Talk:Tired light
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Early mature Quasar Contradicts the big bang theory
Wikipedia should allow published alternative explanations for the redshift, without expanding space. The big bang theory is contradicted by observations. see link. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/331980/title/Most_distant_quasar_raises_questions 71.98.132.136 (talk) 14:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
- The link does not say that the big bang theory is contradicted by this observation. Nor does this link have any relevance whatsoever for tired light theories. 140.252.83.241 (talk) 09:49, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
- The article clearly contradicts the big bang, by presenting a Quasar older than the big bang. 71.98.135.144 (talk) 12:06, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Edit request
Too bad Wikipedia censors published articles
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Heaven forbid that the astronomy students at Columbia University could discover those five articles that refute the big bang theory. The professors at Columbia would not like that now would they ? Better be sure the five articles never get into Wikipedia anywhere. 12.184.176.57 (talk) 21:32, 24 June 2011 (UTC) |
Add a new section 'Recently Proposed Redshift Models'
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A new section should be added to the article under the title 'Recently Proposed Redshift Models' where these five referenced articles should be cited, the authors being all Ph.D.'s in Physics: 1) Mamas, D.L.; http://link.aip.org/link/?PHESEM/23/326/1 2) Zaninetti, L.; http://link.aip.org/link/?PHESEM/23/298/1 3) Masreliez C. J.; Scale Expanding Cosmos Theory I – An Introduction, Apeiron April (2004) 4) Masreliez C. Johan (2005), pretitle=print pages 13-20 "A Cosmological Explanation to the Pioneer Anomaly", Astrophysics & Space Science 299, (1): 83-108, doi:10.1007/s10509-005-4321-6, http://www.estfound.org/downloads/pioneer_paper.pdf pretitle=print pages 13-20 5) Masreliez C. Johan (1999), "The Scale Expanding Cosmos", Astrophysics and Space Science 266 (3): 399-400, doi:10.1023/A:1002050702708 This will add some neutral balance to the article. 71.98.133.122 (talk) 03:42, 22 June 2011 (UTC) Apparently, the banned editor is User:Licorne. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:36, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Nuujinn and other administrators should be aware of pertinent research on the IP-issue at stake and take neccessary steps instead of harassing an innocent victim. 77.219.176.32 (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
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Any pertinent papers to be added or deleted?
I have not looked at this article for a long time, but I notice traces of debates with unreasonable (not in line with the rules) requests to insert or remove references to articles, and new editors. I guess that this is such a small topic that most relevant papers (or one per author) can be mentioned. To those who were involved recently, are there any notable papers about "tired light" concepts that are not referred to, or, inversely, unnoticed papers that are still referred to? Harald88 (talk) 13:55, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
- Just because few people read it doesn't mean it is okay to turn it into a rubbish dump of crankery. There's a couple by Masreliez which have been published which use the words 'tired light' but describes a metric expansion of space as far as I can see except they phrase it to say the space doesn't expand - things in it shrink, and uses it to explain the Pioneer anomaly which has been pretty much fully explained anyway. Dmcq (talk) 07:24, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Turning it into a rubbish dump or into a propaganda piece are both forbidden, for the same reason. So thanks, I'll take a look. Harald88 (talk) 12:31, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
- I now had a quick look at those papers, and one of them is cited by someone else. I don't think that that warrants a discussion of his ideas. Nevertheless, I recall that there were other alternative hypothesis that also were called tired light. Together that bunch of alternatives is just notable. So, it will be appropriate to add a short section, for example "Alternative tired light hypotheses" in which passing mention is made of those attempts that so far had little impact. Harald88 (talk) 20:21, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please workshop it in talk if you think you can assemble something that will pass the muster. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes Harald, there should be a short section on published alternative models. The article already says in the very last sentence that some published alternative models do exist, so show them in a section. Why should we hide them? 71.98.129.155 (talk) 17:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- OK I'll try but not sure if I can find the time in the coming two weeks...
- But I now notice in the last section "fringe researchers" - what the hell are that?? I work in research and it's not a term used by scientists, as it sounds just like racist or name-calling. That's inappropriate for an encyclopedia.
