Talk:Golden Bough (Aeneid)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
| This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Golden Bough (Aeneid) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the subject of the article. |
Article policies
|
| Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
 | Golden Bough (Aeneid) is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | |||||||||||||||||||||
 | This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on May 12, 2026. | |||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||
| This article is rated FA-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Suggested correction
lam very happy ineed license .lnow is the way to gow forward nothing roung tome I like to thanks all done good work 197.77.4.5 (talk) 13:04, 21 April 2015 (UTC)
- This probably deserves to be rejected, as it's not clear what corrections you want to be made to the article. 192.91.253.6 (talk) 20:54, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
This page looks broken
Hi all, the page is using a broken layout which does not fill the width of the screen and looks very different. Not sure when the edit was made? 2002:7C94:74DB:0:15F3:1605:8F9:FCA7 (talk) 11:29, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
GA review
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- This review is transcluded from Talk:Golden Bough (Aeneid)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Nominator: UndercoverClassicist (talk · contribs) 20:53, 1 February 2026 (UTC)
Reviewer: Chiswick Chap (talk · contribs) 16:35, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- Hi Chiswick Chap -- good to see you here. I had half a mind to reach out when I added the recent material on Tolkien. Looking forward to your comments. UndercoverClassicist T·C 16:51, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- Can't think how I noticed it! Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:03, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
Comments
Extended content |
|---|
|
Images
- All the images are Public Domain and properly licensed.
- They are all relevant to the article, but it would be helpful to the reader if the image captions could briefly draw out their relevance (e.g. why is Aeneas and Charon here?) A few words of explanation would guide the reader in each case.
- Why is Wenceslaus Hollar's imagery in the 20th-century section? It would be nice to add a brief cited mention of Hollar in the main text.
- It's not specifically relevant there -- but it's nice to have it somewhere in the article and we needed an image in that section. I'll have a look around some sources and see if I can find enough to put him in the prose as well. There was an image of the Company of the Ring in the Mines of Moria which might also serve in that section. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:22, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- We really shouldn't have images where they're not relevant. Charon is mentioned in the current text only in the first chapter (a possible image placement, I guess); but if you can find a bit more on Hollar that'd be great. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:38, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- Charon is relevant in the article (
The Sibyl shows the Golden Bough to Charon, who only then allows them to enter his boat and cross the River Styx.
and valuable to illustrate the article subject. I didn't draw this out directly, but Day (I think) joins the dots and says that if the Phial of Galadriel is the Golden Bough, then Shelob is Charon. It's nice for images to be directly relevant to the text to which they're adjacent but not a hard rule. With that said, I suspect this will become moot as there's at least a little bit written on Hollar, so then his images can go there. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:32, 2 February 2026 (UTC)- I've commented on Day above; if he has joined the dots then the reasoning is very welcome, and should be paraphrased and cited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:36, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- Day has
The Hobbits’ descent into Shelob’s Lair has been described as comparable to the descent into the Underworld in Virgil’s Aeneid. Gollum serves as Frodo and Sam’s guide, just as the Sibyl serves as Aeneas’ guide. Sam uses the Phial of Galdriel to overcome Shelob and escape, while a golden bough and a drugged cake are used to bypass Charon the Ferryman and Cerberus the three-headed Hell Hound.
Honestly, I don't think we can do much more with that than what we have (but see above for a small part of my reason for including it anyway: it's a very strong parallel). UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:11, 2 February 2026 (UTC)- It's strong once the supporting reasoning is quoted. It's no good quoting it to one GAN reviewer, it needs to be quoted in full or paraphrased so as to provide the reader with Day's perfectly coherent reasoning. At the moment all we've got in the article is the Phial, which is just one component, where all the others are essential. That is what more can be done with that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- Jackpot -- found another citation here (to J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment from Routledge) and added in. I've ducked the question of whose idea this is and gone for "has been described...", since an encyclopaedia is unlikely to be the first text to put the idea out there. They have
Sam uses the light of the Phial of Galadriel to overcome the guardian of the cave, Shelob, much as Aeneas used the golden bough to gain passage from Charon the Ferryman.
