Talk:Microsoft Store

Survey

• Move to something that says "Microsoft Store". Nom.'s source is valid. I am withdrawing my previous objections. And I am downloading "Microsoft Store" too. It is available for Windows 1703 as well. I do not support moving to "Microsoft Store (app)" per MOS:STABILITY, because our de facto suffix is "(software)" not "(app)". —Codename Lisa (talk) 14:44, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose The WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of "Microsoft Store" is still the retail/tangible goods store. Until the most frequent reference is to the software store it is not appropriate to move Microsoft Store to Microsoft Store (retail). If anything this article should be moved to Microsoft Store (software). Windows does currently refer to the program as "Microsoft Store" but I don't think that it is enough to make it the primary topic at this point. —DIYeditor (talk) 07:57, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
  • @DIYeditor: Hello. You are perhaps aware that the claim of "primary topic" status needs an evidence. Can I see your evidence? —Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 08:25, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Google web search. Seems clear to me that a very recent change to the name of the software isn't going to override that. How many people have even noticed the change at this point? —DIYeditor (talk) 08:43, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
      • Doesn't the Google search snippet reflect Wikipedia? Anyway, I only supported the fact that "Windows Store" is no longer the suitable article name. FC's proposal was a course of action but whether it is the best course of action wasn't my immediate concern. —Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 10:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
        • I think the google results (or any other search results you try to get) reflect what people are looking for when they search for "Microsoft Store" which is what PRIMARYTOPIC directs us to reflect. The proposal includes two actions and you just said "Support" which would include those two actions. I think that is the immediate concern. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:13, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
          • While everyone's opinion is respectable for himself, we actually have policy. WP:NAMECHANGES says "Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced. If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." So, I am afraid your old Google search results do not have sufficient weight. FleetCommand (Speak your mind!) 07:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
            • That doesn't at all address this situation where there is a conflict in names. Clearly the above (from WP:OFFICIALNAMES) only applies to whether to continue referring to this as "Windows Store" or to move on to "Microsoft Store". I agree that the official name of the topic of this article is now "Microsoft Store" but that doesn't make it the PRIMARYTOPIC for that name. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• Move Microsoft Store → Microsoft Store (retail) and Windows Store → Microsoft Store (digital distribution)Microsoft Store (digital distribution), or merge the two articles into a WP:broad concept article that covers both online and brick-and-mortar stores. The idea that either could be considered the primary topic over the other without any context is ludicrous. Apple Store is about a retail chain, and many people will think that "Microsoft Store" is the same. See Apple Store (disambiguation). Now, maybe this could fly if they called it the Microsoft App Store; that would be unambiguous. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:01, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Or move Windows Store → Microsoft Store (app)Microsoft Store (app). When I go to the the app's entry on my Windows 7 machine, I see the message: "This app does not work on your device." – wbm1058 (talk) 14:10, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
    • The Microsoft Store and Universal Windows Platform apps are only available on Windows 8, 8.1 and 10 Smithr32 (talk) 22:37, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
• Move. Microsoft is creating a singular platform called the Microsoft store that can be accessed via the Windows 10 & Xbox Store app, the web] but also the retail stores. The Microsoft store allows users to purchase both applications and hardware. See Smithr32 (talk) 22:33, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
  • @Smithr32: If "Microsoft Store" includes both how can you support a proposal to replace the tangible goods/retail store article with this one and relocate that article to Microsoft Store (retail)? You don't give any actual argument in favor of the above proposal. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:03, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Move it is then Smithr32 (talk) 15:47, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
• Note to closer I don't think a "Support" !vote that doesn't explain or express a reason for replacing the retail store article with this one can be given equal weight since this proposal is not just to rename this article but to move the other. An opinion that something needs to be done is note equivalent to support for this specific proposal. Just my opinion of course. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:13, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Please, newcomer! We know out jobs. FleetCommand (Speak your mind!) 07:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
