Talk:Latin Catholics of Malabar

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Cleanup

The article is messed up with POV writings by misinterpreting sources. It is not at all clear how the article is related to the common attire of unrelated communities and the Upper Cloth Revolt. A righteous cleanup is suggested. R.C^{Outlander07@talk} 15:12, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Removing Malabar from the heading

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The word Malabar is no where used and even in the government of Kerala Gazette it is just Latin catholics. Also , in all official documents in the church it's Latin Catholic Church. Physicallyinorganic (talk) 09:20, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Physicallyinorganic: Seeing as this article is about Latin Catholics in the Malabar region, removing Malabar would be rather improper—especially if your preferred title is "Latin Catholics". If you believe the title should be "Latin Catholics of Kerala", we can perhaps discuss that. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:22, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I definitely feel that Latin Catholics of Kerala is far suitable than Malabar.

1. Is the reason that I stated above

2. Malabar region also includes Goan , Mangalorean Catholics and East Indians, but this article is only about Kerala.

Btw , should I enquire about it in the Church?? Physicallyinorganic (talk) 14:25, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Physicallyinorganic: Well, you'll have to find other support for this proposal since I oppose on the grounds that this article is regarding Latin Catholics and their history, including periods long proceeding the establishment of modern Kerala. This article should also feature portions on Goa, but Keralans have demonstrated more interest in Wikipedia. As for asking the Church, I have no idea what you mean. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:30, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

More information Late comment: Discussion is four year old. ...

Late comment: Discussion is four year old.

:Support:

@Physicallyinorganic:

You made an important point earlier — the term “Malabar” has never been used for the Latin‑rite community in any official context, either by the Church or the Government of Kerala. That remains fully accurate today.

A new discussion has now been initiated, and I support the move to use the title Roman Catholics of Kerala. It is the clearest and most precise name for the community, avoids confusion with the Eastern Catholic Churches, and reflects how the community identifies itself.

It reflects:

Government terminology (Roman Catholic (Latin))
Vatican terminology (Roman Catholic Church) - All official declarations and Notifications says 'Roman Catholic Dioceses of ...' so and so.
Community self‑identification - All Dioceses in Kerala and Churches identify themselves as Roman Catholics.
The need for clarity in a multi‑ritual context (Roman, Syro‑Malabar, Syro‑Malankara)

PJohnTimes (talk) 20:58, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

First of all , i am belong to the Latin Catholic community. I can enquire about the whether Kerala or Malabar is suitable here.

~This article should also feature portions on Goa, but Keralans have demonstrated more interest in Wikipedia ~ i didn't understand this line.. Physicallyinorganic (talk) 14:35, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Btw we never use Keralans , it's malayalis and people Goa from are called Konkanis or Goans. Physicallyinorganic (talk) 14:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

If you take the Malabar district specifically the no. of LCs are very less. LCs are mainly in Ernakulam, Kollam and Thiruvananthapuram districts.. Physicallyinorganic (talk) 14:40, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Wait,I shall send proofs supporting my argument.. Physicallyinorganic (talk) 14:41, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

These messages are for @pbritti Physicallyinorganic (talk) 14:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Physicallyinorganic: Any edits have to be based on reliable sources. Asking your pastor or a member of the Latin Church in the area would not qualify. When you have reliable sources for these things, post them here and we can work out some edits. This article is about Latins in the whole of the Malabar Coast, but editors from Kerala predominate this topic, leading to a tendency of more discussion of things from this region. Please do not submit multiple different signed messages at a time; it clutters talk pages rapidly. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:43, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

This article is about LCs in Kerala , just read it. In the first line itself it is given that province Verapoly and Trivandrum , then how can it be of the whole Malabar coast. According the to GoK 100% of LCs have malayalam as mother tongue. All of your arguments contradict the first para of the Article even the words written in malayalam contradict whatever you said. LCs are just 2% of the total population of the state. OR why dont we start another page called LCs of Kerala.^[1]^[2] btw , you are from Colorando while I am local and belong to LC. If you want my caste certificate i can provide.