- PS. I now checked who one of those "fringe scientists" was: a teacher of the Astrophysics Department of the School of Physics, University of Sydney! So it's not merely name-calling, but even misleading. The POV of the last section is put on in such a thick layer that it just drips off. Harald88 (talk) 11:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- See fringe science. I'm afraid I get the impression some of the stuff in areas related to here may by a branch of creationists who have a thing against the theory of Relativity because they think it inspires moral relativism, that would be pseudoscience. We should just go by the peer reviews so the problem is mostly not our business though of course if it does seem nutty we should check it really is a good source. Dmcq (talk) 11:40, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes Harald, there should be a short section on published alternative models. The article already says in the very last sentence that some published alternative models do exist, so show them in a section. Why should we hide them? 71.98.129.155 (talk) 17:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please workshop it in talk if you think you can assemble something that will pass the muster. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 16:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
I think Harald88 has a point. We use the terms fringe science in our discussions, and I think it's a appropriate here, but barring a reliable source using the same term, I think it best we avoid using the term in the article. I've recast the last paragraph, please double check it to make sure I haven't introduced errors. I think that last clause should be deleted unless we a source for it, so I tagged it. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:56, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- They seem very reasonable. No need to stick in a fringe qualifier unnecessarily. Saying something is fringe really needs a citation saying something like that. Dmcq (talk) 11:58, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
Tired light is absolutely fringe science at this point, and not considered credible by any but a tiny number of physicists and astronomers. Here's a citation from ScienceNOW in 2001 to that effect:
Measurements of the cosmic microwave background put the theory firmly on the fringe of physics 30 years ago; still, scientists sought more direct proofs of the expansion of the cosmos.
There's also a nice quote from Ned Wright at the end of the article. I've reverted the recent changes, but not added the article, as I'm not sure where best to work it in. - Parejkoj (talk) 18:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Good find, that's exactly the kind of secondary source we need. I'll see about working it in later once I've had a chance to read the article, if you don't beat me to it. --Nuujinn (talk) 19:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Fantastic. I added the quote to the end of the article in place of the nebulous "all but absent" line and referenced it in the intro as a source for the fact that the idea is lately consigned to the fringes. 128.59.169.46 (talk) 15:18, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think in the lead though it is enough just to say it hasn't been supported by observational evidence without labouring the point that it is fringe now. The fringe citation is fine in the paragraph in the main article about where it all is now. Dmcq (talk) 17:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- As I already made clear, "fringe scientist" isn't a proper nor a neutral descriptor - "fringe scientist" doesn't exist in serious literature (no, it does not have the same meaning as "fringe science"!). I'll correct it to "fringe physics", or better, as now a whole sentence about the "fringe physics" qualifier has been added, to "tired light models" . Harald88 (talk) 18:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Misleading, apparently erroneous last section
I checked up on the last referenced claim of the last section. To my astonishment I found a follow-up article by the same author (as it seems, with an improved theory) in a high quality physics journal, that itself was again referenced (according to Web Of Knowledge) in 8 articles of which I copy some titles that in turn have been cited hereunder. Evidently the claim of that section is not supported by the facts. Harald88 (talk) 12:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- 1. Title: The cosmic age crisis and the Hubble constant in a non-expanding universe
Author(s): Sorrell Wilfred H. Source: ASTROPHYSICS AND SPACE SCIENCE Volume: 317 Issue: 1-2 Pages: 45-58 DOI: 10.1007/s10509-008-9853-0 Published: SEP 2008 Times Cited: 3 (from All Databases)
- 3. Title: Curvature pressure in a cosmology with a tired-light redshift
Author(s): Crawford DF Source: AUSTRALIAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICS Volume: 52 Issue: 4 Pages: 753-777 Published: 1999 Times Cited: 2 (from All Databases)
- 4. Title: THE QUASAR DISTRIBUTION IN A STATIC UNIVERSE
Author(s): CRAWFORD DF Source: ASTROPHYSICAL JOURNAL Volume: 441 Issue: 2 Pages: 488-493 DOI: 10.1086/175375 Part: Part 1 Published: MAR 10 1995 Times Cited: 4 (from All Databases)
- 6. Title: A STATIC STABLE UNIVERSE
Author(s): CRAWFORD DF Source: ASTROPHYSICAL JOURNAL Volume: 410 Issue: 2 Pages: 488-492 DOI: 10.1086/172765 Part: Part 1 Published: JUN 20 1993 Times Cited: 6 (from All Databases)
- 7. Title: A NEW GRAVITATIONAL INTERACTION OF COSMOLOGICAL IMPORTANCE
Author(s): CRAWFORD DF Source: ASTROPHYSICAL JOURNAL Volume: 377 Issue: 1 Pages: 1-6 DOI: 10.1086/170330 Part: Part 1 Published: AUG 10 1991 Times Cited: 6 (from All Databases)