I'm not sure that really adds anything to what we have in the article, but in any case the WP:DUEWEIGHT case seems unavoidable. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:08, 3 February 2026 (UTC)- Well at least we've got a more solid source, and the katabasis and phial are now related. It's ok but still less good than the full quote from Day, actually (yes, a Tolkien editor is here happy with Day, you read it here first). The JRRT Encyclopedia had a troubled history and is a shadow of what it should have been, but some of its articles are excellent. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:35, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- Jackpot -- found another citation here (to J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment from Routledge) and added in. I've ducked the question of whose idea this is and gone for "has been described...", since an encyclopaedia is unlikely to be the first text to put the idea out there. They have
- It's strong once the supporting reasoning is quoted. It's no good quoting it to one GAN reviewer, it needs to be quoted in full or paraphrased so as to provide the reader with Day's perfectly coherent reasoning. At the moment all we've got in the article is the Phial, which is just one component, where all the others are essential. That is what more can be done with that. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- Day has
- I've commented on Day above; if he has joined the dots then the reasoning is very welcome, and should be paraphrased and cited. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:36, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- Charon is relevant in the article (
- We really shouldn't have images where they're not relevant. Charon is mentioned in the current text only in the first chapter (a possible image placement, I guess); but if you can find a bit more on Hollar that'd be great. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:38, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- It's not specifically relevant there -- but it's nice to have it somewhere in the article and we needed an image in that section. I'll have a look around some sources and see if I can find enough to put him in the prose as well. There was an image of the Company of the Ring in the Mines of Moria which might also serve in that section. UndercoverClassicist T·C 17:22, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
I've had a go at Hollar but I think we've hit a wall -- there are a couple of catalogue-like references (see e.g. here to one or more of the images, but nothing that really approaches scholarly commentary. The closest I could find was Godfrey, cited. If all we have is "Hollar made an illustration of a scene from the Aeneid for a translation of the Aeneid", I don't think we can really justify including it in the prose under WP:DUE, but the image is justifiable as an illustration of the subject (
Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. Each image in an article should have a clear and unique illustrative purpose and serve as an important illustrative aid to understanding the subject) and I think the information fine for a caption. On placement, see MOS:SECTIONLOC:
An image should generally be placed in the most relevant article section; if this is not possible, try not to place an image too early. In other words, it's desirable for an image to be immediately relevant to the text immediately adjacent to it, but the MoS allows for this not to be true if other factors intercede. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:41, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- All true, but there's no reason not to move the images up one section, where they will then span Frazer and Tolkien. In fact I'll boldly do that minor edit now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:10, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- This was a good idea, but looking at it on Vector 22 I don't think it worked -- it compressed the text between Frazer and Hollar and then left a big image-less void below. The spacing is better where it (now) is, and Vector 22 is the default skin for unregistered users, so that's the one we should design towards. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:23, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- I logged out and then tried it as an IP with the default skin, and was unable to reproduce the issue no matter what I did to the width of the window. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:39, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- This was a good idea, but looking at it on Vector 22 I don't think it worked -- it compressed the text between Frazer and Hollar and then left a big image-less void below. The spacing is better where it (now) is, and Vector 22 is the default skin for unregistered users, so that's the one we should design towards. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:23, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- All true, but there's no reason not to move the images up one section, where they will then span Frazer and Tolkien. In fact I'll boldly do that minor edit now. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:10, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- Then I think the main thing is to make the image captions a bit more explanatory, i.e. how they relate to the article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:54, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- Have you seen my new caption -- I think it does that job? UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:18, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