hope you get itPhysicallyinorganic (talk) 15:20, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Physicallyinorganic: You can't cite Wikipedia as a source on Wikipedia. Being a local is irrelevant to reliable sources. Caste certificates are, similarly, irrelevant. The book you provide does not change the purpose of this article. If you can find additional sources that address Latin Catholics exclusively in the context of Kerala, we can narrow the scope of this article from Malabar to Kerala. Otherwise, it should remain as is. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:27, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I strongly recommend that it should be Kerala. Physicallyinorganic (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey, what all formalities are remaining for the name change? Also can you atleast provide an official source where it is Malabar instead of Kerala.Physicallyinorganic (talk) 03:56, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

@Physicallyinorganic: Typically, when a move (which is what it is called when a page name is changed) could be controversial, there's a vote. You can find more info on WP:MOVE. A good example a move vote can be found at Talk:Syro-Malabar Church. Any move must be supported by sources and WP:COMMONNAME. Let me know if any part of the process is giving you trouble. ~ Pbritti (talk) 06:46, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

References

[1]
"Malabar Coast".
[2]
Thayil, Thomas (2003). The Latin Christians of Kerala: A Study on Their Origins. Kristu Jyoti Publications. ISBN 978-81-87370-18-5.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2024

St. Thomas latin Christian tharavadu

Narani

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2025

Requested move 18 March 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: I have closed this (without prejudice) as there is No Consensus here for this move. Also, serious doubts have been raised concerning the validity of the request, ie. that the sources quoted (and perhaps the request itself) have been AI generated and posted without being fact-checked beforehand. I suggest any further requests for a page move be a) written in the requesters own voice and b) have supporting information that is fact-checked. (non-admin closure). Moonraker12 (talk) 13:37, 8 April 2026 (UTC)

Latin Catholics of Malabar → Roman Catholics of KeralaRoman Catholics of Kerala – The current title Latin Catholics of Malabar is inaccurate and misleading for several reasons:

The community is not limited to the Malabar region. Roman Catholics are historically present throughout Kerala, including Thiruvananthapuram, Kollam, Alappuzha, Ernakulam, Thrissur, Kannur and Kasaragod. The term “Malabar” refers only to the northern part of the state and does not represent the community as a whole.

Reliable sources, including the Kerala Government Gazette, use the term “Roman Catholic (Latin)” when referring to this community.

 – Kerala OBC List (Government of Kerala Gazette Notification, 8 August 2023): https://fliphtml5.com/cmzub/sntx/Syro_Malabar_Syrian_Catholic_Gazette_Notification_8.8.2023/

“Roman Catholic” is the correct ecclesiastical and governmental terminology. “Latin Catholic” is a liturgical designation, not the community’s proper name. The Catholic Church itself uses “Roman Catholic” for the Latin‑rite faithful.

The proposed title is consistent with naming conventions used for other Kerala Christian communities (e.g., Syro-Malabar Catholics, Syro-Malankara Catholics), and accurately reflects the geographic scope.

For these reasons, I request that the article be moved to Roman Catholics of Kerala.

Adding supporting links:

Wikipedia Names:

Roman Catholic Diocese of Kannur and Roman Catholic Diocese of Quilon (Changed after posting this request)

Below pages also support:

Diocese of Punalur, Roman Catholic Diocese of Punalur (Intro)

Diocese of Vijayapuram, Roman Catholic Diocese of Vijayapuram (Intro)

Wikipedia Redirects with Title Roman catholic, even this page have a redirect:

Diocese of Sultanpet, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Sultanpet

Archdiocese of Calicut, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_Calicut

Archdiocese of Trivandrum, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Trivandrum

Diocese of Alleppey, Roman Catholic Diocese of Alleppey

Diocese of Neyyattinkara, Roman Catholic Diocese of Neyyattinkara

Diocese of Punalur, Roman Catholic Diocese of Punalur

Diocese of Quilon, Roman Catholic Diocese of Quilon

Archdiocese of Verapoly Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Verapoly

