Talk:Medical doctor

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. WP:OTHEROPTIONS close. There's a lot of different titles being proposed other than the original, those being Medical doctor and Doctor. Doctor (medical) - the original proposal - has lukewarm reception, weak consensus to Medical doctor, and similar weak consensus to Doctor. Future RMs may be proposed when consensus changes. (non-admin closure) Yours truly, Stuffinwriting | talk | sign | contributions 00:55, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Physician → Doctor (medical)Doctor (medical) – The title "physician" fails WP:TITLE on two main reasons.

Reason 1: Fails WP:CRITERIA on Recognizability and Naturalness This is the main article for the profession most commonly known as "doctor" or "medical doctor" globally, yet it is titled "physician". Outside of the US/Canada, it is unnatural to refer to a medical practitioner as "physician" over "doctor", and even within US/Canada the vernacular prefers "doctor". Learners of English are exposed to the term "doctor" much earlier than "physician".

Reason 2: Fails WP:CRITERIA on Precision and fails WP:GLOBAL. The article itself acknowledges that there are significant regional variation of the meaning of "physician", to the point where the two terms ("physician" and "doctor") cannot simply be assumed to be synonymous.

For example, in Australia/New Zealand, only internal medicine specialists who are fellows of the RACP are called "physicians" unqualified. Other doctors, such as surgeons, general practitioners and anaesthetists, are never referred to as "physicians". The official catch-all term is "medical practitioner" according to the regulator, while "doctor" is the catch-all term in the vernacular. In Australia at least, using "physician" as a catch-all is akin to using "barrister" to refer to all lawyers: highly inaccurate.

The UK is similar; while the BMA does refer to physicians as "a general term for someone who practices medicine", it also conspicuously qualifies this as referring mostly to internal medicine specialists, who receive their training from the RCP, RCPE or RCPSG. Similarly to Aus/NZ, calling doctors in general "physicians" remains unnatural. The regulator also uses "doctor" as the catch-all term.

Conclusion: This page's title should be the best catch-all term for medical doctors. So why not just use "doctor"? The term "physician" significantly fails WP:TITLE criteria and is a prime example of why WP:GLOBAL exists. I note a previous move attempt on 8 May 2020 which was undiscussed, so I think it's fair game to launch a new move request with a discussion, as I anticipate some controversy.

I imagine some opposition to my proposal may come from editors who live in areas of the world where "physician" might be relatively synonymous with "doctor", and the mapping may feel natural. That's fine, but this proposal is to draw attention to the fact that there are many areas of the world (especially the non-US/Canada Anglosphere) where it's unnatural at best, and inaccurate at worst, to use "physician" as a catch-all for doctors. Wikipedia should strive for the most natural titling as per WP:TITLE, so we must factor in non-American/Canadian systems too.

If this move succeeds, I think it's fine for "physician" to redirect to this page still, and for the term to feature prominently in the first sentence and throughout the page. But the term's not fit for purpose as a title. LStravaganz (talk) 03:56, 5 April 2025 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans, Duke of Rivia 18:58, 12 April 2025 (UTC)

• Support I also think there’s a strong case this is the primary topic, and therefore the disambiguation is unnecessary. Rafts of Calm (talk) 12:01, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

  I also support medical doctor per later discussion. Rafts of Calm (talk) 09:49, 21 April 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose the initial proposal I believe "Doctor" as medical term is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and more universal. Since we already known as that for long-term significance, we should just move to Doctor without any disambiguator, move DAB page to Doctor (disambiguation), and create Doctor (medical) as a redirect. We should include DAB page at this RM. 2404:8000:1037:15F:90A0:3D3:1019:80B8 (talk) 14:34, 5 April 2025 (UTC)
• Leaning oppose, absent a much broader analysis of how medical doctors are delineated in other countries, and how the word "Doctor" is used. It is my understanding that in the UK, there is another popular meaning of that term. BD2412 T 21:28, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

• Respectfully I don't think that's the appropriate burden of proof. What is actually required is to show that Physician is an inferior article title compared to some variation of Doctor as per WP:TITLE and WP:GLOBAL, which I did in the nomination by identifying major Anglophone jurisdictions where it is simply wrong to use Physician to refer to all medical practitioners.

