Talk:Extinction Rebellion

Here are some references that could potentially be worked into the article.^[1][2][3] With best wishes. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 13:38, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

100 people and top academics around the world signing letters did not come out of no-where. XR can be traced back to https://web.archive.org/web/20151015172755/https://compassionate-revolution.net/ and this Compassionate Revolution Ltd. is a company that then has Rising Up! and Extinction Rebellion derived from it. Wayback machine has it appearing in 2015. The campaign of Extinction Rebellion began in the planning in 2018, in the Spring. BUT even looking in 2015 there were people thinking about ecological politics involved from the start. Many of the figures involved were activists long before Occupy emerged around 2011. IN fact some can trace their direct action to the Reclaim the Streets! of the 1990s. How tenuous this chain is or how much this influenced the modern XR is not easy to say. There are probably not sources that say this to wikipedia standards. Rather looking at the key individuals and their histories would be a better way of assessing this. However a lot were not activists and not involved in any groups or gatherings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.249.7.24 (talk) 18:24, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

There are two key articles related to this Activism initiative ^[1] and this response from Greta Thunberg ^[2][3] aspects of manufacturing consent and controlled opposition and Gatekeepers all figure and the initiative should not be left here un-critically, the pedagogical aspects of Wikipedia should not be ignored to promote activism.^[4] I will work up a påaragraph with the first two references as this article is really a trotting out of the PR campaign from ^[5] RogerGLewis (talk) 06:05, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Housekeeping note: This discussion started when RogerGLewis added this paragraph to this article, and also to Greta Thunberg. Identical threads were started at both pages, and once I asked, per MULTI, Roger has decided to consolidate discussion at this talk page. I am taking liberty to reformat the proposed text Roger wants to add. I have not changed any of Rogers own words. My goal in refactoring/reformatting is to help make a comprehensible discussion. For the record, I think neutral "criticism" sections would be appropriate, the challenge is in finding acceptable RSs and presenting them fairly with regard to UNDUE WEIGHT and WP:Biographies of living people. Anyway, the text Roger originally added to both article reads as follows NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:29, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Greta Thonberg responded ^[1] to concerns of corporate capture of her message which has been expressed by the Wrong Kind of Green,^[2] an Indigenous peoples environmental group. ^[3] "We attempt to expose those who undermine the People’s Agreement. One role of the non-profit industrial complex is to undermine, marginalize and make irrelevant, the People’s Agreement. The reason being, to protect corporate interests by which they are funded. As well, the non-profit industrial complex protects the industrialized, capitalist economic system, responsible for the capitalist destruction of our shared environment. Those groups who continue to protect such interests must be considered complicit in crimes against humanity. RogerGLewis (talk) 19:16, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

/* Concerns of Corporate Green-washing */ I am reverting this new section if you wish to suggest and edit then please do It is clearly a concern looking at previous comments . I will initiate a consensus process if the revertiung continues. WH RogerGLewis (talk) 19:10, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

• The section about "Green-washing" is not appropriate in this article and is not sourced - please do not revert without further discusssionBorisAndDoris (talk) 21:24, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
• This content shouldn't be anywhere: it totally lacks secondary sources and thus fails WP:V spectacularly--not just because of lack of reliability, but the quality of the sourcing indicates this isn't noteworthy. Moreover, it's grammatically challenged: the "which" in "which has been expressed" refers in a very wonky way to "her message", since that is the closest antecedent, but I think it's meant to refer to "concerns", which is a plural and too far away for proper anaphoric reference. Finally, I think you left out a closing quotation mark in this longer comment; at first I thought you, RogerGLewis, were making a statement about complicity. Drmies (talk) 22:26, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
• It contains WP:SYNTH because Thunberg's words addressing pushback in general does not name the other sources provided here. That means RogerGLewis is doing WP:Original research to connect the dots. It is also a neutrality/BLP problem because the "About us" text from the criticizing blog is being used to imply Thunberg is an example of the those things the criticizing blog exists to do battle against. Another problem is the long quute from the criticizing blog is about the criticizing blog, not about the subject of this article, so it is off topic. And the text fails WP:Verification because none of the sources identify the criticing blog as "an indigenous people's environmental group". If it were not for all the other problems we might be able to say something with inline attribution to the authors of the blog column. Something like, "According to....". Maybe. But what we have here are self publishing people who self-describe their obvious advocacy pieces as "independent jouranlism". Who cares, everyone is entitled to an opinion and Wordpress blogs are free. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

• NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:37, 11 February 2019 (UTC)^[1] The concerns section is I think relevant to both articles which Page should we conduct the discussion it is probably easier to find consensus on one page and then discuss any changes to the core point which I think is a general point on most polarised positions in Political economy./* Criticism */ Consensus process nominate talk at extinction rebellion page for this discussion as well?^[2] RogerGLewis (talk) 05:22, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

• Sources supporting this content are too weak for a BLP article (probably also weak for any contentious claim in any article). Without better sourcing, there is no place for this in the article. Pavlor (talk) 06:13, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
• More comments by Roger NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:00, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Eseb User:Esebtalk)I wonder if you might like to comment on the proposes edit I share your concerns. RogerGLewis (talk) 06:24, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

SOme cririsisms of The Rong Kind of Green etc.. also some grammarian stuff, all very interesting Eats shoots and leaves and all that. LOL,

On the problem of Notability I offer two Searches One for Duck a Go Go ^[3] and one for Google ^[4]

You will note that the Wrong Kind of Green article comes in at no 3 in Duck a Go Go and on google the search term itself is cleary the subject of a dynamic shadow ban in the google algorithm itself. RogerGLewis (talk) 06:45, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

The Wrong Kind of Green is a collective and not a hierarchical patriarchal organisation as such it does not fit within the Categorisation negation of the media-industrial censorship complex barre mechanism, they avow to these principles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_People%27s_Conference_on_Climate_Change ^[5] The real grassroots of Environmental activism which Greta complains of not reading about in the Newspapers. These are all matters which Professor Piers Robinson^[6] has been studying and publishing on, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Robinson, and drawing the ire of the Huff post etc..,^[7] corporate greenwashing and capture of well-meaning movements is a part of the study of Manufacturing Consent. ^[8] and useful idiots^[9] , gatekeepers ^[10] and controlled opposition ^[11] do of course populate the organs of the Fourth Estate ^[12] including Wikipedia articles. RogerGLewis (talk) 07:04, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

• @Roger,

(A) When determining WP:CONSENSUS no one cares about the dubious WP:GOOGLETEST.

(B) Helpful suggestion, study WP:Arguments to avoid in discussions in general.

(C) Whatever else the WrongKindOfGreen might be, for Wikipedia purposes we care a great deal about the fact that it is a SELF PUBLISHED source. We have an explicit prohibition on self published sources in biographies of living people. That means you MAY NOT USE this blog on Greta's article. See WP:BLPSPS. On the flip side, Greta's self published words about herself are permitted, WP:BLPSELFPUB. As for using the blog in Extinction Rebellion, that gets back to the general rule about SELF PUBLISHED sources. We can't use self published criticism about third parties, especially when the criticism is advocating the self-publishing authors' own political and economic goals. Sorry.

(D) At article talk we should be focusing on content not our Wikipedia colleagues so I am troubled by your tendency to imply that one or more of us other editors are "useful idiots. gatekeepers... (who) populate the fourth estate". Please see WP:No personal attacks.

(E) Finally, if you keep beating the drum about the blog, without addressing the comments I and others have provided, you will drift across the line from new editor learning the ropes to an editor determined to engage in WP:Tendentious editing, which is an example of WP:Disruptive editing. We have a procedure for temporarily blocking editors from making changes, and its purpose is to prevent future problems rather than punish for past behavior. That is also the goal of my long comment here, prevention.