Diocese of Cochin, Roman Catholic Diocese of Cochin

Diocese of Kottapuram, Roman Catholic Diocese of Kottapuram

Official Websites of Kerala Dioceses, identifies themselves as Roman Catholics (explicitly stating) :

Roman Catholic Diocese of Sultanpet, https://sultanpetdiocese.org/ (Home Page) and https://sultanpetdiocese.org/images/all-img/homebanner.jpg

Roman Catholic Diocese of Quilon, https://quilondiocese.com/ (HomePage) and https://quilondiocese.com/wp-content/themes/Diocese_of_Quilon/images/logo.png

Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Verapoly, https://verapoly.in/ (Home Page) and https://verapoly.in/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/cropped-LOGO.png

Adding Google map Listing of major Cathedrals (only adding 3 as example - can add more):

Archdiocese of Verapoly, Cathedral: St. Francis Xavier’s Cathedral, Ernakulam - https://maps.google.com/?q=St.+Francis+Xavier%27s+Cathedral+Ernakulam

Archdiocese of Calicut, Cathedral: Mother of God Cathedral, Kozhikode - https://maps.google.com/?q=Mother+of+God+Cathedral+Kozhikode

Archdiocese of Trivandrum, Cathedral: St. Joseph’s Metropolitan Cathedral, Palayam - https://maps.google.com/?q=St.+Joseph%27s+Metropolitan+Cathedral+Palayam

PJohnTimes (talk) 14:17, 18 March 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 20:09, 27 March 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. TarnishedPath^talk 05:16, 4 April 2026 (UTC)

Oppose: The proposed move actually be inconsistent with naming conventions of other articles, as those churches are called by their actual names. Here, we're talking about members of the Latin Church, which is the correct ecclesiastical and government nomenclature (contrary to what's stated above). Indeed, "Roman" more properly only applies to their liturgy, the Roman Rite. Essentially the inverse what is described above is the case, which is why this article is already has the correct name, Latin Catholics of Malabar. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:35, 18 March 2026 (UTC)
@Pbritti:

Thanks for your comment. I’d like to clarify a few points:

1. The Government of Kerala does not use “Latin Church” as the community name.

The official Kerala OBC List uses the term “Roman Catholic (Latin)” when referring to this group.

This is the government’s formal nomenclature.

2. In ecclesiastical usage, “Roman Catholic” is the standard global term for members of the Latin Church.

The term is not limited to the liturgy; it refers to the entire Latin‑rite Catholic community.

3. The current title is geographically imprecise.

Roman Catholics are present throughout Kerala, not only in the Malabar region.

“Malabar” excludes major dioceses in the south.

4. Per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRECISION, titles should reflect the name most commonly used in reliable sources.

In Kerala, the community is widely referred to as “Roman Catholics” or “Roman Catholic (Latin)”.

A further clarification regarding terminology and usage:

1. Kerala has three Catholic communities:

• Roman Catholics (Roman-ritre/Latin Church)

• Syro‑Malabar Catholics (East Syriac)

• Syro‑Malankara Catholics (West Syriac)

Because Kerala includes two Eastern Catholic Churches, the term “Roman Catholic” is widely used in Kerala to distinguish Latin‑rite Catholics from the Eastern Catholics. This is reflected in government, academic, and ecclesiastical usage.

2. In global Catholic terminology, “Roman Catholic” is the standard name for members of the Latin Church.

This is not limited to the liturgy. On Wikipedia itself:

• Roman Catholic Church uses “Roman Catholic” to describe the Latin Church and its faithful.

• Roman Catholicism defines the term as the faith of the Latin‑rite Catholic community.

• Roman Rite uses “Roman Catholic” to describe the people who follow the Latin liturgy.

• Kerala’s Latin dioceses (e.g., Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Verapoly, Roman Catholic Diocese of Cochin, Roman Catholic Diocese of Quilon) are all titled “Roman Catholic,” not “Latin Church Diocese”.