Furthermore, on the Doctor Who comment, if one were to say in the UK eg. "Go see the doctor" or "The doctor told me to do X", it's pretty obvious those relate to medical practitioners, not the fictional character. My proposed title Doctor (medical) also already disambiguates away Doctor Who. LStravaganz (talk) 03:37, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

• On this rationale, by the way, why not Medical doctor? It is a well-attested formulation. BD2412 T 21:29, 5 April 2025 (UTC)

• I'm personally less a fan of "medical doctor" as that's a tautology. The unqualified English common noun "doctor" in Anglophone countries almost universally and unambigously refers to medical practitioners. It'll be like saying "Gordon Ramsay is a culinary chef". If the concern is around "doctor" referring to doctorate holders, that'll only be a genuine concern if we frequently refer to eg. PhD physicists as "physics doctors" which we don't. LStravaganz (talk) 03:45, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

• Support page move either Doctor (medical) per nom or Medical doctor as BD2412 proposed. However i'm questioned whether "Doctor" in medical sense is a primary topic, because in WikiNav, there's weak evidence to see that. Outgoing views tended to prefer as Doctor (title), which disqualified the term of "Doctor" in medical term as a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. 103.111.102.118 (talk) 02:07, 6 April 2025 (UTC)
• Comment: There seems to be two substantively different debates here. Firstly, whether "physician" is an appropriate title, which is the point of the initial nomination. Secondly, whether "Doctor", "Doctor (medical)" or "Medical doctor" should replace it. Can I please propose that we restrict discussion to the former debate, and if the nomination succeeds, to have a second discussion about which form of "Doctor" we use as the new title? I would hate for the perfect to be the enemy of good, and have this nomination rejected because while consensus exists that "physician" is not fit for purpose, we can't decide on what to replace it with. LStravaganz (talk) 03:26, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

  I disagree with your two-step framing here, since it implies that everyone would either prefer "Physician" over "Doctor" and all its disambiguated alternatives, or prefer all variants of "Doctor" over "Physician". Imagine that there is an article currently at B, and 30% prefer A, 40% prefer B, and 30% prefer C. All A supporters prefer A > B > C, and all C supporters prefer C > B > A. If we were to use your approach, we would find a 60% "consensus" to move away from B and then be forced to choose between A and C.

  The only valid two-step framing is this: 1) Is this topic the primary topic of Doctor? 2a) If yes, then what is the best title: Physician, Doctor, or Medical doctor? Parenthetical disambiguation (Doctor (medical) and Doctor (medicine)) is not allowed if it is the primary topic of Doctor, but non-parenthetical disambiguation (Medical doctor) is allowed with Doctor being a primary redirect to it. 2b) If no, then what is the best title: Physician, Medical doctor, Doctor (medical), or Doctor (medicine)? Occupying the base title (Doctor) is not allowed as we have already determined that it is non-primary. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 22:58, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

  The two-step framing I propose is entirely valid, because the difference between various Doctor disambiguations is trivial, compared to the IMO much-greater issue which is the inaccuracy of Physician. By analogy, imagine if the main page for Cat were titled Dog, but a sensible title-change nom fails because people can't decide between Cat or Cat (domestic).

  Furthermore, judging by comments thus far, it seems everyone agrees that Physician is either strictly worse, or equivocal at best, to some disambiguation of Doctor. By that, I mean I have seen no WP:CRITERIA-based argument actually supporting the use of Physician over some verison of Doctor. So, I'm unconvinced that "A>B>C" or "C>B>A" are prevalent opinions; far more likely we have editors either "A>C>B" or "C>A>B", where "B" is the current article title. LStravaganz (talk) 23:52, 9 April 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose Doctor (medical) specifically as an unnecessary use of an adjective as a disambiguator, which should only be done as a last resort. There are plenty of alternatives like Medical doctor, Doctor (medicine), etc. At the moment I am neutral on whether any of these is superior to Physician or whether it could simply be the primary topic of Doctor. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 22:48, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

  To my knowledge there is no explicit recommendation against disambiguating adjectives in WP:NC(). LStravaganz (talk) 23:15, 7 April 2025 (UTC)

• Support Doctor as primary, per arguments. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 11:41, 8 April 2025 (UTC)
• Move to Doctor as PRIMARYTOPIC.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:05, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