    • Pretty much anyone can close a move request so it seems worth pointing out what I see as a pitfall here. Your request didn't include justifications for both actions and I have similar concerns about support votes. "The debate is not a vote; please do not make recommendations on the course of action to be taken that are not sustained by arguments." —DIYeditor (talk) 23:26, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
      • Hi. Look, I don't mind you condescending behavior at all, but if your aggressiveness result in a "no consensus" verdict, I will have no choice but to revert all mentions of "Microsoft Store" in the article to "Windows Store". (I have edited my recommendation to help prevent this course of action.) Unlike me, some admins or movers do get offended by an editor with no more than 1802 edits telling them what to do and what not to do. (And I don't blame them.) So, please bear the WP:BOOMERANG in mind. —Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 08:18, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
        • Perhaps refer to WP:BITE. I also see you have completely substantially changed your comment after it had been responded to, contrary to WP:REDACT. "Any deleted text should be marked with <s>...</s> or <del>...</del>, which renders in most browsers as struck-through text, e.g., deleted." I didn't tell any possible closer (who could be any editor at all not just an admin) what to do, I pointed out a serious problem with the way this proposal is being presented and responded to. Your updated !vote addresses this concern so we are getting somewhere. —DIYeditor (talk) 08:57, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
• Move to Microsoft Store (digital), but oppose move of Microsoft Store. The physical store is likely the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC at the moment for that title. (Perhaps in a year or so, if the digital store stays at the new name, it MIGHT be appropriate to move it to Microsoft Store (retail) and move the digital one to Microsoft Store, but it's too soon to say.) SnowFire (talk) 18:40, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I support this title too, as more concise and sufficient to disambiguate. I agree that this move should take priority over moving the physical store, so have no objection to holding off on moving the brick-and-mortar off primary topic; on the other hand I also can support moving it now and making this a disambiguation. What I'm opposed to is immediately making the digital platform the primary topic; the idea that WP:primary topics can switch places with each other overnight is kind of counter to the concept of what a primary topic is. – wbm1058 (talk) 20:35, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose original request. I feel something like Microsoft Store (app) is the better destination. -- Netoholic @ 07:44, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose WP:MERGE the two articles. They are both small enough and the retail article already has a "digital distribution" section. History can include both, and how you can now purchase devices through the Store. WikIan -(talk) 05:28, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Merging does solve some of the problems here. It seems as if Microsoft intends for these to be facets of the same thing. —DIYeditor (talk) 06:42, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
• Merge per above rationales, which covered everything I would have said (most expecially that the retail article already has section for digital distro – what's happened here is a way-premature WP:SUMMARY split).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  07:53, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose merge and probably oppose move too - these are completely different things. The Windows Store is an app store, a virtual platform for downloading apps and other software. The Microsoft Store is a bricks and mortar concept, with flagship stores in prime locations such as central London. This would be like merging iTunes Store and Apple Store, which are similarly very different things. As for the move request, I think we're best leaving that where it is too. The actual "official name", if there is one, is probably just "Store", so disambiguating it with Windows (another common name for it) seems to be fine, and keeps both titles natural.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:04, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
  • This is almost like arguing that the official name of Microsoft Office is just "Office" so it would be as fitting to title its article "Windows Office". The app store is not entirely distinct from the Microsoft Store if we are to judge from Microsoft Store Online, which sells both the apps and hardware. Clearly the official name of Microsoft Store Online is not "Store Online" - it's Microsoft Store, Online. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:10, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
  • @Amakuru: You may want to do a bit of research first. One, it was never "Store", it was always Windows Store. Secondly, it was just rebranded to Microsoft Store and now sells hardware like the online store does. Third, the retail store doesn't have apps, but you can request service from the online Microsoft Store and bring your device to the retail Microsoft Store to get it serviced. WikIan -(talk) 07:31, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
• Move to Microsoft Store (online). It would be more appropriate to disambiguate with "(online)" rather than "(software)" given it's really an online store platform accessible via the web and not just through the app that comes with Windows. Keep Microsoft Store as is for now as it's too early to say whether it is no longer the primary topic. It may be that the two pages should be merged or the primary topic swapped over in the future once the nature of the relationship between the platforms becomes more apparent. Kb.au (talk) 16:15, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