This shows that Wikipedia consistently applies “Roman Catholic” to the Latin‑rite community as a whole and the people of Latin Church in Kerala is called - Roman Catholics to also distinguee between Eastern Catholics in Kerala.

3. Government usage in Kerala also distinguishes Latin Catholics from Eastern Catholics using the term “Roman Catholic (Latin)”.

The Kerala OBC List (Kerala Government Gazette, 8 August 2023) uses the exact phrase “Roman Catholic (Latin)” as the official community name.

Given these points, the proposed title “Roman Catholics of Kerala” aligns with:

• Wikipedia’s own naming conventions

• Government terminology

• Global ecclesiastical usage

• The need to distinguish Latin Catholics from Eastern Catholics in Kerala

• WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRECISION

Given these points, the proposed title aligns more closely with both official usage and common naming in reliable sources. PJohnTimes (talk) 09:18, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
You're using AI to write your responses and to insert unsourced material in the article. I would refrain from attempting to contest this point further. ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:08, 20 March 2026 (UTC)
I’d like to keep the discussion focused on content and policy. The points I have raised are based on verifiable sources, existing Wikipedia usage, and naming conventions such as WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRECISION. Whether an editor uses tools to help draft text is not relevant under Wikipedia policy; what matters is that the arguments are supported by reliable sources and align with guidelines.

If there are specific policy‑based objections to the proposed title or to the sources cited (e.g., government terminology, Annuario Pontificio usage, Canon Law terminology, or existing Wikipedia naming patterns), I’m happy to address them. Otherwise, I believe the discussion should remain centred on the merits of the requested move. PJohnTimes (talk) 17:29, 22 March 2026 (UTC)
This isn't even true! You keep citing sources that explicitly contradict you. For example, I would encourage you to read Canon 1 of the Code of Canon Law: "The canons of this Code regard only the Latin Church." Perhaps you'd also benefit from actually looking at the Annuario Pontificio, which refers to the "Latin Church" (in Italian, of course). AI is really, really selling you short here–stop using it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 22:41, 22 March 2026 (UTC)
Yes — the Annuario Pontificio uses “Latin Church” as the canonical category. I am not disputing that at all.

My point is simply about the English naming used for the dioceses themselves. In the Annuario Pontificio and in Vatican communications, the dioceses in Kerala are presented under their English titles beginning with “Roman Catholic Diocese of …” and “Roman Catholic Archdiocese of …”. That is the standard English form used for the Latin‑rite dioceses, even though the internal canonical classification is “Latin Church”.

And Yes, it’s Italian - not an extinct language, it can be translated!

So there is no contradiction here:

• **Canonical category** = Latin Church

• **English diocesan titles** = Roman Catholic Diocese of X

That is the distinction I am making.

Also, I would appreciate if we could keep the discussion focused on content rather than comments about AI or how someone chooses to draft their text. I’m responding based on the facts as they are used in Church documents and Vatican practice.

And why do you think all the Wikipedia pages of Kerala Dioceses starts with Roman Catholic Diocese of X?

PJohnTimes (talk) 23:45, 22 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti Wrong it's the Latin Rite and not Roman Rite. There are multiple rites within the Roman Catholic Church like Latin Rite, Ambrosian Rite etc. Thus "Roman Catholics of Malabar" is the correct terminology. K# (talk) 16:10, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

@PJohnTimes *Support – As a member of the community,

the term "Roman Catholics of Kerala" is the common and

self-identified name widely used by this community in ecclesiastical, gazetted documents and everyday usage. Per WP:COMMONNAME.

Reference 1 : Malankara Library

Page no. 11, states that the community consists of "Latin (Roman) rite Christians".
Page no. 74 explains : "Roman Catholics

are Latins and they are composed of Arawatinarleecar (people of 64 villages) from Brahmins and Nairs, of moonootikar (the

three hundred) "mostly from domestic slaves", of Unutekar (Anjootikaar or the Five Hundred). from Macuas (fishermen) and the low castes, and of Erunootiicar (the Seven Hundred) who are "descendants of soil slaves".