- Excellent, thank you! Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- But the same applies to the Tree of Knowledge; e.g. we'd say that "Proba repurposed the Golden Bough to refer to the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden." At the moment the visitor just sees a picture of a biblical scene incomprehensibly interpolated into a pagan article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:07, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- I think we're into matters of taste here: there are also good reasons to keep captions brief and not to duplicate material from the body text. The tree of knowledge is less obviously related to the Golden Bough than Hollar's etchings, but the text immediately adjacent clarifies the relationship. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:09, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- No; passing visitors often skim the lead and the images. Please could you extend the caption: "bits are cheap", and this article is not up against the length limits. Captions should be instantly intelligible, without having to search the text for something that seems to explain them. Thank you. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:31, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- That seems to contradict MOS:CAPTION:
Captions should be succinct; more information can be included on its description page or in the main text
(emphasis mine). See also MOS:CAPSUCCINCT:More than three lines of text in a caption may be distracting; instead, further information can be provided in the article body
(again, emphasis mine). We're already on our third line on Vector 22: I gave it a go addingFaltonia Betitia Proba used Virgil's verses concerning the Golden Bough to the tree
, which took us to five. Captions explicitly aren't part of the MoS covered by the GA criteria, but equally we shouldn't consciously break the MoS without good reason. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:46, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- That seems to contradict MOS:CAPTION:
- No; passing visitors often skim the lead and the images. Please could you extend the caption: "bits are cheap", and this article is not up against the length limits. Captions should be instantly intelligible, without having to search the text for something that seems to explain them. Thank you. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:31, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- I think we're into matters of taste here: there are also good reasons to keep captions brief and not to duplicate material from the body text. The tree of knowledge is less obviously related to the Golden Bough than Hollar's etchings, but the text immediately adjacent clarifies the relationship. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:09, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- But the same applies to the Tree of Knowledge; e.g. we'd say that "Proba repurposed the Golden Bough to refer to the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden." At the moment the visitor just sees a picture of a biblical scene incomprehensibly interpolated into a pagan article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:07, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- Excellent, thank you! Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:58, 3 February 2026 (UTC)
- Have you seen my new caption -- I think it does that job? UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:18, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
Sources
- All the sources are properly listed, and all appear directly relevant to the article.
- Spot-checks: [10] Bremmer ok; [37] ok; [60] Beard ok; [75] Huttar ok.
Summary
- This is a fascinating and well-researched article. If the scholarship seems a bit all over the place, that's probably a reflection of the world, not of Wikipedia. Most of my comments are no more than suggestions as the article says what it should, so I expect to pass this without much ado. Chiswick Chap (talk) 19:41, 2 February 2026 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Did you know nomination
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. You can locate your hook here. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Viriditas (talk) 21:54, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
( )
- ... that a golden branch in Virgil's Aeneid inspired a painting by Turner, poems by Yeats, and an anthropological study of ritual murder?
- Source: Smith, Jonathan Z. (1973). "When the Bough Breaks". History of Religions. 12 (4): 342–371. JSTOR 1062126. (anthropology); Shanes, Eric (1990). Turner's Human Landscapes. London: William Heinemann. pp. 219–222. ISBN 0-434-69502-5. (Turner); Roppen, Georg; Sommer, Richard (1964). Strangers and Pilgrims: An Essay on the Metaphor of Journey. Bergen: Norwegian Universities Press. pp. 344–345. OCLC 1005710. (Yeats)
- ALT1: ... that one seventeenth-century scholar argued that the Roman poet Virgil had been an alchemist, based on the appearance of a golden branch in his work? Source: Ossa-Richardson, Anthony (2008). "From Servius to Frazer: The Golden Bough and its Transformations". International Journal of the Classical Tradition. 15 (3): 339–368. ISSN 1073-0508. JSTOR 25691242.
- ALT2: ... that Christian re-interpreters of Virgil's Aeneid recast its Golden Bough as the Tree of Knowledge and as part of the story of Noah's flood? Source: Ossa-Richardson, Anthony (2008). "From Servius to Frazer: The Golden Bough and its Transformations". International Journal of the Classical Tradition. 15 (3): 339–368. ISSN 1073-0508. JSTOR 25691242.