(F) Sure we can have a criticism section that meets our policies and guidelines. Please look for what Wikipedia defines as a reliable source, and steer clear of WP:PRIMARY sources. What we need for a good criticism section are secondary or tertiary sources. Although Wikipedia is a tertiary source, we are not allowed to cite ourselves as a reference. On the talk page, its OK to help others know what you're talkinga about, but we can't cite Wikipedia in a Wikipedia article. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:49, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

• First I want to say thank you to Roger for consolidating the discussion on one article talk page and to NewsandEventsGuy for helping Roger with the housekeeping. I agree with the above editors that the paragraph quoted above should not be included. XR and Thunberg don't seem to be related to The Wrong Kind of Green blog in any way; and the blog itself is not (yet) a reliable source or a notable organization. I sympathize with the issue that the blog discusses but including quotes from the blog's "about us" web page in these articles does not comply with our policies, guidelines, and best practices, especially for a BLP. Leviv ich 16:06, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you both for very helpful guidance, I will see what I can do time allowing. Regarding the allegation of biased canvassing, That was something of a fly in the appointment I reject the accusation, but I will not get in the way what is turning out to be a rather spiffing learning curve for my Wikipedia journey which is intermittent at best. It will take a while to read all the articles, the arcana of Wikipedia is endlessly fascinating of course, Yet one, as we all do I am sure, has to put Bread on the Table, the dreaded Day Job etc. Anyway, have a good evening Its 98 PM here in Sweden and I have a long night of Code Hacking ahead of me. Thanks again Levivich & NewsAndEventsGuy. RogerGLewis (talk) 19:02, 12 February 2019 (UTC) ;)

, , , Proposed new section revised.

This may have been a problem which puzzled philosophers for eons, but now it a practical problem here as XR becomes more prolific, organising simultaneous events across the world:

Do we list actions by time and subdivide by place, or by place and subdivide by time, or create a sortable table so that the reader can rearrange the data to suit their needs? Leutha (talk) 04:19, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Initially all actions were arranged by date irrespective of their location, then an editor split the international actions with the very little that had happened then outside UK, which was not really worth it then. Now, with the intensity of actions in London and the news reports coming out of it (the Guardian alone is producing two or three articles daily - I've added time name refs to keep track) the London actions need a section to themselves and probably could become a separate article as events continue. The sortable table worked on the School strike for climate page where most actions followed a similar pattern but each XR event is different and with the groups rapidly growing they will probably reinvent themselves in unexpected ways. So for the moment I'm in favour of keeping the current structure to avoid the confusion a rearrangement might create.BorisAndDoris (talk) 02:03, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I agree that we should wait and see before restructuring the information. Leutha (talk) 11:53, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

I have been trying to find a free image of the pink boat that can be used in the article as it seems to have been the iconic picture of the rebellion so far. If anyone has any ideas where I could search for a wikipedia usable image I'd be very grateful. BorisAndDoris (talk) 12:11, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks to @Andrew Davidson: for providing his own picture BorisAndDoris (talk) 10:31, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

You're welcome. I took several snaps. Here's a panorama, showing the boat in context. Andrew D. (talk) 11:22, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

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XR should be bold 219.79.97.212 (talk) 12:57, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

 Done B dash (talk) 13:10, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Move to article space. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. B dash (talk) 02:26, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

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The Controversies section needs to be much more extensive.

There is a serious concern about the corporate sponsorship through companies like Huawei and STRATFOR which the leadership tries to conceal in order to appear as a grassroots non-affiliated movement. See https://nowhere.news/index.php/2019/04/01/astroturfing-the-way-for-the-fourth-industrial-revolution/

There are also serious concerns about the willingness of the organizers to work with the police, especially coming from Anarchists who constitute a large part of the organization. They allowed immigration checks to happen on the occupied marble arch camp, and requested their members to sign a public google docs confession form declaring they're willing to be arrested.

They did not provide adequate support for arrestees or proper explanation for the arrest process, nor did they give out arrest cards which are standard in this kind of protests in London. They did not even inform members they must answer no-comment to any questions until they have a lawyer, again, this is standard in similar UK actions, and there is a sentiment that the leadership treats members as cannon fodder with little to no regards to the harm it might cause some people in the long run.

109.231.195.125 (talk) 13:04, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done Come back when you've got a reliable source. Schwede66 20:18, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Here is a more reliable source of critique, coming from Organize! by the Anarchist Federation: http://organisemagazine.org.uk/2019/04/24/careful-comrade-your-class-is-showing-xr-has-some-problems/

It's split into sections,and I appreciate it can be time consuming to asses but it's important to include some of these critiques in this article.