Page no. 83 states, " Latins are Roman Catholics"

Reference 2:

Catholic.com - Why Roman Catholics

Explains what "Roman Catholics" are and how it is the modern standard which serves the purpose of differentiating the followers of Roman Rite Catholicism from the Eastern Rites.

Reference 3:

Turner, Paul (2007). When other Christians become Catholic. [Liturgical Press. p. 141. ISBN 978-0-8146-6216-8]. "When other Christians become Catholic: the individual becomes Eastern Catholic, not Roman Catholic"

Reference 4:

Catholic Times Columbus

Quotes : "In fact, the largest part of the Catholic Church is known as the Latin Church, also referred to as the Roman Catholic Church."

Reference 5:

Biblical Encyclopedia - Roman Catholic

Explains the usage of the term Roman Catholic. To quote the author McClintock, p. 71, quote: "The name [Roman Catholic Church] may be found in a number of Roman Catholic writers, and is generally used in the constitution of those states in which the Roman Catholic Church is recognized as one of the recognized or tolerated State churches. It is, however, not the official name used by the authorities of the Church who rather dislike it, and substitute for it the name 'Catholic' or 'Holy Catholic' Church. The name 'Roman Church' is applied, in the language of the Church, to the Church or diocese of the Bishop of Rome."

Reference 5:

Below are provided multiple Dictionary References to state the. term Roman Catholic and Latin Catholic are synonymous.

"Catholic". Collins Dictionary. Retrieved October 30, 2023.
"Roman Catholic". Colins Dictionary.
"Roman Catholic". Oxford English Dictionary.
"Definition of CATHOLIC". www.merriam-webster.com.
"Definition of ROMAN CATHOLIC".www.merriam-webster.com.

I hope these references are added to strengthen the article nevertheless any rejection of the current move request. K# (talk) 14:38, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

The article concerns Latin Catholics of Malabar, a religious and ethnic community, not a '''church''' institution. The page is about Latin '''Catholics''' of Malabar and not Latin '''Church''' of Malabar. K# (talk) 10:44, 8 April 2026 (UTC)

@PJohnTimes: I know for a fact that you're not reading any of the sources you cite. How do I know? Your reply (or, rather, your AI) presumes that Wikipedia names for articles on the dioceses in question are titled "Roman Catholic Archdiocese of X". Click on Archdiocese of Calicut. Or this. Or this. Or this. Notice how they do not conform with what your AI is saying. Any further AI-written responses will be ignored as a waste of project resources. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:09, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Diocese of Quilon

I think you just want to tag AI on me to discredit rather than looking at what I am saying. Nothing fruitful will come out of it. PJohnTimes (talk) 00:32, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

You keep using AI and making false claims. You can't be upset when people point that out. As for the above, that was an example of an article that was missed while implementing this consensus. I have gone ahead and fixed it. ~ Pbritti (talk) 01:05, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Diocese of Kannur PJohnTimes (talk) 11:46, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

@PJohnTimes Support – The Latin‑rite Catholic community of Kerala is part of the wider Roman Catholic population of India, all of whom identify as Roman Catholics.

Wikipedia articles as an example, “Roman Catholic” for Latin dioceses across India

Examples:

Akshayaugustine0475 (talk) 16:04, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

@Akshayaugustine0475: Are you aware of why those relatively few articles have "Roman Catholic" in their title? It serves as a disambiguation when other articles have similar names; there was a general consensus to otherwise remove those disambiguations and editors expressed their general disapproval of "Roman Catholic" as the default disambiguation in this discussion. Here, "Latin" is the preferred disambiguation–you even referred to them as The Latin‑rite Catholic community in your above comment. Your sudden presence in this discussion is also somewhat interesting, given your overlap with PJohnTimes in editing behavior. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:38, 23 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti Wouldn't a better approach be mentioning that Latin Catholic and Roman Catholic are interchangeable and refers to the same religious group? Also why is Syro Malabar Church mentioned as the "Roman Catholics of Syrian Rite"? That's historically and terminologically wrong. All I'm proposing with an edit is to fix the confusion regarding what Roman Catholicism is. K# (talk) 16:31, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

You are right, I am from Kerala, and a Roman catholic, myself and everyone I know, identify themself as Roman catholic. This page title is very confusing. Malabar - no one uses it to represent Kerala - and catholic missionaries first came to Kollam!