  Since a move to doctor is a multi-move, I do not think it can be performed on the basis of this RM alone. Srnec (talk) 17:46, 14 April 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. The current title is perfectly natural and recognizable. In my experience, it is the norm in the humanities when 'doctor' would be ambiguous or unclear. "Physician, heal thyself" is in the King James Bible. Any failing of PRECISION or GLOBAL is not rectified by the proposed move, since many medical practicioners both historically and at present do not have doctoral degrees. Srnec (talk) 16:02, 14 April 2025 (UTC)
• Support move to Medical doctor. Strong oppose move to Doctor as the PhD and title usages are equally as notable. Steel1943 (talk) 17:18, 15 April 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose move to Doctor (medical) and Doctor, based on the grounds articulated above by BD2412, Srnec, and Steel1943. I am neutral on a move to Medical doctor, which was not actually proposed (and should be separately proposed and voted on). --Coolcaesar (talk) 16:16, 20 April 2025 (UTC)

• Comment Editors in general seem lukewarm on Doctor (medical) but are more supportive of Medical doctor. Oppose votes such as those from King of ♥ and Coolcaesar would likely become Neutral per their comments, which would mean the plurality of editors here would support a shift away from Physician to Medical doctor. Note also that a move to Medical doctor would negate Srnec's concern of ambiguity with doctorate holders (also stressing again that the common use of "doctor" has indisputably expanded beyond "doctorate holders"). Could a closure of this nomination authorise a move to Medical doctor directly (which I'm happy to support as the initial nominator), or do we need a separate proposal? LStravaganz (talk) 03:05, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
• Comment. Consider me lukewarm on both "doctor (medical)" and "medical doctor". The first suggestion is contrary to WP:NATURAL and the second seems made up, for lack of a better term. If this page is moved, it should be moved to plain old doctor. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 14:20, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
• Support move to Doctor as clear common name and primary topic. Academics with the title are generally not referred to as doctors, but as people with doctorates. -- Necrothesp (talk) 18:01, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
  • I'm noticing an apparent British/American split on this issue, and I suspect it's because of the much more drastic difference in size of the gigantic U.S. higher education sector and the sheer range between the top and bottom institutions. The higher education sector in the United States includes approximately 3,931 higher education institutions. There are several hundred institutions in the middle which are either mediocre or just plain terrible. In the United States, it is common for people who earned doctorates from second- and third-tier institutions to always insist on the "Dr." prefix regardless of whether they also hold the M.D. degree. People who earned doctorates from top-tier institutions are less likely to insist on "Dr.", because they are well aware that people who insist on that prefix are often revealing inferiority complexes. Plus the top-tier graduates tend to have other titles that are also very impressive, like "Professor" or "Secretary" (as in head of a government agency). Or it's enough to watch people stare in awe when they say, "I have a doctorate from Harvard", and they don't need to rub that in people's faces by saying "Call me Doctor". --Coolcaesar (talk) 03:20, 22 April 2025 (UTC)

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved to Medical doctor, among the consensus of the oppose and support !votes. Overall there is strong consensus opposing a move to Doctor, while there is also an equal split in favour, or otherwise willing to accept, a move to Medical doctor. Crucially, none of the opposers argued that the favoured title shouldn't be used, with only one participant explicitly supporting the current title; instead participants only opposed Doctor (per ambiguous), which didn't even gain traction in the first place. Thus due to the support for the alternative, lack of support for the current title, as well as lack of extrapolatable opposition, there is consensus to move to "Medical doctor". (closed by non-admin page mover) CNC (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2025 (UTC)

Physician → Doctor – The last discussion showed that there is no consensus for keeping the current article name, and that this is a case of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. I'm reviving the discussion here so that we can agree on a better title 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 12:09, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. The new title is fatally ambiguous. As noted in the discussion for the previous proposed move, the United States has approximately 3,931 institutions of higher education. In the United States, it is very common for holders of doctorates from second- and third-tier institutions to stubbornly insist on the "doctor" title (as in, "call me doctor"). They feel they earned the title by researching, drafting, and defending a dissertation. In American English, when the intended meaning of "doctor" is not already obvious from the context, speakers frequently have to stop and ask for clarification as to whether the person they are speaking to or about is a "medical doctor", while writers will usually qualify the term with "medical" or use "physician" instead to avoid ambiguity. It is less common for graduates of first-tier institutions to insist on "call me doctor", usually because they already have more impressive titles like "professor" or "secretary" (as in head of a government agency). --Coolcaesar (talk) 14:58, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

