Talk:Darjeeling

Hey @Fowler&fowler:, I'm Australian myself and when I interpret Wikipedia's IPA pronunciations I don't pronounce the rhotic r's at all. We only make the distinction between British and American English if they're noticeably distinct - like lieutenant: British /lɛfˈtɛnənt/ and American /luːˈtɛnənt/. According to what you put, the British/American pronunciations of Darjeeling have no difference except for the /r/ sound.

In regards to the South Asian Englishes, correct me if I'm wrong, but with local place names they would aim to pronounce it exactly how the local language pronounces it - which in Bengali has the /r/ sound.

If you want a specific pronunciation of a local South Asian accent of English, you might want to use square brackets instead. Hope this helps. — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 09:34, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I saw on your user page that you are Australian. The problem here is that there is a slight difference in the "a" sound as well (as you no doubt know). Please explain the square bracket version. I'd be happier if some people such as user:Dwaipayanc, user:Uanafala, user:AjaxSmack, user:Vanamonde93, user:SandyGeorgia, and RegentsPark were a part of this discussion. I use AmE myself, so it's not a problem for me, but in the world of global Englishes to give an AmE pronunciation for a word like Darjeeling with a long South Asian and British history would be an unusual thing to do. For speakers of other regional varieties who both do and don't pronounce the "r", it might become confusing. Let's discuss this some more. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:47, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Apologies I meant user:Uanfala Also inviting user:Austronesier and user:Doug Weller Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:50, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler Sorry, this is way outside my wheelhouse. Doug Weller talk 10:38, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

We have: English pronunciation: /dɑːˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ (British Eng) and English pronunciation: /dɑrˈdʒilɪŋ/ (Amer. Eng) right now in a footnote.

AmazingJus would like to change it to only the second per a MOS preference ... and MOS does not allow /dɑ(r)ˈdʒilɪŋ/ Fowler&fowler«Talk» 09:53, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

According to MOS:DIAPHONEMIC: "[i]f the pronunciation in a specific accent is desired, square brackets may be used". Also notifying User:Nardog — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 10:07, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah you can't link to Help:IPA/English and not use the conventions on that page. /dɑːrˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ already means "/dɑːˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ or /dɑrˈdʒilɪŋ/ depending on variety". The presence of the two transcriptions is redundant and pointless. Nardog (talk) 16:13, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I do not understand IPA, so cannot decipher the IPA pronunciation. In the local pronunciation, "r" is definitely present, and the pronunciation of "D" in the beginning is not like "D" as in Dog, rather it is a soft D, somewhat like "the". I will try to upload an audio pronunciation in Bengali (I am a native speaker of Bengali), in case that helps. The Nepali pronunciation is almost same as Bengali pronunciation (there may be very subtle, nearly imperceptible, difference).--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:21, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

A Bengali transcription is already there. We're talking about the English transcriptions (which are currently in a footnote). Nardog (talk) 17:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Nardog: Sure it might be pointless, but is the presence of two transcriptions prohibited? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:12, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

In the current from it is, because they link to Help:IPA/English but do not adhere to the conventions laid out on that page. Besides, our diaphonemic system exists precisely to avoid these kinds of repetitions, as explained plainly in MOS:DIAPHONEMIC. Nardog (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I think it’s pretty clearly stated on Wikipedia’s pronunciation guidelines that /dɑːrˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ covers both /dɑːˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ and /dɑrˈdʒilɪŋ/. If you don’t mind, I’ll change the pronunciation according to Wikipedia’s specifications. — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 21:46, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree that, based on MOS:DIAPHONEMIC, there should only be one English transcription here. However, as this is English Wikipedia, the positions of the English vis-à-vis Bengali/Nepali should be reversed, with the English appearing in the parenthetical of the first sentence and the Bengali and Nepali in the footnote. —  AjaxSmack  23:41, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Going one step back: do we need actually an English IPA transcription? While trying to predict the correct pronunciation from the spelling alone is hit-and-miss for many toponyms, Darjeeling is one those place names that 99% will get right even they have never heard it in spoken language.

But if we must have an English IPA, it should obviously follow Help:IPA/English and MOS:DIAPHONEMIC, since the actual pronunciation is trivially predictable from /dɑːrˈdʒiːlɪŋ/ for all major varieties of English. And if we really need this English IPA transcription, we should probably put it into one footnote with the local languages. –Austronesier (talk) 11:08, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree about the predictability of the English pronunciation for native speakers, but brought it up because the stressed syllable differs from the Bengali. I felt that only having the Bengali/Nepali could be misleading (e.g. "Oh, the name is stressed on the first syllable in Bengali. Maybe I've been saying it wrong all of these years.") I had planned to add the written Bengali and Nepali after the TFA was done and move all of the names and pronunciations to the Toponymy section. Something like this:

In Bengali, the city is called দার্জিলিং^[1] (Dārjiliń; [ˈd̪arˌdʒilɪŋ]) and in Nepali, दार्जिलिङ (Dārjiliṅ; [darˈd͡ziliŋ]). —  AjaxSmack  17:22, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

As it was I who added the Bengali & Nepali IPA's to this article a few years ago, I'm not particularly sure if the English IPA is really needed because Darjeeling to me seems to be non-counterintuitive name (as the spelling seems quite obvious to me) and is quite a common name given how well known it's tea industry is around the world and as per MOS:LEADPRON, IPA's should not be included for words which are commonly known to most English speakers or which the pronunciation is obvious from the spelling. On the other hand, the Bengali & Nepali IPA's are more suitable as Nepali is the lingua franca of the town while Bengali is the official state language and the pronunciation for them are different compared to English. However, as the recent IPA addition seems to indicate differences between American & British English, then maybe it could be kept as long as it follows MOS:DIAPHONEMIC (which it currently doesn't seem to do). Broman178 (talk) 09:40, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

I've just tweaked the Bengali IPA because according to Help:IPA/Bengali, the dental diacritic is not directly transcribed even though the [d] is dental (the dental diacritic is only used if a language has both dental & alveolar stops which Bengali phonemically doesn't have) - the [d] in Nepali is also dental but doesn't have the diacritic - and there is no [ɪ] phoneme in Bengali (might occur as an allophone of [i] in loan words but not as a main phoneme). Broman178 (talk) 10:10, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

To all, but especially User:AmazingJus: I think I have a compromise. Please see the OED citation after Darjeeling, it has both pronunciations in the quote. But WP's pronunciation remains the US version. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

@Fowler&fowler: No worries, that would work. — ^{oi yeah nah mate} amazingJUSSO ... [ɡəˈdæɪ̯]! 13:54, 29 August 2022 (UTC)

The lack of an infobox location map for an article on a geographical location seems a bit problematic, and departs from usual Wikipedia practice and functionalities. It seems this was obliquely discussed in the FAR, mainly as a result of the problematic image crowding in the infobox . I suggest that we restore a location map, and remove the two smaller images from the infobox as in this proposal, so that we have an infobox that follows normal Wikipedia practice (one skyline image, one location map) while respecting the need for minimum clutter. पाटलिपुत्र Pataliputra (talk) 12:26, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

There are six maps in this featured article. There is no need for a seventh that repeats in amateurish blankness what appears in professional detail in the history section. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:25, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Added a less vacuous map and more compact one per the FAs Minneapolis, Winnipeg and others. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:50, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

Does anyone know why Darjeeling isn't on List of cities in India by population or List of towns in India by population? —Lights and freedom (talk ~ contribs) 00:31, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

What did transpire precisely? Is there any doubt that Campbell and Hooker were not kidnapped (say, were imprisoned as the result of some misadventure)? TrangaBellam (talk) 22:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't have my sources with me right now, but what I remember was that Hooker was an indefatigable botanist, who had been conducting expeditions with a small army of Lepcha porters, each of whom carried up to 140 pounds in specimens. It was during Hooker's (and Campbell's) expedition to eastern Sikkim, the permission for which had been murkily asked or murkily given, murkily translated, or all of the above, that Campbell and Hooker were arrested by orders of the Chogyal of Sikkim and then released after clarification, which may have taken a few days. (Imagine an army descending upon your sovereign lands and proceeding to snip off of this and that ...) Some among the British in Darjeeling thought it was a kidnapping, and the incident was used to annex the portion of southern Sikkim in which Darjeeling lay that the Company up until then had only been leasing.

Hooker must have had very good genes. Despite all his travels in conditions that would have daunted the lesser mortals of today, he lived to 94. Darwin, his good friend, in contrast was in shambles by his late 60s. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Improving our article on Hooker has been among one of the many things on my to-do list. E. C. Dozey who penned a fairly informative history of the district — notwithstanding a hefty dosage of racism even by contemporary standards — wrote:

Under the orders of Namgoway, the brother-in-law of the aged Rajah, and Dewan of the State, Dr. Campbell was subjected to severe indignities. He was bound hand and foot, knocked down, kicked and buffeted, and finally had his head forcibly bent over his chest with the apparent object of causing a dislocation of the cervical bones and death. This failing in its object, he was cast into a room measuring only 12 x 4 feet in which he was confined until December, 24th. Sir Joseph Hooker was placed under surveillance only, and not permitted to communicate with Dr. Campbell.

As no protest on the part of the British Government could obtain their speedy release, a punitive expedition was forced over the borders in February, 1850, the contretemps ending in the withdrawal of the allowance as well as the annexation of the whole of the district of Darjeeling which covers an area of 640 square miles.