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Suggest modifying the following:

By late evening police were saying that 682 people had been arrested in London.^[1]

to this --

By late evening police had towed away the boat^[2] and were saying that 682 people had been arrested in London.^[1]

The source is pretty clear that the boat was impounded on Friday, which would be 19 April. - 170.55.36.237 (talk) 11:35, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

This looks pretty specific, but it also looks like the IP user didn't put the template in and just copied the header. Since doing anything more than minor edits right now is beyond my fuzzy head, I thought I would add the template and leave the evaluation to someone else. Thanks! Geekdiva (talk) 11:07, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

@Geekdiva: Thank you for adding the edit request template, but this request is nearly a year old, and is now outdated. {{replyto}} Can I Log In's (talk) page 16:49, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: This request is nearly a year old, and is now outdated. Section 3.1.1, paragraph 4 as of right now says Police partially cleared the Oxford Circus site, including removing the boat, whilst activists still occupied the road. {{replyto}} Can I Log In's (talk) page 16:49, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Wat? No source (the referenced Guardian article makes no mention of May). So, can someone please be bothered to edit this in a sensible way? --jae (talk) 05:12, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Added and linked Policy Exchange Report, and confirmed verbally with Simon Bramwell.FionaWeir1 (talk) 13:41, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

This article reads like an uncritical puff of the movement. 86.134.105.87 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:52, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Please specify where your concerns lie.Charles (talk) 17:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

I am surprised that wikipedia can allow such a biased treatment if the movement. 2A02:A03F:64B5:FF00:9D46:BA42:F610:1550 (talk) 07:21, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

As Charles said, please specify where your concerns lie. — Czello 08:43, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

"American philosopher and animal rights advocate Gary L. Francione criticised the movement for refusing to promote veganism as a solution to climate change, and for adopting the "personal/political" distinction [clarification needed] which he says "every progressive movement for the past 50 years has rejected because common sense tells us that you cannot ignore the role of the individual in creating and perpetuating social problems".[123]"

This should be removed for not clarifying. It makes no sense whatsoever, especially since "personal/political distinction" is not defined. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.132.25.119 (talk) 22:56, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Roger Hallam which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:33, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I have moved the actions section from this article to a new Timeline of Extinction Rebellion actions article because it was growing unwieldy and overly detailed. I have summarised those actions in this article's actions section. (I should have ideally instead made the edits in two parts rather than one, removing the content in the first edit and then adding the summary in the second, so as to make it easier to follow.) -Lopifalko (talk) 19:04, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Flying drones to disrupt airports was proposed, discussed and decisesively rejected by the XR membership. Heathrow Pause is not part of Extinction Rebellion and should not be redirected here.Charles (talk) 19:27, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I've fixed it; you could have done that yourself. :) Schwede66 23:42, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

I could have but there is nothing about it there. Will try to create a stand alone later, although it may not have lasting notability.Charles (talk) 06:37, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

Why did you bring you Heathrow Pause if it's not a part of XR?103.246.36.31 (talk) 07:00, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

This movement is designated as "non-political." Given the expansive nature of what is political, at least currently, is that designation accurate? 97.116.87.218 (talk) 16:34, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

It was changed from socio-political movement to non-political movement by an IP editor today in these edits. -Lopifalko (talk) 17:19, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

I don't think non-political is accurate. I haven't seen any sources say either way, so I think we should remove non-political until we have some sources which say whether it is political or not. Bellowhead678 (talk) 09:01, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

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Please change the main description: is an environmental pressure group with the stated aim of using civil disobedience to compel government action on climate breakdown, biodiversity loss, and the risk of social and ecological collapse.[1][3][4] To: is an anarchist movement attempting to change the 'toxic system' of western society and government through disruption and civil disobedience most recently centred around a climate emergency. Stuart Basden - Extinction Rebellion isn’t about the Climate Racitup (talk) 23:36, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. Since this is likely to be a controversial change, please discuss first and achieve a consensus before making this request. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 00:58, 14 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm not really going to enter into editing this article, but I think editors might like to give a bit more coverage to XR's common practice of disrupting public transport. Of course, mentioning the blatant contradiction of blocking environmentally friendly transport systems to protest about the environment would violate WP:NPOV, so the reader must be left to draw their own conclusions. But here are a couple of cite-worthy examples:

• Scheerhout, John; Smith, Simon (15 March 2019). "Manchester city centre trams blocked by 'school strike' climate protest". Manchester Evening News. Retrieved 17 October 2019.
• Weatherby, Bronwen (17 October 2019). "XR admit Tube protest was 'own goal' because it annoyed people". Evening Standard. Retrieved 17 October 2019.

Make of that what you will. Cnbrb (talk) 10:55, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

I have included info from the latter source and cited that source. However the former relates to the school strike movement and not to Extinction Rebellion. -Lopifalko (talk) 11:07, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Oh yes, fair enough. Well, all part of the same movement under different brands, I reckon, and indicative of a movement driven by irrationality in my book. But anyway, that's not for the article. See what comes up in the media for the Criticism section - could be interesting. Cnbrb (talk) 12:07, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Hi, I don't feel like it's my places to edit the article as I feel like its got a group of dedicated writers for XR. I feel like the article would benefit from a section labelled "structure and organisation". Rolling in details about liberation groups (Youth XR, BAME, women's, disabled etc.), geographic divisions, organisation of the group and membership. Single-issue groups would belong on the separate article

• Extinction Rebellion 'stemmed from failed bus lane protest' BBC News 1 September 2019 (say there are 100k members, doesn't specify national or global)
• Subgroups including Red Rebels , Vegan Subgroup , Grey Power.

Jonjonjohny (talk) 14:51, 17 October 2019 (UTC)

Hello. In the article section "Stated aims and principles", I suggest to add the following picture just below the green placard of XR. It illustrates the 10 principles and values of the movement. What do you think? Could someone do that? Thanks in advance. 144.85.230.16 (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2019 (UTC).

PS: It would be nice if the only article image on the left would be aligned on the right (as other illustrations). Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.85.230.16 (talk) 22:33, 19 October 2019 (UTC)

@144.85.230.16: Hi. It would illustrate them, but it wouldn't illustrate them well, being at an angle. Have we instead a photo of them head on? -Lopifalko (talk) 12:44, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

I do not dispute that as an organisation they profess non violence and there is only one major example of an individual being violent (understandably). However I think it is wrong that in the lead we state that they are a non violent organisation based on a couple of passing comments in sources as opposed to listing non violence as one of their methods of achieving their aims sourced to their own statement. It is also dubious to state that an organisation which encourages and promotes criminal damage to corporate entities is non violent - certainly it does not agree with our article on nonviolence here on wiki. So although I am quite happy for non violent to remain in the sentence it should be in the latter part as "with the stated aim of using nonviolent civil disobedience to compel government action to avoid tipping points in the climate system, biodiversity loss, and the risk of social and ecological collapse." Lyndaship (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

@Lyndaship: To your main point: OK. In answer to "It is also dubious to state that an organisation which encourages and promotes criminal damage to corporate entities is non violent - certainly it does not agree with our article on nonviolence here on wiki", I disagree. A quick look at our article on Nonviolence says to me that it frames it in terms of violence against people, not against property: "Nonviolence is the personal practice of being harmless to self and others under every condition. It comes from the belief that hurting people, animals or the environment is unnecessary to achieve an outcome..." See Direct action#Controversy over destruction of property for further elaboration of this point. -Lopifalko (talk) 06:32, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

There is of course a debate about if non violence only applies to people or also to property. Please see our nonviolence article under methods, it does not mention that violence to property is acceptable. On your direct action link it quotes two extreme organisations and then only mentions necessary minor damage to further facilitate an act of protest - very different from promoting spray painting buildings. However as I hope I have explained to your satisfaction my point is not to have ER labeled a violent organisation but to state that they believe themselves to be a non violent movement as opposed to use sources which mention in passing that they ARE a non violent movement which then asserts that in the article Lyndaship (talk) 06:55, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

The article needs updating. They targeted election campaign buses including an electric bus by the Liberal Democratics. https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/1204/1096984-uk-politics-election/

(78.16.185.246 (talk) 20:04, 6 December 2019 (UTC))

Here's a new initiative worth looking out for, just beginning to make the first news stories: Mobilize Earth.