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Jimmy Crystal (28 Days Later)
Improved to Good Article status by UndercoverClassicist (talk).
Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 45 past nominations.
UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:21, 3 February 2026 (UTC).
| General: Article is new enough and long enough |
|---|
Policy compliance:
- Adequate sourcing:
- Neutral:
- Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:
- Other problems:
| Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation |
|---|
|
| QPQ: Done. |
I believe the original hook (ALT0) is the most interesting. A.Cython(talk) 04:51, 4 February 2026 (UTC)- Any chance of adding a picture (looks nice at 140 px, and it's a sizeable article on an important subject): ... that a golden branch in Virgil's Aeneid inspired a painting by Turner (pictured), poems by Yeats, and an anthropological study of ritual murder? Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 05:47, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
_The_Golden_Bough_-_Joseph_Mallord_William_Turner_-_Tate_Britain.jpg)
- Honestly, I don't think that picture looks great at the size -- it's a landscape anyway, and you can't see any of the details (not least the bough itself!). We could crop it similar to the lead image in the article (which uses template magic to do so), but then the quality wouldn't be great, and it would cease to really "be" Turner's picture. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:25, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
- This one might work as an image?
- Here's a clip as close as I could make it to yours, which would make it: (Tate (Deiphobe=Cumaean Sibyl), Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 17:14, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
- ...that a golden branch in Virgil's Aeneid inspired a painting by Turner (detail pictured), poems by Yeats, and an anthropological study of ritual murder?
- This one might work as an image?
- Honestly, I don't think that picture looks great at the size -- it's a landscape anyway, and you can't see any of the details (not least the bough itself!). We could crop it similar to the lead image in the article (which uses template magic to do so), but then the quality wouldn't be great, and it would cease to really "be" Turner's picture. UndercoverClassicist T·C 06:25, 4 February 2026 (UTC)
_The_Golden_Bough_-_Joseph_Mallord_William_Turner_-_Tate_Britain_(detail).jpg)
- How about ALT3: Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 09:22, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
...that Pontormo's portait of Cosimo de' Medici (pictured) includes a Virgilian quotation from the Aeneid referring to the golden bough?
- @Maculosae tegmine lyncis: You've now made quite a few edits to the article, which has been a good thing (I'm particularly grateful for all the various examples of reception you've found), but it does create a conflict of interest with DYK reviewing. I think it might be best to get a
second opinion on this from an uninvolved reviewer. UndercoverClassicist T·C 12:17, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
- And a possible ALT4: Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 13:25, 18 February 2026 (UTC)
- @Maculosae tegmine lyncis: You've now made quite a few edits to the article, which has been a good thing (I'm particularly grateful for all the various examples of reception you've found), but it does create a conflict of interest with DYK reviewing. I think it might be best to get a
...that a mosaic with Aeneas and the Golden Bough (engraving pictured) attests to detailed knowledge of classical literature in late antique Britain?
.jpg)
Reception: Asterix?
How about his katabasis with Obelix into the criminal underworld of Lutetia in search of a golden sickle for mistletoe-harvesting?
Wittgenstein seemingly refers to Goethe's Urpflanze in his notes on (Frazer's) Golden Bough, which could help unite the two. I don't have access but, in Faust, 'The life-and-power-giving "Golden Bough" was apparently the golden mistletoe growing on the green oak" (re Mephistopheles' "grün des Lebens goldner Baum", I imagine), Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 13:05, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- We need sources with more than just "X author mentions the Golden Bough" (per MOS:POPCULT:
Cultural references about the article's subject should not be included merely because they exist. Cultural aspects of the subject should be included only if they are supported by reliable secondary or tertiary sources that discuss the subject's cultural impact in some depth ... if sourcing for a given cultural reference is such that a given article would be able to do little more than briefly mention it, then it doesn't merit inclusion in that article at all.
