogeneous riparian vegetation around permanent waterholes: A method to integrate LiDAR and Landsat data for enhanced ecological interpretation of Landsat fPAR time-series" by Neriques et al. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 21:52, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- "may be"? Either they have or they have not.
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s43017-019-0001-x
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0220-7
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0220-7
- https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3004
- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0034425724004085?via%3Dihub
[11]
- AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:55, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- You said that citation 7 was Dolan et al. (2021). "Evaluating the Robustness of the Global Energy-Water-Land System to Future Shocks" but it links to Karimi et al. (2022) "Diagnostic Framework for Evaluating How Parametric Uncertainty Influences Agro-Hydrologic Model Projections of Crop Yields Under Climate Change".
- This error may be due to LLM hallucination, but as I don't know if you are using an LLM, I have stated it may be hallucinated. If you want to provide an explanation why you are giving the wrong links for the citations you are writing, it would be greatly appreciated. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:00, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
| The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
- As others have pointed out, after you have been replied to please don't edit your comment without provide the clear note necessary to show that a change has been made where appropriate, such as striking a statement. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:02, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I did not. We posted at the same time. As other have pointed out, please assume good faith as required by our guidelines. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:04, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- I stand corrected in this case, yes, you went to add citation 11 to you comment at the same time I replied.
- Next, do you want to explain why you have linked to the wrong papers across multiple comments, multiple times, while citing a different paper? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:09, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Hi Cdjp1. Thank for your desire to contribute to Wikipedia! One the best ways to do so is to assist with the tedious effort of formatting references. Better than pointing them out is fixing them. =)
- If you something constructive to add to the discussion topic, fix the reference. If you only intend to be a disruptive editor, don't. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:13, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- Hi Cdjp1. Thank for your desire to contribute to Wikipedia! One the best ways to do so is to assist with the tedious effort of formatting references. Better than pointing them out is fixing them. =)
- [12]
- More to come as they are made ....
- AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:11, 25 April 2026 (UTC) AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:11, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- So, instead of explaining how you made the mistake, you are saying I should edit your comments to correct the mistakes you make in your comments? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:12, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- And again, your citation 12 says that it is Yuan et al. (2025) "Widespread greening of the Earth is warming-induced", but you link it to Zhang et al. (2025) "Earth's record-high greenness and its attributions in 2020". -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:14, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- The best way you can be a constructive editor, Cdjp1, is to fix reference. There is zero need to edit other comments to do so. If do you not wish to be a constructive editor, I understand. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:15, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- The best way you can be a constructive editor, Cdjp1, is to fix reference. There is zero need to edit other comments to do so. If do you not wish to be a constructive editor, I understand. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:14, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- That's not how things work on the Talk Page. The references I'm talking about are the ones you are writing in your comments. And as explained you a repeatedly making a mistake that is indicative of LLM hallucinations, so if you don't explain how/why you are making the mistake it could cause people to think you are generating your comments via LLM. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:16, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
- That's not how things work. Wikifying a reference is not a comment. You really are straining at gnats. You have made it clear you not interesting in constructive contribution to reference generation. Repeating making this clear is indicative of NOTHERE and could cause people to think you are assuming bad faith. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:22, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
Wikifying a reference is not a comment , so are you saying that you are not writing comments here? Is this not a comment? Or this? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 18:26, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- So you are stating you have nothing constructive to add to the subject area? AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 18:52, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- You are refusing to answer questions about what you're writing and commenting, and about the sources you are providing. Why? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 19:11, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- I am sorry you are confused, the only question is why you are confused. If you notice, I ignored disruptive editors such as AndyTheGrump, as our guidelines here are Wikipedia recommend. I have in fact answered all relevant, rational, and none-rhetorical questions. You, on the other hand, have not. Why are you refusing to answer questions and why are you evading? Is it because you have nothing constructive to add to the subject area, which is the articles current forum like nature and climate denial of the fact that year over year Crop Yields and Net Greening, not desertification, have continue their non-stop march of progress, even during the last decades of Global Warming. AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 21:44, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- Can you give a clear explanation as to what you mean by 'the articles current forum like nature'? I can see nothing remotely justifying such a description, and I am having difficulty envisioning how an article could even achieve that. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:53, 26 April 2026 (UTC)
- Neriques et al. should read Henriques et al., my apologies for the mistype. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:22, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
|
- Thanks Femke for having the sincerity to look into this. I am working on the Wikification of these references, please have patience ....
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s43017-019-0001-x
Piao, Shilong; Wang, Xuhui; Park, Taejin; Chen, Chi; Lian, Xu; He, Yue; Bjerke, Jarle W.; Chen, Anping; Ciais, Philippe; Tømmervik, Hans; Nemani, Ramakrishna R.; Myneni, Ranga B. (January 2020). "Characteristics, drivers and feedbacks of global greening". Nature Reviews Earth & Environment. 1: 14–27.
- https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-019-0220-7
Chen, Chi; Park, Taejin; Wang, Xuhui; Piao, Shilong; Xu, Baodong; Chaturvedi, Rajiv K.; Fuchs, Richard; Brovkin, Victor; Ciais, Philippe; Fensholt, Rasmus; Tømmervik, Hans; Bala, Govindasamy; Zhu, Zaichun; Nemani, Ramakrishna R.; Myneni, Ranga B. (February 2019). "China and India lead in greening of the world through land-use management". Nature Sustainability. 2: 122–129.
