Talk:Dalida

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April 3 rollback

DalidaEditor, I concur with your rollback, but when it involves reverting the work of several editors, as was the case here, it's customary, or at least, advisable, to add a section here on the Talk page to explain your reasoning. Otherwise, it can look a bit too much like ownership. In one case, you removed a reference added by KawatharUAE, but this is defensible, since it was added to the lead summarizing article content that was already sourced in the body. Going forward, if you roll back again, please raise a section here, and explain your action. If there are any objections, you'll need to respond and find consensus to determine how to proceed. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:13, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Hi, I understand and agree but I think this is a completely different case. If you look at past two months of Dalida page edits you would notice how most edits were whether she is Egyptian, French or Italian; so just spinning around because of random users, some even unregistered, are again trying to inflict personal opinions. The topic was disscussed and solved, the most basic fact about Dalida that was never doubtful. And some other edits were; transfer of American style words to British which was done partially by user leaving the article in complete mess, and capitalizing some words from no reason... That is why I didn't add any section because I tought those edits weren't much of important nature, thus completely unnecessary. Dalida Editor please ping or message me 02:08, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
@DalidaEditor:, okay, well, it might be less obvious to someone just looking at the rev history and wondering what's going on, who isn't as familiar with the article, and its history, as you are. The safe thing, and the user-friendly thing to do, is to add some comments here. Now that's done, so if you don't get any pushback here, then it's fine. Happy editing! Mathglot (talk) 02:12, 4 April 2020 (UTC)
@Mathglot: Yes you are right, thanks for nice approach. Keep safe. Dalida Editor please ping or message me 00:16, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Blind revert and edit war done by cheep.

Hello, 

User:cheep keeps reverting my edits without discussing them and removing reliable sources. Dalida was an Egyptian-born.

What's the point of removing such information? What could be his problem with her being Egyptian-born? --KawatharUAE (talk) 14:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

His problem is the same as mine. You are stating the same thing twice. The wording which was there before your edit was agreed some time ago. Please read the text very carefully and do not change it again. LynwoodF (talk) 15:15, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
I am not stating the same thing twice. Stating that she was an Egyptian-born French is totally different from stating that she was just a french citizen; as the former implies she was neutralized, while the latter implies she was French by birth and upbringing. That piece of information should be made clear at the introduction of the article.

--KawatharUAE (talk) 15:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

She was not actually Egyptian-born (see this article); she was Italian-born in Egypt and this is clearly stated. Please read what it says in the sentence. There is a parallel with Audrey Hepburn, who was British-born in Belgium to a Dutch mother, but was not entitled by virtue of her place of birth to Belgian nationality, nor by virtue of her mother's origins to Dutch nationality. LynwoodF (talk) 18:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I doubt that you know the proper definition of Egyptian-born! An Egyptian-born is simply someone who was born in Egypt. Dalida was born in Egypt to Italian immigrants who settled in Cairo, Egypt prior to 1912, which automatically makes them Egyptian citizens as well. Dalida was a neutralized french, not just "French"; there is a difference. --Tania.raef (talk) 06:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Your point is probably valid, KawatharUAE.

Reading the article on Egyptian nationality, I cannot see that her parents would automatically have been entitled to Egyptian nationality, even if they settled in Egypt at the time you mention. They already had Italian nationality. The wording which appeared in this article before the recent changes was agreed a few years ago, after a discussion on the talk page, and it was felt to be the simplest way to summarize the complex situation in the lede. More detail is given in the main body of the article. It was decided to describe her as a French singer because her singing career began after she moved to France and she was naturalized French by marrying a French citizen. If you have better information than is available to the rest of us, please give us references. LynwoodF (talk) 08:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

First of all, she was definitely an Egyptian citizen, or else she would not have been able to join the national beauty contest of Miss Egypt in the first place, a contest which has always been exclusive to Egyptian nationals. Secondly, I don't really care whether she had the Egyptian nationality or not. She was an Egyptian-born and raised in Egypt. Last but not least, are you serious?! Just because someone became famous in a country which they happen to hold its citizenship later in life, would it mean we can ignore stating their true, original nationality--the nationality of their entire family--which they inherited by Jus sanguinis. If you can't see the fallacy in your argument, then please leave the matter to another admin to take care of. Wikipedia should not be the right place in which you can be racist and get away with it. --Tania.raef (talk) 17:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I object to being described as a racist. Please withdraw the accusation. If you wish to change the text of the article, please find credible references to support the statements you make. LynwoodF (talk) 18:05, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