). Do we have that? As far as I can see, Remarks on Frazer's Golden Bough is about Frazer rather than Virgil. UndercoverClassicist T·C 13:11, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- this article connects Aeneas as tree (excised bough = covenant?) with his reaction to Dido, like an oak which (already) "in Tartara tendit", Aeneid IV. 446, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- Good find -- I've added that article. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:29, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "fides per aureum Vergilii ramum figuratur"—(Christian) faith is figured through Virgil's golden bough, p. 83 of Exploring the Forests of Antiquity: the Golden Bough and Early Modern Spirituality; Nemo potest venire ad me nisi ... traherit illum, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 18:33, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
- The Silver Bough in Irish Legend (p. 14) the Silver Bough (bearing (three) golden apples) for entry into the Otherworld is closer to Virgil than Frazer (same point here), Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 19:03, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
- golden bough as suppliant branch (akin to olive branch) The Golden Bough, Aeneas' Piety, and the Suppliant Branch, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 19:13, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
- Harpocration ἱκετηρία καλεῖται ἐλαίας κλάδος στέμματι ἐστεμμένος, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 21:53, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
- this article connects Aeneas as tree (excised bough = covenant?) with his reaction to Dido, like an oak which (already) "in Tartara tendit", Aeneid IV. 446, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:11, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
@UndercoverClassicist: Per p. 39 of this article, the bough is the origin of the sword-related trials (Sword in the Stone; cunctantem) of mediaeval tales; cf. p. 77 of Francesco Marzella Excalibur. La Spada nella roccia tra mito e storia Salerno Editrice; discussed pp. 32–3 here, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:10, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
- I don't have access, but the google summary of Brill has "The Golden Bough, the Holy Grail, the sword in the stone, the ... Why, in Virgil's tantalizing word cunctantem, does it hesitate?", Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 15:25, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
- I got hold of that last source -- it's more about parallels/commonalities between questing narratives (essentially: "the hero is always looking for something shiny"), and stops well short of saying anything direct like "I think the Holy Grail is golden because Virgil's Golden Bough is golden". Not sure there's much usable here -- as I said in the edit summary, one paper from a linguist in 1948 is definitely WP:FRINGE until proven otherwise, and I don't see that anyone else has come to the same conclusion (that the Golden Bough actually inspired important aspects of chivalric stories like the sword in the stone/golden bough) and put it to reputable print since. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:18, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
- how about "a trial along the lines of [the sword in the stone]" rather than "a trial inspiring [the sword in the stone]"; all three sources seemingly discuss in the context of a (parallel) trial, as does Paul-Augustin Deproost épreuve; Don Paul Fowler p. 104 "Excalibur motif"; also, p. 103, Augustus an initiate into the Eleusinian mysteries, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 21:33, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
- @UndercoverClassicist:West's The Bough and the Gate is reprinted in Stephen Harrison's Oxford Readings in Vergil's Aeneid, pp. 224–238 (I have a copy if you want to and can't access), Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 11:10, 18 February 2026 (UTC)
- Ah, of course. I've got it, but won't be able to get to it for a week or so: if you've got a scan in the meantime, I'd be much obliged. UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:13, 18 February 2026 (UTC)
- I got hold of that last source -- it's more about parallels/commonalities between questing narratives (essentially: "the hero is always looking for something shiny"), and stops well short of saying anything direct like "I think the Holy Grail is golden because Virgil's Golden Bough is golden". Not sure there's much usable here -- as I said in the edit summary, one paper from a linguist in 1948 is definitely WP:FRINGE until proven otherwise, and I don't see that anyone else has come to the same conclusion (that the Golden Bough actually inspired important aspects of chivalric stories like the sword in the stone/golden bough) and put it to reputable print since. UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:18, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
Possible image to accompany C20 poetry section: The Rebirth of the Arts, from the series The Great War: Britain's Efforts and Ideals (Charles Haslewood Shannon) "allegorical nude female winged figure in war-ravaged landscape, holding golden bough aloft", Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 19:37, 17 February 2026 (UTC)
music
In the early exchange between Aeneas and Deiphobe in Metastasio's Enea negli Elisi overo Il tempio dell’Eternità [de], first set by Fux in 1731, and which opens in an "oscura selvetta" with alternate (Y) paths to Dis and Elysium (and the elm from Aeneid VI. 283), there's mention of "L'aureo Ramo fatale" (1733 edition; can't find an earlier online version; Commons); synopsis mentions other opera settings of this libretto at the end, including by Sarti, Mysliveček, and Liverati. (The 1702 Bernardoni (librettist)/Badia (composer) Enea negli Elisi text does not include the bough (Commons).)