That's some justification! I am reminded of Johnson's trip to Khotan and his changing narratives — from being kidnapped to being invited to forcing an invite — on how he ended up there.

Moving on to recent scholarship:

In 1848 Trokhang Dronyer Namgyal [the new diwan, who wielded increasing power in light of Tsugphu Namgyal's old age; Namgoway in Dozey's text] refused permission to Joseph Hooker, a noted British botanist, to explore Sikkim. Later, however, he granted the permission when Archibald Campbell, first Superintendent of Darjeeling (1839-64), threatened to report the matter to the British Government.

Towards the end of 1849, Campbell and Hooker, who had been travelling in Sikkim with the prior permission of Tsugphu Namgyal, were arrested near the Sikkimese-Tibetan border. Most Sikkimese at this time were for a policy of friendship with the British. These included the Tsibu Lama, who was the agent of the King of Sikkim in Darjeeling (1849-61). As he was unable to secure support for his action even from Tsugphu Namgyal and the Tibetans, Trokhang Dronyer Namgyal released Campbell and Hooker
— Rahul, Ram (2016). "Sikkim of History". International Studies. 15 (1): 21. doi:10.1177/002088177601500102. ISSN 0020-8817.

Fwiw, it appears that Trokhang Dronyer Namgyal was chosen at the first place due to anti-British inclinations given the unpopularity of the Namgyal's decision to lease Darjeeling which had not only caused much consternation among Bhutiyas having disrupted local trading networks but also brought significant umbrage from Tibet, predictably unhappy to find the Company at their doorsteps. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:41, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, @TrangaBellam: I did not see your post earlier. Am a little busy this minute, but will take a look at this in the coming days. Thanks for posting! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:57, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

As Hindi is an additional official language in the state of West Bengal and the GTA, I think it should be included in the info box. AtishT20 (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Please read the post-colonial history section, in particular the reference to West Bengal Official Language Act, 1961. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:54, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

The reason I changed the name to simply Bhutan is because the Kingdom of Bhutan is its official name. The text lists the other nations by their one worded names so I believe Bhutan should follow the same order and hence its not necessary to list its official name. The history of Darjeeling in the Kingdom of Bhutan can be explored further in the text anyway. Thanks! AtishT20 (talk) 16:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

More information Old version, Washi189 Added photo ...

Old version	Washi189 Added photo	16 December 2021, i.e. at the start of FA review
Darjeeling City Left to right from top: Darjeeling with Kangchenjunga, the world's third-highest mountain, rising behind it; a Darjeeling Himalayan Railway train en route to the main train station; a tea garden, or tea plantation	Darjeeling City Left to right from top: Darjeeling with Kangchenjunga, the world's third-highest mountain, rising behind it; a Darjeeling Himalayan Railway train en route to the main train station; a tea garden, the St. Andrews church	Darjeeling दार्जिलिङ Queen of the hills City Left to right from top: View of Darjeeling city from Happy Valley Tea Estate, City of Darjeeling, Kanchenjunga in background, North Point, A Tea garden

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@Washi189: The photograph you tried to add to the infobox was the same size as the other three put together. This might be OK if St Andrews Church were the dominant feature of Darjeeling. But it is not. To be honest - the infobox looked better before you added the photo. Having giant slabs of photos in the infobox does not improve articles.

In addition, we do not want to display the same photograph twice in the article - so if it is in the body of the article, please do not add it to the infobox - or alternatively, if you add it to the infobox, remove it from the body of the article.

By the way, "St Andrews Church" is a proper name - so "the" is not required.-- Toddy1 (talk) 11:02, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

Also, we had more than three pictures initially, but the FAR coordinator user:SandyGeorgia (whom I will not ping because she already has a big caseload) asked us to reduce the number. You will be able to see it in the FAR process. Pinging user:Dwaipayanc, the original main author of the FA, and my coauthor in the FAR. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:39, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

See my user page for the thumb-info-box of the Darjeeling FAR, with a link to the final vote among reviewers. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:40, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

I could not find what you are talking about on your user page.

But I did find the featured article review that you are talking about and from that I deduced that 16 December 2021 was before the featured article review, so have put the top of the infobox from that into the table above. It is interesting that people complained about the excessive size of the infobox during the review.-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:07, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

This is the final review vote Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:04, 26 May 2025 (UTC)

A section mentions talks about discrimination faced by people from Darjeeling. Originally I had removed it due to a lack of sources this time round I removed the word other. Maybe we could we remove the word other and have it replaced with neighbouring? This is the fact that Darjeeling is NOT part of North Eastern India and is part of West Bengal, a state in Eastern India. AtishT20 (talk) 13:21, 12 July 2025 (UTC)

Done @AtishT20 . --Dwaipayan (talk) 07:20, 16 July 2025 (UTC)

Awesome, thank you. AtishT20 (talk) 08:42, 16 July 2025 (UTC)