The source the I have provided along with thousands of other sources available online do support she was Egyptian-born of Italian descent, don't they? I believe explicitly stating that wouldn't take away any of your "French pride". --Tania.raef (talk) 19:51, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I do not agree that the sources you give bear out your contention and I have not seen any other source which does. It is not clear to me whether you understand that being born in Egypt is not the same thing as being born Egyptian. My understanding of Egyptian nationality law suggests that she would not automatically have acquired the right to Egyptian nationality, but would have been deemed to be Italian at birth. Moreover, I have never seen any source which states unequivocally that she ever acquired Egyptian nationality. This could well be because there are none.
I am not French; I am a neutral observer attempting to record verifiable facts. LynwoodF (talk) 21:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Argh! For the millionth time, an Egyptian-born is someone who was born in Egypt regardless of their nationality. Is it so hard to understand? In other words, you do not have to be an Egyptian citizen to be an Egyptian-born. Speaking of whether she had the Egyptian nationality or not, I couldn't care less. However, I personally believe she had the Egyptian citizenship, or she wouldn't have been able to compete in Miss Egypt, a competition whose primary condition is to be Egyptian! Having said that, I'm not here to prove she was an Egyptian citizen. I'm here to state a well-known fact, which is she was an Egyptian-born italian...that can be proved with tens of thousands of sources. --Tania.raef (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

All we know with any degree of certainty is that she was born in Egypt to Italian parents and that is clearly stated in the lede. LynwoodF (talk) 07:41, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
User:Tania.raef, I believe you are confusing “Egypt-born”, which is about geography, with “Egyptian-born” which is about citizenship. But since “Egyptian-born” is rare enough that it might cause confusion with its cousin “Egypt-born”, it’s better to say “born an Egyptian citizen” if that’s what you mean, or “born in Egypt” if that’s what you mean. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 10:20, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Showing the confusion: this book uses the expression one way; while this one uses the other expression that way, so it's confusing. All the more reason to avoid the hyphenated expressions, and just spell out what is meant. Mathglot (talk) 18:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Sales

  • "In a career spanning more than 30 years, Dalida sold 85 million records" — Suicide in the Entertainment Industry by David K. Frasier (2015); pag. 74
  • "She sold over 85 million records world-wide over the years" — Macmillan Dictionary of Women's Biography by Jennifer Uglow (1993); pag. 145
  • "she sang primarily in French or Italian, selling in excess of 85 million records worldwide" — Rock Obituaries: Knocking On Heaven's Door by Nick Talevski (2010); pag 114
  • "she recorded more than 500 songs in eight languages and sold more than 100 million records" — Frommer's Memorable Walks in Paris by Jeanne Oliver (1998); pag. 121
  • "Dalida became a major star in France, selling 120 million records during a thirty-year career that began in 1956" — HA!: A Self-Murder Mystery by Gordon Sheppard (2003)
  • "Dalida , qui avait vendu 120 millions de disques de son vivant" — by Capital (FR); pag. 118, issues: 154-159
  • 140 million albums by BroadwayWorld (2019)

--Apoxyomenus (talk) 19:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:38, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

She’s Egyptian by birth and heritage, Italian by blood,

Not “French”! This is the funniest thing I’ve read. —MatthewS. (talk) 09:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Asking for admin involvement