- https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate3004
Zhu, Zaichun; Piao, Shilong; Myneni, Ranga B.; Huang, Mengtian; Zeng, Zhenzhong; Canadell, Josep G.; Ciais, Philippe; Sitch, Stephen; Friedlingstein, Pierre; Arneth, Almut; Cao, Chunxiang; Cheng, Lei; Kato, Etsushi; Koven, Charles; Li, Yue; Lian, Xu; Liu, Yongwen; Liu, Ronggao; Mao, Jiafu; Pan, Yaozhong; Peng, Shushi; Peñuelas, Josep; Poulter, Benjamin; Pugh, Thomas A. M.; Stocker, Benjamin D.; Viovy, Nicolas; Wang, Xuhui; Wang, Yingping; Xiao, Zhiqiang; Yang, Hui; Zaehle, Sönke; Zeng, Ning (August 2016). "Greening of the Earth and its drivers". Nature Climate Change. 6: 791–795.
- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0034425724005200
Zhang, Yulong; Mao, Jiafu; Sun, Ge; Guo, Qinfeng; Atkins, Jeffrey; Li, Wenhong; Jin, Mingzhou; Song, Conghe; Xiao, Jingfeng; Hwang, Taehee; Qiu, Tong; Meng, Lin; Ricciuto, Daniel M.; Shi, Xiaoying; Li, Xing; Thornton, Peter; Hoffman, Forrest (April 2024). "Earth's record-high greenness and its attributions in 2020". Remote Sensing of Environment. 304.
- AlejandroMuller50 (talk) 22:19, 25 April 2026 (UTC)
Greening is happening, and it isn't "versus" desertification
It isn't desertification versus greening. Both are happening. Just as warming climate produces more global precipitation and also more droughts.
Right now I think greening is represented by a single sentence in the Nature and wildlife subsection.
However greening is well-documented and probably should get a few paragraphs, maybe a subsection of its own. This NASA Earth Observatory summary "Global Green Up Slows Warming" explains it very briefly.[13]
And apparently some drylands are getting both dryer and greener. Which I find weird to think about. Here is a summary "With CO2 Levels Rising, World’s Drylands Are Turning Green" from Yale Environment 360.[14]
I think the story of greening due to climate change is mostly missing from this article and should be included. Probably it would be good to track down the more authoritative references behind the two citations I provided. -- M.boli (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- This article is pretty long. To argue effectively for expanding one element, it's usually a good idea to show overview sources spend proportionally more text on it than we do. I don't think that's the case for global greening. We also cover global greening in the feedback section, even though we don't mention that term. In addition, it can be effective to suggest what should be removed. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 16:56, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- "Greening" is a somewhat general concept. Things that could be called "greening" can occur in a few ways, such as a side-effect of other changes (eg. thawing permafrost, retreating glaciers, and increased rainfall). The single sentence in Nature and wildlife deals with the more direct causation, CO2 to plant growth, but we don't have space to cover the many sub-impacts of different changes in one article. CMD (talk) 20:28, 29 April 2026 (UTC)
- Hi M. Boli -- Editor warriors keep wrongfully deleting my response to this discussion in contradiction to our policies. This thread is discussion greening of the globe and its connection to global warming. I rightfully pointed out that Global Warming's contribution to greening is minimal, the literature states the cause of most greening is good management practices. The same goes for wildfires. Private Forests do not have the same wildfire difficulties as government owned forests. ~2026-26771-54 (talk) 18:09, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Greening is very much a product of climate change. The temperate zones are shifting, growing seasons are longer in some places, the 50% higher concentration of CO2 drives more photosynthesis. It is also true that some of the greening areas are due to land use changes, particularly in China and India as I understand it.
- My point is that greening should be better represented in this article, which summarizes the effects of climate change.
- The greening effect doesn't make global warming OK. It doesn't cancel the bad effects and only a little bit mitigates the problem. But things such as the CO2 Coalition and the Heartland Institute's Climate at a glance have incorporated a greening-is-good narrative as part of their climate denial message. Which makes it a little tricky for finding reliable sources and writing it up. -- M.boli (talk) 18:53, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Whether or not global warming is a good, bad, or indifferent is a Forum item and entirely a personal value/opinion question for each individual reader of Wikipedia. I have very much stated that Global Warming is indeed a factor involved in greening, however, it is not the dominate factor according to the literature. There is a whole other article dedicated to the Effects Climate Change, which of course has major areas for improvement. I would suggest desert, wildfires, etc all be placed in that article, not here. ~2026-26771-54 (talk) 19:31, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- For both of you, if you want to suggest changes in reorganisation, use high-quality overview sources to make the case. Everyone has an opinion on what is and what isn't important, but we rely on external overview sources to make that assessment. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 19:55, 3 May 2026 (UTC)
- Discussion is to be encouraged, not discouraged, Femke. ~~ ~2026-33166-42 (talk) 20:15, 3 June 2026 (UTC)
- M. Boli - What bad effects? 20:19, 3 June 2026 (UTC)~ ~2026-33166-42 (talk) 20:19, 3 June 2026 (UTC)
References
Baffes, John; Etienne, Xiaoli (November 27, 2024). "Yield growth patterns of food commodities: Insights and challenges". PLOS ONE. 19 (11): e0313088. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0313088. CS1 maint: article number as page number (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)