Kerala have a diverse Christian community, disambiguation is necessary. PJohnTimes (talk) 08:26, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@PJohnTimes Exactly what my point is. We should focus on adding more references on this matter. K# (talk) 11:36, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Note: Noticeboard for India-related topics, WikiProject Kerala, WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard, WikiProject Christianity in India, and WikiProject Catholicism have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 05:17, 4 April 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Discussion: Recent edits to Religion and Ritual section

Hi @Pbritti thanks for reviewing the recent edits and for maintaining the article’s quality. I noticed the edits were reverted with the note “multiple errors and possible original research.” I’d like to clarify the sources and work together to improve the section.

The material I added was based on published academic and government sources, including:

• Kerala Government Gazette (OBC List), which uses the term “Roman Catholic (Latin)”

• Vigimole P. S., *The Surprisingly Ecumenical Inception of Latin Christianity in Kerala* (2022)

• K. T. Achaya’s historical work

• Documentation on the Synod of Diamper (1599), including its reforms on marriage and prohibited customs

• Historical accounts of Latin–Syriac liturgical exchange (e.g., translation of Latin hymns like the Te Deum into Syriac)

• Educational contributions by Bernardine Baccinelli (pidiyari system)

• Early women’s education through Mother Eliswa Vakayil

None of the content was intended as original research, and I’m happy to provide inline citations for each point or adjust wording where needed.

Could you please point out which specific parts you found problematic? I’m fully open to refining the text so that it meets WP:NPOV and WP:V while preserving historically documented material.

Thanks for your time and collaboration.

— PJohnTimes PJohnTimes (talk) 15:18, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

@PJohnTimes: Hi, I am happy to more individually review each source and ensure that it is in conformity with our sourcing guidelines. For future reference, you can properly ping other editors using the following scripts: {{ping|UserName}} or {{re|UserName}}. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:27, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. I appreciate your willingness to review the sources individually.

To make the process easier, I can list each claim with its corresponding citation so we can evaluate them one by one. All the material I added is based on published academic works, church history sources, or government documents (e.g., Kerala Gazette).

Once we go through them together, I’m happy to refine wording or adjust anything that needs clarification. My goal is simply to ensure the article reflects verified historical information in a neutral way.

Let me know if you’d like me to start listing the sources claim‑by‑claim. PJohnTimes (talk) 15:35, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

I would say that it's probably not worth bothering, as I am unlikely to support your insertions due to the apparent absence of accurate sourcing. I'll use a fairly stereotypical example of what the errors in your work were. You cited Achaya's Indian Food: A Historical Companion extensively for many things, including "They are concentrated mainly in the coastal regions of Thiruvananthapuram, Kollam, Alappuzha and Ernakulam districts." However, reviewing the contents of that book, it makes no mention of that information. The same applies to almost everything cited to that source. The most extensive description of Christians in that book occurs on page 74, where Latin Catholics of Malabar receive only an oblique mention. Another mention occurs between pages 169 and and 170, but that is mostly concerned with the introduction of Portuguese cuisine and the observations made by European missionaries.

More humorously, you inserted Vigimole's work into the article with the incorrect name of "The Surprisingly Ecumenical Inception of Roman Christianity in Kerala" but get it right in your above comment: "The Surprisingly Ecumenical Inception of Latin Christianity in Kerala: A Brief Study". You cited that article to support the statement "The Anjoottikkar are generally associated with long‑established coastal fishing communities such as the Mukkuvar, Arayan, Valan and Dheevar groups, who formed a significant part of the early Roman Catholic population in southern Kerala." There's nothing in that source that says this. As such, I'm afraid that your changes were substantial disruptive insertions of unsourced material with erroneous citations. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:50, 18 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti:

Thanks for taking the time to review the sources in detail.