First of all, I want to point out that this page looks like a fanzine page and it is not very balanced. I edited the nationality of Dalida, using the terms written in the Wikipedia French and Italian pages, The Spanish version uses the term 'Italian-French' citizenship. The user Cheep has reverted my edit. On the Wikipedia pages in French and Italian, Dalida is described as Italian, naturalised French. Dalida's first nationality was Italian. She was born in Egypt by Italian parents and she acquired Italian nationality at birth (jus sanguinis citizenship). Her mother tongue was Italian, she attended Italian school in Egypt and grew up in an Italian environment. She moved to France and acquired her French citizenship in 1961 after marrying Lucien Morisse, at age 28. Her first nationality was Italian and she became also French citizen. Deleting the fact she was first an Italian citizen, it is a disrespect to facts. She was Italian too, not just her parents. Now, the user LynwoodF was worried just to revert the correct information, stating that "This matter has been discussed at length before". I checked the previous discussion on this talk page and I don't see any balanced discussion at length, about this topic, but just a heavy involvement of a Dalida fan. Why is this behaviour allowed on the wikipedia English page of Dalida, when the other languages had dealt with the topic in a better and balanced way? Why does this page look like a fanzine? I am asking for the involvement of administrators. Thank you.--Cutio.mer (talk) 10:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Cutio.mer: Hi, other wikipedias are irrelevant in this case. Dalida is a French singer. There was a lot of talk about this topic even though there was no basis for it, but that discussion at least yielded a very concise and accurate introduction to article: “French singer, born in Egypt to Italian parents”. Cordially Dalida Editor please ping or message me 09:48, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
@DalidaEditor:I asked for a feedback from an admin, not a Dalida's fan, tbh. Other wikipedia pages are not irrelevant, moreover Dalida was more known among French and Italian audience than English one. Dalida wasn't just born to Italian parents, but she was Italian herself, mother tongue Italian, and acquired later French citizenship at 28. Yes, she was singing mainly French, but she was singing also in other languages. Also you are really making a disservice to historical facts. Anyway, Dalida already explained clearly that in a song: ″C'est vrai, c'est vrai. C'est vrai que, je suis italienne. De naissance égyptienne″. Like it or not. Cutio.mer (talk) 11:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

A non-neutral article containing false information

I bring my support to make this article encyclopedic and respectful of the principles of Wikipedia. I propose to start updating the introduction of the article.

I rely only on factual evidence, and support my argument on a set of sources which, in any case, are irrefutable, at least can hardly be so. All this having only one goal, to manage to reform the article.

For starters, here is the false information in the introduction:

  • Dalida, egyptian? At birth, she had Italian nationality because of her parents who were Italian. Being established in Egypt does not induce Egyptian nationality, Dalida has never had this nationality, nor Egyptian origins. On the other hand, she was naturalized French in April 1961. She is therefore in fact and from the legal point of view an Italian-French or, in other words, an Italian naturalized French. She explains it herself in this broadcast dated November 16, 1986. The French and Italian Wikipedia page of Dalida advances this too.
  • Dalida, leading singer in Europe in the 60s? In reality, an artist among others. Lolita, a German artist, had sold a million records in Germany alone in 1960, the same for Rocco Granata with his song Marina. The same year, a success by Dalida sold more than 500,000 copies internationally. This can be repeated throughout the 1960s. Although Dalida sold several million records during those years, she was not "the leader" of the record market in Europe.
  • Dalida, first platinum record? No. For example, the Philips record company had already awarded one to its artists in August 1963. That is more than a year before Dalida received it; having obtained it on September 17, 1964.
  • Dalida, first diamond disc? No. It's the same story and there are many counterexamples. To name just one, Anna Lena Lofgren received one in March 1968. In addition, the one received by Dalida is not a record as such but an Oscar (as written on the award).

Apart from that, we must also opt for a broader formulation concerning sales and less precise. Dalida's sales figures are a roller coaster from one year to the next. For example, in 1981 we were talking about 65 million or even 67 million records sold. In 1987, 85 million or even 185 million as in Turkey. In the 90s, more than 100 million. In 2007, 170 million. In 2016, 140 million (120 million sold during his lifetime, 20 million since his death). In 2020, 125 million on the official website. A formula like "With several million records sold..." is in fact more generic and above all more neutral. And if necessary, it will be necessary to support this in the Discography section by indicating a sales range, with supporting sources.

I will not go back to the non-neutral chosen vocabulary which is already the subject of a banner on the article.