- Les fêtes théâtrales de Métastase à la cour de Vienne by Jacques Joly cites Dante & Virgil as sources for the oscura selvetta and bough , pp. 89–90, as well as quoting Metastasio's correspondence on how the work's real subject is exaltation of the otherworldly "Augusta" Elisabeth, pp. 87–8, Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 23:35, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
More recently, the last scene of Act I of Christopher Adler's chamber oratorio Aeneas in the Underworld is the Golden Bough (Brill); there's also this (but I guess not The Assassin Tree, based on Frazer not Virgil), Maculosae tegmine lyncis (talk) 16:29, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
- Don't think we can use Adler here: though the source is in an unimpeachable press, the author is the composer, so it's definitely not WP:INDEPENDENT. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:46, 13 February 2026 (UTC)
Peer review
Golden Bough (Aeneid)
 | This peer review discussion is closed. |
I've listed this article for peer review with a view to taking it to FAC in the near-ish future. I rewrote the vast majority of this article as part of my work on the Harvard School, and would be keen to have views from keen-eyed editors to pick out necessary improvements I've missed. One item high up my list is to replace the citations for the plot of the Aeneid with those to a slightly more scholarly work. I am also keen to make sure that the "Reception" section is as complete as it can be, so would be very grateful to hear from those with expertise in other fields who can point to omissions there (though NB that I have tried to make sure that the receptions in question are specifically of Virgil, rather than James Frazer's book and theories).
@Tim riley and MSincccc: I've just done quite a lot of expansion, thanks largely to sources found by Maculosae tegmine lyncis as a side-effect of a DYK review. Apart from the obvious "have I made a horrible typo?" question, I'm currently wondering:
- Does the lead do a satisfactory job of accounting for this -- it was already fairly long, so I made the conscious decision to tread fairly lightly.
- Are we starting to hit WP:TOOLONG for the article itself? I think we're pretty good under WP:DUEWEIGHT, in that the material is featured in proportion to its footprint in sources (the reception/Nachleben of this thing is much lengthier than the tiny bit of space it occupies in Virgil), but can sort-of see a case to spin out something like Reception of Virgil's Golden Bough if the overall article is over-bloated.
Your views, and those of any others interested, gratefully received.
Thanks, UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:38, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
Comments from Tim riley
It is sixty years since I had to endure the Aeneid as a schoolboy and I still wince at the memory of Instat vi patria Pyrrhus and the rest of it. So I'm reviewing this out of my – considerable – respect for UC and not for bloody Virgil.
- "a Greek religious rite centred around a symbolic journey " – there are those (of whom I am not one) who get thoroughly aerated about "centred around", insisting, logically but a touch fatuously in my view, that it should be "centred on". I merely mention it.
- Seems fair to me: changed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "Medieval commentators often considered it a symbol of wisdom, while Francis Bacon connected it": perhaps "while" is not the ideal word here as it may be taken to imply contemporaneity, and FB was the opposite of medieval. I'd use a semicolon instead.
- I've gone for "and": I worried that a semicolon might be seen as making the second sentence follow from the first (so implying that FB was medieval). UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "escorts him into the underworld to seek the shade of his father, Anchises." – "shade" breaks the flow a bit, suggesting it was as hot as Hell. Perhaps just "spirit" or "soul" or something unambiguous?