Oppose - gloriously fails WP:PRECISION. Would be open to Medical doctor or something of the like. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:05, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose, ambiguous. No objection to Medical doctor. I'll note however that "medical doctor" received little support in a 2017 RM which was closed as "Not moved". 162 etc. (talk) 16:10, 29 September 2025 (UTC)
• Comment - I have no problems with moving this to Medical doctor instead 𐩣𐩫𐩧𐩨 Abo Yemen (𓃵) 17:17, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

• Support, either to Doctor or failing that to Medical doctor. The nominator of the previous request raised significant concerns about the usage of "physician" to describe the subject of this article in various countries in the previous RM. I think that medical doctors are probably the primary topic for doctor and we could put a hatnote for doctor (title), but both that and medical doctor are better than leaving physician. Ladtrack (talk) 19:00, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose clearly ambiguous—blindlynx 20:01, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's not clear what problem the mover is trying to resolve. Zacwill (talk) 20:26, 29 September 2025 (UTC)
• Support – 'Doctor' may be ambiguous in theory, but so is 'physician'. In Britain, a 'physician' is what Americans call an internist, as this article so succinctly explains. The present title therefore suffers from Americo-centric WP:SYSTEMICBIAS. 'Doctor' is a superior title from the perspective of WP:COMMONALITY; no matter where one goes in the world, when one says the word doctor in common English speech, it will be understood as a 'medical doctor'. This is a clear case of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. With no offence to my academic colleagues, if one feels the need to beg that one be called 'doctor', that's quite indicative of the fact that the usage that one is proclaiming is alien to common speech! Yours, &c. RGloucester — ☎ 01:32, 30 September 2025 (UTC)

As an additional note, I am happy to support the proposed WP:NDESC title medical doctor as a compromise. Any measure to excise the current inaccuracy, which compromises the neutrality of this article, would have my support. Yours, &c. RGloucester — ☎ 01:05, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose since ... PhD earners are also doctors. Steel1943 (talk) 23:48, 1 October 2025 (UTC)

Comment - how about "medical practitioner"? I admit the present title is Americo-centric, but it's perfectly legal for a PhD holder to call himself/herself a "doctor"... TommyGundam (talk) 18:32, 2 October 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose but open to alternatives. While I think this may be the primary topic for Doctor, there is sufficient ambiguity and I cannot discount the dissenting arguments raised here and in the prior RM. I also cannot dismiss the concerns raised about international usage of physician. Per MOS:COMMONALITY, we should use the most universally recognized terminology where possible, regardless of which national variety of English the article is written in. Even in North American English varieties, doctor is more recognizable and natural than physician, and thus better aligns with article title WP:CRITERIA, and there has at least historically been some distinction between physicians and surgeons in the United States. In clinical settings dentists, podiatrists, veterinarians, and clinical psychologists use the Dr. title and may be referred to as the doctor in the United States. You will also encounter usage like podiatric physician. Specifying medical doctor resolves ambiguity for the most part, although it is not without problems. In some contexts, medical doctor may be used to distinguish those physicians with an MD degree from those with a DO degree in the United States. Unqualified and without context, doctor and physician are often interchangeable but there are plenty of caveats and exceptions. Doctor (medical) or Doctor (medicine) may actually be the best options. --MYCETEAE 🍄‍🟫—talk 22:30, 2 October 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current title is perfectly natural and recognizable. In my experience, it is the norm in the humanities when 'doctor' would be ambiguous or unclear. "Physician, heal thyself" is in the King James Bible. Any failing of PRECISION or GLOBAL is not rectified by the proposed move, since many medical practicioners both historically and at present do not have doctoral degrees. I do not believe this is the primary topic, other uses being too common and well known and the ambiguity of 'doctor' is universally known. Srnec (talk) 00:29, 3 October 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose per the ambiguity highlighted above. BD2412 T 03:45, 3 October 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose, there are many 'Doctors' who are not physicians, which is the commonsense definition of the main topic searched for when approaching this page. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:24, 4 October 2025 (UTC)