It is urgent to clarify Dalida's article which very closely resembles a blog article dedicated to the artist and not an encyclopedic article. I take the first step. --Elenora.C (talk) 01:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I haven't been as active on wikipedia in months as I used to be. I’m very busy so I don’t even get to be a part of this new discussion you’ve started, which I’d love to. So I can only answer two things that caught my eye out of a few of which you have listed.
You write "for starters"? And here, you are a...? I recommend that you become a little more familiar with this article, and not just attack it because of the state it was in on the day you read it. For cca 2 years, several editors are making efforts to keep this article as much as normal it can be, constantly fighting article vandalism on nationality, although agreed: French singer.
Second, are you trying to compare the success of Dalida in the 1960s and relativize it with one hit wonders? Popularity and success are not measured solely in sales, what are we talking about...
On French wikipedia, articles for musicians' discographies are flooded with sources that are nothing more than blogs, and the editors of those wiki articles are either these bloggers or are closely related to them. To me it seems that those like-minded people would like to spread their "facts" (their own calculations and quasi homemade hit parades) to the English wikipedia. There is a quite interesting new page "chartsinfos . com" I just discovered, that you tried to implement on Memorias (Camilo Sesto album) article. That webpage seems to be very focused on Dalida, Mireille Mathieu and Charles Aznavour. Definetely an official source, hm. I wonder is this an offspring of already well branched "artisteschartsventes.blogspot. com" group... not sure, but definetely like-minded people's creation. The ".com" suffix in a place of ".blog" doesn't make it any more official.
Cordially Dalida Editor please ping or message me 15:12, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Dear @DalidaEditor:,
I'm glad you're taking part in the debate.
However, I would first like to settle a dispute with you even if this is not the place but it is necessary to lead a calm debate. Please stop hammering that I'm a French contributor when you proceed to completely arbitrary cancellations concerning my contributions. First, I’m Spanish. And even if I had been French, I don't see how this is an argument to highlight. Are the contributions of a Spanish or French user bad precisely because they come from these people? I am a full contributor. End of this aside.
I already brought many sources in my last intervention on this discussion page. And yes, I made changes dubbed by users who thanked me.
I don't know what blog you are talking about. Indeed, I use many sources as you can see on my Spanish wikipedia user page. Chartsinfos is one of them and it's not a blog. It's a database only. Take a closer look and you'll find the legal notices, not to mention the fact that they do have a domain name as well. So your assessment is completely unfounded. The sources for this site are actual sales and official rankings. Archives are available for consultation. The site has undergone a major update, other artists were there before. The proof is you mention Camilo Sesto. But they seem to be coming back gradually. It had been indicated. I also use the Billboard which was basically a magazine for professionals in the recording industry. In short, I will not cite all my sources.
Concerning the Camilo Sesto articles, the sources were well accepted, and my contributions earned me the "fregona coronada", precisely for having made the main article more neutral and sourced. But unfortunately, there are always vandals who are always very active and who themselves call you a vandal when you modify their contributions. A very classic conflict.
Dalida's nationality
Italy, like France, recognizes dual nationality. This does not depend on our goodwill, but falls under international law. I’m a jurist, and I can tell you that you are in a misunderstanding of international law, without taking offense. Dalida, being born of Italian parents and having obtained French nationality, is indeed an Italian-French. This is even said by her. I refer you to previous sources.
Here are other sources :
Concerning these alleged Egyptian origins : Book : DALIDA une vie…, page 6 (ISBN :978-2205-06107-9) : « For the Egyptian state, she is of Italian nationality and is named Iolanda-Cristina ». The official papers are published in the book. Anyway her Italian nationality is certain.
Dalida does indeed have two nationalities: Book : L’Argus Dalida, page 1 (ISBN : 9782953141153) : « French at heart, the Diva (as her admirers call her) was born in Egypt and kept her Italian nationality, inherited from her ancestors. » here is the link where you can precisely read an extract and where you will find the sentence.
Dalida's popularity in the 1960s in Europe
If we look at sales in the 1960s, Dalida is indeed not the leader in Europe. But if we look at the official rankings (especially in Italy, Germany, Spain etc... because yes they already existed) we can see that Dalida does not dominate the European market either. So if neither the sales nor the rankings justify the position you assigned to her, what are your references? your sources? For my part, I have already stated my sources previously, I refer you to them.
Take the time to consult the sources I have given. Do not take it badly, but you supported false things, an example: to say that Dalida had received the first platinum disc. I will not return to the subject of nationality.
I hope I have enlightened you. If you could give sources, please, to have a fair and solid debate.
While waiting for your reply,
friendly
p.s.: Your pseudonym suggests a lack of objectivity "DalidaEditor". Why this choice ? Elenora.C (talk) 20:15, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Can we stop the personal attacks and focus on the best published sources? I agree with this reversion by Elenora which states that Dalida "is an Italian-French singer and actress born in Egypt." It's accurate and suitable.
The article has been tagged for its lack of neutrality since September 2021. It was also tagged for "too many sections", so Elenora bravely jumped in and reduced the problems, rewriting the lead section to make it more concise. Unfortunately, we still have the faux section headers remaining in place, and much of the non-neutrality is still there. As an example, one cited source says Dalida was accused in 1978 of lip-syncing a performance, but nothing about that accusation is in the article. Her production people admitted to using pre-recorded tracks for the disco numbers. The source is misrepresented because only half of it is summarized: the hammer attack part.
I think the article needs a strong rewrite, accepting the bad with the good. Binksternet (talk) 21:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for intervening and refocusing the debate. I try somehow to bring only solid sources, facts and to remain objective in my writings. The facts, their validations, sources and more sources. I would like to intervene already on the part concerning her career. Even if users intervene after the fact to complete. Starting from scratch is necessary. Remove all its false assertions, like the introduction which had been overwhelmed with them. Elenora.C (talk) 21:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
I've removed the faux headings, which i really dislike, but i agree with Binksternet that a bit of a rewrite is needed ~ perhaps too much detail is there, or perhaps it just needs condensing a bit and made to read as a whole. Happy days ~ LindsayHello 11:37, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Hello @LindsayH
That's why I provided some answers. Indeed, as Binksternet said, elements are put forward but the sources do not coincide. In reality, most of what is put forward is false information that comes from Barclay's merchandising and marketing techniques, then from other productions (eg Dalida leader in Europe, Dalida n°1 here is there, Dalida seduces intellectuals , Dalida disco queen), add to that sales that do not exist (no sources) and a non-neutral vocabulary. Without counting the contribution of fanatics not-objectives.
Example: The record company claimed that the title had been number 1 in 9 countries. In fact, only in 2 countries around the world.
The article as it stands discredits Dalida's career, it's all about one-upmanship. While she already enjoys an international career with many successes. While thanking you Elenora.C (talk) 12:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Dalida was never Miss Egypt in 1954

