Talk:History of Zionism (pre-1948)

The last paragraph of the Russian pogroms and Second Aliyah section includes "witnessed maltreatment of Jews by Russian troops" I don't see Telaviv1 and Cdjp1 that mentioned in either of the cited sources. Mcljlm (talk) 14:26, 2 February 2026 (UTC)

If it fails verification, remove it. I've checked 0 of the pre-existing references in the article, my first priority is making sure formatting has at least basic consistency. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:36, 2 February 2026 (UTC)

The current plan, once the transfer and expansion is completed-(ish), is to split into three articles covering:

• Forerunners and emergence of movement (up to section Early Zionist settlement) Currently ~5,200 words
• Movement (sections Early Zionist settlement to and including End of the Mandate and expulsion of the Palestinians) Currently ~9,700 words
• State (Zionist activity after the founding of the State of Israel) Currently ~700 words

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:32, 29 June 2026 (UTC)

Courtesy ping for @Bobfrombrockley: @Chicdat: -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:33, 29 June 2026 (UTC)

I will try to get as much of the transfer and expansion done as I can in the next week, as after that I am very busy outside of Wikipedia, so I can't say when I could next dedicate the time and effort to resolve the issues that will remain (missing pages, citations needed, further expansion).

As mentioned in other spaces, we will need to expand the article in post-1949, and link the current text more solidly to Zionism as a history of the ideology. The prior article also had a (completely unreferenced) section on socialist influences on early Zionism, including the contest between Zionism and Bundism, so this may need re-adding. Cleveland and Bunton 2024 do discuss this area, so I imagine their earlier editions probably do as well, if people can't access the latest edition. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 22:38, 29 June 2026 (UTC)

Does the plan include leaving a History of Zionism article summarising the three child articles? Samuelshraga (talk) 14:12, 1 July 2026 (UTC)

I hadn't thought of doing so, as I would think the trimmed history section in "Zionism" would act as such in effect. It would probably be better in the manner you suggest, but others would have to make the decision as to what should be included as an appropriate level of detail between the "Zionism" article's history section, and the child series articles. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:14, 1 July 2026 (UTC)

I have done some basic work today expanding the post-1948 section in advance of the split. It's taken from other articles and lacks refs, but I think it shows what we need to include and what a structure might look like. Not precious at all about it, so feel free to revert stuff. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:02, 1 July 2026 (UTC)

• Forerunners and emergence of movement (up to section Early Zionist settlement) Currently ~5,058 words
• Movement (sections Early Zionist settlement to and including End of the Mandate and expulsion of the Palestinians) Currently ~9,749 words
• State (Zionist activity after the founding of the State of Israel) Currently ~2,265 words

-- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:02, 7 July 2026 (UTC)

There is already an article on Proto-Zionism. There are currently three headings (Background, Jewish nationalism and emancipation, and Forerunners) before we actually get to Zionism. These should all be condensed into a section under a background heading, which should also cover the rise of nationalisms and antisemitism in Europe. Coverage of material before the late 19th century should be revised so as not to give UNDUE weight to the POV that Zionism is an intrinsic and inexorable part of Judaism. إيان (talk) 15:42, 7 July 2026 (UTC)

If we split the article as proposed (and nobody seems to oppose this), then the first one, "Forerunners and emergence of movement" would be a standalone article that we would, I think, want to merge the Proto-Zionism article into. As a standalone article, I think it would be fine for it to have three or four sections and not just consist of "Background" and "Birth of Zionism". I don't think the undue weight issue is an issue once it's a standalone article. BobFromBrockley (talk) 04:40, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

Post formation of the State of Israel is now at History of Zionism (1948–Present). As previously mentioned, information from the section on Proto-Zionism has been transferred to the article Proto-Zionism, and the section in this article trimmed.

This leaves this article now with a prose-length of 14,805 words. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:48, 28 July 2026 (UTC)

I have posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Palestine#c-إيان-20260706073800-POV issues with History of Zionism article to note that this article has severe POV issues in case there are editors able and equipped to help improve it. For example, the Nakba is not mentioned anywhere in the body of this lengthy article.

On a separate note, this article should also have a robust section on historiography that addresses how different narratives about Zionism and its history relate to political realities and objectives. إيان (talk) 07:45, 6 July 2026 (UTC)

How do you feel about the proposed split, and if there was a split where would the historiography go (or could it be a standalone article)? When we move from the history to the historiography, texts on the history become primary rather than secondary sources so I would strongly plead that editors building a historiography section start with the best sources on the historiography, and not by listing voices who write about the history, and that way we may be able to build something robust and not get caught in yet another ARBPIA battleground. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:11, 6 July 2026 (UTC)

Point about Palestinian dimension is important (if maybe overstated). I've strengthened the Nakba content in the "End of the Mandate and expulsion of the Palestinians" section, using the sources in 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight and Plan Dalet(which adds +2,951). I think the "Palestinian national leadership" section should also be expanded (possibly with a broader section title), to reflect the emergence of modern Palestinian nationalism in the wake of Bafour. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:32, 6 July 2026 (UTC)

Have now added a para to that latter section, although I realise there's now two mentions of the MCA and PAC so might be repetition. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:42, 6 July 2026 (UTC)

Agreed. How does the lead fail to mention Palestinians or Arabs even once, where the main article does so in all of the first three lead paragraphs and indirectly in the fourth? The #Article needs a complete rewrite section above does a great job of explaining the problems. Luckily, this article is getting a lot more attention, and in the coming days I plan to go through the article with a fine tooth-comb and 10 TWL tabs open to help fix the POV issues. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 07:22, 7 July 2026 (UTC)

As some notes, the "rewrite" comment was written before the merge, though many points are likely still relevant, due to the second note. The second note is that, as you highlight the introduction of the "Zionism" article, much of the discussion on Palestinians in the Zionism articles occurred in sections outside of the "History" section, so did not get covered in great depth in the merge. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 09:23, 7 July 2026 (UTC)

What wording would you propose for the lead? BobFromBrockley (talk) 02:42, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

@Bobfrombrockley: in this edit you added a reference to "Pappé 2002", can you provide the full citation for this? -- Cdjp1 (talk) 10:02, 12 July 2026 (UTC)

Good question. It looks like a mistake. I think it’s the following but need to verify:

• Pappé Ilan (2004) A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-55632-5

BobFromBrockley (talk) 02:30, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

Oh no actually I took it from the Muslim-Christian Associations article which cites this:

• Pappé, Ilan (2002). The Rise and Fall of a Palestinian Dynasty. The Husaynis 1700–1948. AL Saqi. ISBN 978-0-86356-460-4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

But I’ve not verified it, was trusting article BobFromBrockley (talk) 02:33, 15 July 2026 (UTC)

I'll see if my libraries have the books available to borrow and will correct if necessary. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 15:24, 18 July 2026 (UTC)

I've added the information from the subsections "Proto-Zionism" and "First Aliyah" to the Proto-Zionism article, so we can no trim them down in this article. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 13:59, 20 July 2026 (UTC)