- Hm -- this is somewhat outside my expertise but I think there's a difference here: the Greeks/Romans generally thought of "shades" as ghostly reflections of a person (Latin umbra, lit. 'shadow'). It's certainly at least somewhat distinct from their "soul"/"spirit". Will think on this. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "start his descent into the Underworld. " – you really have to make up your mind whether or not to capitalise underworld/Underworld. At present the score is "underworld" nine, "Underworld" twelve.
- Can you tell I went back and forth on the capitalisation? Now gone with a capital throughout, since we're talking about the specific Graeco-Roman conception of it rather than the general idea of an afterlife. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "as the mid–first century" – I think (but am not certain) your en-dash here should be just a hyphen.
- I think we're good here, per MOS:PREFIXDASH. UndercoverClassicist T·C 15:02, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "a mystery religion of ancient Attica centered around the myth " – as above for "around" and we certainly don't need the AmE "centered" in an article otherwise written in the King's English.
- Both fixed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "close proximity between the instructions and the bough's resistance" – does one have proximity between things? I think I'd write "of".
- I'll defer to you. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "the poet Ezra Pound … the Irish poet W. B. Yeats" – Why tell us Yeats's nationality but not that of Pound?
- Added "American": see below for the macro-rationale. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "Yeats's countryman Seamus Heaney" … "The English painter J. M. W. Turner " – is it relevant that Heaney was Irish and Turner English?
- I thought "Yeats's countryman" was a good way to start Heaney's paragraph, which rather tied me to giving nationalities for people. I'm not completely stuck on doing so, though. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- "The scene also depicts several half-dancers " – what, pray, is a half-dancer? (A damn' sight better than me, no doubt, as I have two left feet and am not even a quarter-dancer.)
- I'm afraid that "half-naked" had dropped out; it's now back in. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
That's my lot. Given your extensive section on J. R. R. Tolkien, you may like to canvass the opinion of our resident expert on Tolkien, Chiswick Chap, who knows of what he speaks. You have a way of sidling into FAC without fanfare: please blow your trumpet in my ear when you get there with this. Tim riley talk 14:45, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- Grateful as always for your comments, Tim, and your sharp eye on the typos. Chiswick Chap did the GA review (which was excellent, and is in large part the reason I think the article may be within striking distance of an FAC run), but I should have credited him above -- that was an oversight. UndercoverClassicist T·C 14:57, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
MSincccc
- I came across this midway through my review of Harvard School, so I thought I had do a general prose review as always.
- Lead
- You could consider adding the language template (it looks British at a first glance but I am not entirely sure).
- That's all I have got on a first pass. I have made two minor revisions myself, and will return with anything more provided I get time off my exam prep. MSincccc (talk) 15:27, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- In Virgil's Aeneid
- "an old woman over seven hundred years old "
- I did not understand the purpose of this link.
- Seems to be an artefact of using the visual editor -- clearly it's not intentional to put a link on a non-breaking space. Now fixed. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:30, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- I did not understand the purpose of this link.
- Bottom line
- UndercoverClassicist The link to "Cumean Sibyl" and the missing language template are, hence, all I would point out here. The article's fine as it is, and I look forward to it at FAC. MSincccc (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2026 (UTC)
- In Virgil's Aeneid
- I came across the following citation:
{{refn|harvnb|Frantantuono|2007|pages=173, 177}}; [[Virgil]], ''[[Aeneid]]'' 6.384–416.}}
- Aside from the misspelt author name, I am unsure how to fix this. MSincccc (talk) 18:39, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
- There was a missing pair of {{ before "harvnb" (you can tell because the corresponding closing pair are after the page numbers). I've found and fixed it now. UndercoverClassicist T·C 20:21, 9 February 2026 (UTC)
- A second batch
- The lead is currently 392 words long, which I think is fine enough since WP:LEAD itself says:
The leads in most featured articles contain about 250 to 400 words.