To simplify this and avoid continued revision of and replies to !votes, and the possibility of a finding of "no consensus", I think these issues might be best fleshed out through a discussion. So far we have 3 different possibilities for this article other than Microsoft Store: Microsoft Store (app), Microsoft Store (software) and Microsoft Store (digital), a suggestion that the two articles be merged, the original proposal of moving the retail store article, and one of moving both articles. These are a lot of different options to sort through and it would be easier for me personally if they could be narrowed down. I would like to update my !vote to support a specific solution rather than just oppose the original proposed move because clearly something needs to be done here. Right now I am leaning toward supporting a move of this article to Microsoft Store (digital) because (app) doesn't sound encyclopedic and (software) leaves possible ambiguity as to whether it is a software-based store or store that sells software. Also there is a website version of the store so it's not just a Windows program. Opinions? —DIYeditor (talk) 09:46, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi. You wrote "[...] and (software) leaves possible confusion as to whether it is a software-based store or store that sells software."

1. Since both are correct assumptions, why do you bother? The reader can assume whichever, or both.
2. The prevalence of "(software)" tag in Wikipedia means anyone who has been here knows that "[Name] (software)" means the subject of the article is a computer program called [Name]. Hence "Microsoft Store (software)" communicates that it is an app called "Microsoft Store" — at least to some audience.
3. People who are intent on getting confused, get confused anyway, no matter what you. They get confused from "(digital)" because they don't know whether it is a digital store, or whether the store sells digital goods. Nothing is ignorant-proof or fool-proof.

Let people read the article; if you try to outdo yourself with parenthetical suffixes, you end up like Microsoft: It is a company known for constant and insessant product name changing and having no stable naming schemes. Every time they chose one weird deviant name for their Windows versions, they rationalized their actions with such nonsense as "market appeal" and "contextual meaning". Likewise, if you end up overdoing yourself, you will end up with an encyclopedia with confusing parenthetical suffixes and no pattern in them.

Best regards,
Codename Lisa (talk) 10:06, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Good points. The problem I saw with the ambiguity is that the retail/tangible goods store also sells software so it potentially creates an inaccurate distinction. But by the same token the software sold by the "other" Microsoft Store (particularly the "Online" aspect) is also digital distribution, aside from the portion of Xbox games that are on disc. So really both "digital" and "software" create false distinctions from the other Microsoft Store, depending on how interpreted, and perhaps in this case it would be best as you say to use "software", meaning that is a piece of software, for consistency in Wikipedia titles. I agree that this is typical of Microsoft's poor marketing choices but maybe they intend for them both (or all three) to be aspects of the same store, possibly calling for a single combined article. To me this raises the possibility that for clarity the three aspects should be Microsoft Store (software), Microsoft Store (online), and Microsoft Store (retail) with Microsoft Store being only a disambiguation page. While I don't think this is entirely in keeping with PRIMARYTOPIC (which I do think is the retail store), it is a clean solution logically and prevents the reader from arriving at the wrong place. However in that scenario where does the web page for the app store fit - is it part of (online) or (software)? This is why I think some discussion is in order, I could really go along with several solutions at this point. —DIYeditor (talk) 10:47, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

We simply don't have sufficient material for three articles. Microsoft Store (software) is fine with me. Also Codename Lisa, the word for the state you described is "incongruity". If we overthink the suffix, we end up having an incongruous Wikipedia. FleetCommand (Speak your mind!) 14:02, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Microsoft Store (software) doesn't account for the fact that the apps are also distributed via a web site which doesn't meet the normal use of "software". It's a "digital distribution platform" per the current article but the article as written does not describe the other Microsoft Store digital distribution platform (for Windows, Office, Xbox games, etc.) so clearly (digital) wouldn't work either. This article as written could be something like Microsoft Store (apps) since it contains material relevant to apps on both the software-based store and web site, but not to "Microsoft Store" otherwise. Or it could be titled Microsoft Store (digital distribution) and expanded to include the Xbox games. Seems like this conflict needs to be resolved before there can be a clear choice of titles. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:14, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

Definitely overthinking it. Don't! Go with "(software)". —Codename Lisa (talk) 06:45, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Sorry, I glanced past FleetCommand's advice not to overthink it since it appeared to be addressed to you. That makes sense, I'm a fan of consistency in titles. Perhaps the title being 100% logically correct is not that important. Unfortunately with the !votes going so many different directions it looks like reaching consensus may be messy. —DIYeditor (talk) 05:03, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi. Well, this is embarassing. I noticed a Bot removing the move discussion notice. By mistake, I assumed that a page mover or admin had moved the page. Sure enough, the page had been moved to Microsoft Store (application). Well, I was wrong. An ordinary user had moved it and that user reverted his/her own action. I believe everyone knows the rest of the story. —Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 06:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm really sorry, I didn't see the "don't move page" notice when I moved it. I have made it back to the way it was so it should be all good now. User 261115 (talk) 06:17, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.