There's now a stub article: Mobilize Earth. Esowteric+Talk 14:32, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

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Change the caption of the red brigade: Red Brigade protesters near the "New York Stock Exchange" 219.79.96.60 (talk) 16:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Done. -Lopifalko (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

This is a few months old but at least is official. Doug Weller talk 10:04, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

There were more protests in 2020. Can they be included in this article? The article talks about 2019 and earlier.103.246.36.31 (talk) 07:02, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Both the lead and the History section say that "Extinction Rebellion was officially established in the United Kingdom in May 2018" and "launched" at the end of October 2018. There is no difference between "officially established" and "launched", so both cannot be true. All of the five refs give October as the launch date as October; none of them even mention May. The Elle article says that it "began" in April 2018 when a group of activists me at Gail Bradbrook's house to draw up plans. I'm going to change to that in the History section, but leave it out of the lead, because it's not significant enough for there. 2001:BB6:4713:4858:15EA:DEF1:1414:82EE (talk) 12:02, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

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change "Extinction Rebellion (abbreviated as XR) is a UK-headquartered global environmental movement," to "Extinction Rebellion (abbreviated as XR) is a decentralized global environmental movement," Esd 359 (talk) 14:13, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. small jars tc 15:54, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

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Change the pages source to include "Category:Climate change organisations based in the United Kingdom" in square brackets at the end of the page as this is a climate organisation based in the UK Space Cadet Gone Rogue (talk) 19:54, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: the article is already in Category:Environmental organisations based in the United Kingdom which is a sub-category of Category:Climate change organisations based in the United Kingdom. Nthep (talk) 20:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: just rolled back the following Daily Mail citation that I had previously added regarding the HSBC bank protest:^[1]

I do not think that removal was appropriate. I acknowledge that the Daily Mail offers generally poor quality journalism. But two facts stand out in the case. First, court reporting in the United Kingdom is tightly regulated and those provisions apply to the material in question. And second, the article was informative, very well illustrated, contained a number of interesting quotations from the activists, and I saw nothing that contradicted my understanding of events. The photographs were credited to Reuters news agency.

I therefore ask that this citation be reinstated. And if not, then some explanation offered specific to these circumstances be provided. Both actions would seem appropriate. But conversely, an apparently blanket condemnation of Daily Mail reporting is surely counterproductive. And at odds with the ethos of Wikipedia too?

Thanks. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 06:15, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree absolutely and will reinstate your edit. Cheers! Terpomamanto (talk) 10:20, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I just want to record the commit message from Terpomamanto: "I read the Daily Mail article and agreed it was very informative and appeared non-biased. For context, I hate the Daily Mail (though this is not relevant to this edit), but this article seemed to be of good quality."

So we have a problem as I see it. This article is useful while its publisher is seen as pathologically unreliable.

Would it be possible for those rolling back edits to state some nuanced reasoning for their actions? And whether they have even read the article in question.

My earlier comment regarding court reporting rules is material too. TIA, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 11:51, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

The Daily Mail is deprecated and shouldn’t be used as a source at all. Please see WP:DAILYMAIL. Any information to be included should come from alternate sources. — Czello ^(music) 12:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Righto, I read the linked article and I agree that the use of the source in this article is against the guidelines (whether or not the source is accurate and good quality). Terpomamanto (talk) 14:00, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

A carve out for court reporting could be useful as a Wikipedia policy. Such reporting is tightly controlled in the United Kingdom. And probably why this Daily Mail article is of uncharacteristically high standard. In any case, I guess this thread can now be considered closed? Best, RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 14:14, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeh, I guess so. Maybe they should add that exception.

'And probably why this Daily Mail article is of uncharacteristically high standard' hilarious! Terpomamanto (talk) 15:10, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

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