- I will try to leave further comments (if any) later. The article's prose is fine enough (after a quick read through). MSincccc (talk) 07:18, 14 February 2026 (UTC)
Thank you all -- I think we're ready to go to FAC at this point, so I'll close this one and open the nomination. Further comments, of course, very gratefully received over there. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:34, 16 February 2026 (UTC)
Ottaviano de' Medici
Re the portrait of Cosimo de' Medici by Pontormo and this hidden editorial comment <!-- This book (https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Medici_Portraits_and_Politics_1512_1/7AMpEAAAQBAJ) says that Alessandro di Ottaviano de' Medici owned and may have commissioned the painting: assuming it's the same guy as Leo XI, he was only born in 1535, which would seem unlikely -- unless there's another person by the same name? -->
: I haven't looked at the book you cite, but there is almost certainly some confusion here between the future pope Leo XI and his father, Ottaviano de' Medici (1484–1546). Although his WP article says nothing about it, Ottaviano was the big art collector in this branch of the family, and the man behind the collection of Medici dynastic portraits: see L. Sterpetti, "Ottaviano de' Medici e la sua collezione: Arte e politica tra repubblica e ducato", Mitteilungen des Kunsthistorischen Institutes in Florenz 65 (2023), pp. 235–269 (doi:10.11588/mkhi.2023.2/3.113958). The portrait of Cosimo is mentioned on p. 254, where it is said to have been commissioned by Leo X and painted in Ottaviano's house. – Choliamb (talk) 20:31, 14 February 2026 (UTC)
- That must be the solution -- the cited book called him Alessandro, which I think is a mistake, but that article makes it work. It was the sort of "error" that's so clanging that I knew I must be the one missing something! Now added to the article. UndercoverClassicist T·C 19:45, 16 February 2026 (UTC)
The prefix mid- always requires a hyphen
You have "mid–first century" (en dash), "mid-twelfth century" (hyphen), "mid-second century" (hyphen), "mid–fourth century" (en dash), "mid-1980s" (hyphen). So you inconsistently use a hyphen for three of them (which is correct) and an en dash for two (which is incorrect). I know this is only a minor point, and it's hardly noticeable visually, but there is inconsistency within the article.
Please see this style guide explanation, which gives "until the mid-nineteenth century" as an example. Your MOS:DASH pointer has no relevant explanation for this particular situation. I would point you to MOS:HYPHEN which states that hyphens are used to link prefixes and suffixes with their main terms in certain constructions ("mid" is a prefix in "mid-twelfth century", etc.) Please also see the 20th century article, which has a few examples of "mid-20th century" with hyphen.
One thing I like to do is tidy upcoming TFAs, and I have a very good eye for detail. 
Rodney Baggins .talk. 08:14, 11 May 2026 (UTC)
- The guideline I was going on was MOS:PREFIXDASH, which says to use an endash when the prefix is attached to something that's more than one word. Here, it's not the (mid-first) century -- there's no century called the mid-first -- but the mid (first century). Most style guides don't use endashes quite as expansively as Wikipedia does, so I'm hesitant to take guidance from outside the Wikipedia MoS and apply it here, since it's unlikely to be internally consistent with what we do elsewhere. UndercoverClassicist T·C 08:30, 11 May 2026 (UTC)
- OK, I still disagree with you but whatever you do, please make it consistent within the article. I have a few more minor edits that I might make later. Rodney Baggins .talk. 08:48, 11 May 2026 (UTC)
[punctuation] Although Aeneas has been told that it will come easily, if his journey ...
I'd like to suggest changing: Although Aeneas has been told that it will come easily, if his journey is ordained by fate, Virgil describes the bough as briefly hesitating before he takes it. to: Although Aeneas has been told that it will come easily if his journey is ordained by fate, Virgil describes the bough as briefly hesitating before he takes it. [delete comma after "easily"] "come off easily"=main clause, "if his journey is ordained by fate"=subordinate conditional clause in post-position so without the need for a comma. The current punctuation seems to suggest that Virgil describes the bough if his journey is ordained by fate. MWDundon (talk) 13:43, 12 May 2026 (UTC)