My intention is not to insert unsourced material but to improve the article with verifiable historical information. I’ll go back and re‑check each claim and source carefully. I’ll revise with accurate inline citations. PJohnTimes (talk) 08:58, 20 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti

From the page "Latin Church" : "It is also known as the Roman Church (Latin: Ecclesia Romana),[8][9] the Latin Catholic Church,[10][11] and in some contexts as the Roman Catholic Church (though this name can also refer to the Catholic Church as a whole).[12]"

It wouldn't hurt the authenticity of the article to include this information in the page in order to root out confusion regarding this matter. K# (talk) 16:35, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

@MagneticFume: Your comments seem a bit confused. Do you have a reliable source for your desired changes. Please also be aware that, as an account that had not edited for two years before suddenly joining this discussion (where disused similar accounts have done likewise), you are raising concerns regarding possible sock- or meatpuppetry. Please clarify what drew you to this discussion. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:38, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti I'm a Seminarian of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Quilon and hence couldn't be active for the past few years. Now that I'm officially a priest of the same diocese, the church requested me to edit such church related pages if possible.

Also all I asked is to draw some clarification on the terminologies and nothing else. If that makes you crash out and accuse me of sockpuppetry, maybe you would be acting with a personal agenda. You seem to have locked the page out preventing any further edits as if you have a personal interest in it. K# (talk) 17:46, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti Also the mother page Latin Church isn't a reliable enough source to quote from? K# (talk) 17:46, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

@MagneticFume: With respect, Catholic priests have a tendency to avoid making personal attacks as soon as someone raises a possible issue. It's certainly unusual for three accounts with very similar editing habits to spend months or years inactive before reemerging to back one another in a specific discussion. It's not conclusive proof of wrongdoing, but it's worth acknowledging. And no, a Wikipedia page is not a reliable source beyond establishing what Wikipedia considers the formal name of that particular church. See Wikipedia:Don't cite Wikipedia on Wikipedia. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:51, 26 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti

First of all, the issue of interest is not about a church but a community of people. The page is titled "Latin Catholics of Malabar" and not "Latin Church of Malabar". Hence it is an article about a religious and ethnic group, with distinct culture, traditions and social structure. You seem to have confused it with a church.

Furthermore, the topic is a matter of great confusion all over Kerala. Up until a few years ago, Roman Catholics in Kerala were considered to be the Syro Malabar Church, which is incorrect. Hence the government of kerala granted RC as their caste name. However recently this issue has been addressed and the community name of "Syro Malabar Roman Catholic" has been changed to "Syro Malabar Syrian Christians", at the same time "Latin Catholic" was officially changed to "Roman Catholic". This transition creates confusion about what is really meant by the Roman Catholic Church. As I proposed before, a suitable explanation on the topic would be apt to clear these doubts.

It is also worth noting that Roman Catholic is more correct in the modern sense as Latin is no longer the liturgical language of the church. After Vatican II, churches were given authority to practice liturgy in their regional languages. Hence, Catholicism is no longer Latin. This created the usage of the term "Roman Catholic" because it conveys the notion of being joined as a one unified global church without being separated on the basis of liturgical language.