Another misinformation reported. Here is the evidence after some research. Antigone Costanda was Miss Egypt in 1954 (elected necessarily in 53 for the year 1954) and incidentally Miss World, ahead of Karin Hultman Miss USA. (Source 1 & 2)

Dalida competed in Miss Ondine of Cairo, a variant of Miss Egypt. What is more, she did not win the contest and finished second runner-up. As confirmed by Le journal d'Egypte on June 9, 1954: "Paula Williams was elected Bathing Beauty 1954. Her runners-up are Yolande Gigliotti and Catherine Kindilidis". Paula Williams was indeed Miss Ondine of Cairo. Another source, the book Dalida: Mythe et mémoire (ISBN : 978-2361393977): "[...] it is in this context that the name of a certain Yolande Giglioti appears in the press, but not as a winner but second prize ex eaquo: Mrs Paula Williams has was voted Bathing Beauty 1954". For reasons of fame, reality has been distorted regarding Dalida.

In fact...

Miss Egypt 1953: Marina Papaelia (reference)

Miss Egypt 1954: Antigone Costanda

Miss Egypt 1955: Gladys Hoene


In light Dalida was second runner-up in the 1954 Miss Ondine Cairo contest (Bathing Beauty) and has never been Miss Egypt. --Elenora.C (talk) 11:31, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I have responded to your information by removing the less important beauty contest text. If she was only second runner up, it's not enough to mention in the first paragraph. Binksternet (talk) 14:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
@Binksternet I was also thinking about deleting the info. But I'm not the only one to decide... in any case, thank you for once again intervening. The term "miss egypt" in one of the titles should also be deleted. I'm going to do it. Elenora.C (talk) 17:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Dalida's nationality

Stop edit warring.

Request for comment: Dalida's nationality described in the first paragraph

Misleading editing by user Fragrant Peony

Please, Make changes

Please correct misspelling

Nickname

Dalila?

Nationality wording (again)

List of songs in the lead

Jewish roots

Fake news

false removal

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