Finally, with all due respect and appreciation to your contributions to Wikipedia which is evident from your about page, this rename request has been raised by community members from the Latin Church of Malabar region itself. The people this article describes are always the most qualified voices on what the article should be called. An editor with no apparent connection to this community or region opposing a rename that the community itself is requesting is, frankly, difficult to justify under Wikipedia's own guidelines on article ownership and neutral point of view. I am raising this in good faith and not as a challenge against your editorial experience, but I would ask you to reflect on whether your opposition is grounded in Wikipedia policy or personal preference. Your stand can be comparable to an editor with no connection to a Native American community opposing how that community's own page should be named, against the wishes of that community. Please reflect on these arguments and oppose unbiased, if you possess any counter arguments. K# (talk) 04:10, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

I'll keep it on the level with you: I'm thoroughly convinced you have not actually reviewed the relevant sources on this topic (including the ones cited in this discussion), nor do you have a comprehension of Wikipedia policy. The Latin Church is the name of the actual formal body that these people are a part of; it's also the dominant common name in reliable sourcing on this particular ethnic group (again, see the above cited sources). You have made an argument premised on no actual evidence (indeed, you seem confused about what Roman Catholic means). As for this: Your stand can be comparable to an editor with no connection to a Native American community opposing how that community's own page should be named, against the wishes of that community? Well... Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:26, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti Truly undesirable from an editor of your calibre, still confusing an ethnic group with the official title of the Church. I read you whole argument and gave you my counter arguments, expecting the same courtesy from your behalf.

The edit I originally proposed was to add a clarification regarding that Roman Catholic and Latin Catholic are interchangeable.

If you remain adamant, I'm forced to assume you have a biased obsession with this page. K# (talk) 04:36, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

I'm forced to assume you have a biased obsession with this page. I told you that you need a source. That's Wikipedia policy. Your original plan was to cite Wikipedia. I told you that was against policy. You’ve proceeded to accuse me of "crashing out" and then lied about being a priest (I checked, you're not). Please stop pinging me. Please stop accusing me of stuff. And please don't lie. ~ Pbritti (talk) 04:45, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti I'm obsessed with this page because I'm a member of this community. And for "sources" let me search for some. And you checked if I'm a priest? Where? Wikipedia? ^[1] K# (talk) 04:50, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti ^[2] another reference worth noting. K# (talk) 04:46, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

You can click on the link to the diocese's list of priests above. I'm aware of your real name, and I know you're not a priest. Since you lied about that, I'm fairly convinced you were not working in good faith at any point in this discussion. Please consider reviewing Wikipedia's Five Pillars before continuing your editing, as you seem to need additional guidance. Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti How obsessed are you to "find my real name" mate. When did I say I'm a "diocesan" priest? There are many priestly societies and congregations here, for your kind information. And what makes my genuine interactions not in "good faith". And I did some background research too about your overall wikipedia activity and it turns out you have been called out for biased edits many times in the past too. I'm currently collecting references to back this edit request, as soon I finish, I will be pushing an update. I don't want to engage in further debates until then. Cheers. K# (talk) 12:52, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@MagneticFume: You said you were diocesan priest here: I'm a Seminarian of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Quilon and hence couldn't be active for the past few years. Now that I'm officially a priest of the same diocese. You blatantly lied. Any attempt to "push an update" will result in a reversion, per WP:BRD. ~ Pbritti (talk) 13:32, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti I'm a Seminarian "from" the Roman Catholic Diocese of Quilon, that's what I meant, excuse the slight slip of grammer. Also "with appropriate references", I don't think there would be any reason to "revert", unless you are adamant on pushing your egoistic agendas, which I still can't understand. K# (talk) 13:38, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

Was it a grammatical error when you said Now that I'm officially a priest of the same diocese? You got caught lying. Just let it be. We're done here. ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:43, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

@Pbritti Yes I'm now a priest serving in a church belonging to the Diocese. How does that contradict what I said? Again, I'm not here to argue with here but have a meaningful discussion about the proposed move. K# (talk) K# (talk) 14:46, 27 March 2026 (UTC)

References

Talk:Latin Catholics of Malabar

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

Cleanup

Removing Malabar from the heading

Semi-protected edit request on 8 February 2024

St. Thomas latin Christian tharavadu

Narani

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2025

Requested move 18 March 2026

Discussion: Recent edits to Religion and Ritual section

Incorrectly stated that Syro Malabar Church members are the "Roman Catholics of Syrian Rite" when it should be "Eastern Catholics of Syrian Rite"

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