- Sorry, which paper exactly are you referring to and which claim exactly are you saying is refuted? Dmcq (talk) 16:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think that Harald88 is trying to say that the refutation of Crawford's theory in Nature was subject to a later rebuttal. But Crawford's attempt to rebut Beckers and Cram was not published in Nature, and as far as I can tell that's the last time that Nature ever entertained a tired light notion. Interestingly, Charles Seife, it seems, referenced a "one-two punch" that essentially removed Crawford and the rest of the tired light fans from the mainstream journals circa 2001. Crawford hasn't had a paper published in a normal astrophysics journal since 1995 and it doesn't look like the others have been successful in getting any paper published during the 2000s in anything but AP&SS which changed its editorial policy in 2008 to avoid a lot of fringe physics. Now they're really struggling for recognition. See, for example, Crawford's foray into the way-out-there Journal of Cosmology: . 128.59.169.46 (talk) 15:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- No, that's not at all what I meant. The last section suggests (at least, it gives that impression to me!) that apart of a theory by Crawford that was rebutted in 1979, practically no alternative theory has been published in serious journals; and certainly no newer, corrected model by Crawford. Harald88 (talk) 18:22, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think that Harald88 is trying to say that the refutation of Crawford's theory in Nature was subject to a later rebuttal. But Crawford's attempt to rebut Beckers and Cram was not published in Nature, and as far as I can tell that's the last time that Nature ever entertained a tired light notion. Interestingly, Charles Seife, it seems, referenced a "one-two punch" that essentially removed Crawford and the rest of the tired light fans from the mainstream journals circa 2001. Crawford hasn't had a paper published in a normal astrophysics journal since 1995 and it doesn't look like the others have been successful in getting any paper published during the 2000s in anything but AP&SS which changed its editorial policy in 2008 to avoid a lot of fringe physics. Now they're really struggling for recognition. See, for example, Crawford's foray into the way-out-there Journal of Cosmology: . 128.59.169.46 (talk) 15:37, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
There are no serious astronomy journals today, they are all fairy tales who believe in the big bang, it's their Santa Claus. 71.98.137.180 (talk) 19:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sentient and self-aware narratives? Meta-mythologies? This is quite the post-modern novel under construction here. 77.103.132.143 (talk) 10:17, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
Last Section leaves one hanging
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The last section ends by saying tired light models are all but absent from the literature, which leaves one asking for some references to those models, at the very least. 71.98.128.187 (talk) 02:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Seife should not be quoted in the article, he is a layman. 71.98.132.103 (talk) 13:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
71.98.XXX.XXX looks like the same banned user that was causing trouble earlier this year. Engaging with him/her is not productive. - Parejkoj (talk) 03:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
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ancient galaxies Contradict the big bang theory
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Oh my, how embarrassing ! Ancient galaxies contradict the big bang theory. http://www.eso.org/public/news/eso1143/ Ancient quasars also contradict the big bang theory. http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/331980/title/Most_distant_quasar_raises_questions So when will the big bang nuts give it up ? The big bang is just a fairy tale, just like Santa Claus. It's high time to look closely at alternative explanations for the redshift. 71.98.130.72 (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
The ancient galaxies and quasars in those two articles contain heavy elements, which contradicts the big bang, because according to the big bang only hydrogen and helium existed at that early time. Heavier elements require billions of years and indicate that those galaxies and quasars are therefore billions of years older than the big bang, which is a blatant contradiction of the big bang theory. Tired light is the only possible alternative, as Hubble admitted himself. So Wikipedia should not be ignoring published tired light models, and mention them in the article. 71.98.136.237 (talk) 17:16, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
There should be NO heavy elements at the beginning of the big bang, NONE, but there are now observed early galaxies and quasars that do have heavy elements which fundamentally contradicts the big bang. Edwin Hubble said that with no big bang then there MUST be a tired light explanation for the cosmological redshift. So wikipedia should not ignore them but include published tired light models. 71.98.135.146 (talk) 02:57, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
As I said above, User:71.XX.XX.XX is a previously banned user with a history of trolling this, and other, cosmology articles. Engaging with him/her is entirely non-productive. - Parejkoj (talk) 16:45, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
A new section should be added to the article under the title 'Recently Proposed Redshift Models' where these five referenced articles should be cited, the authors being all Ph.D.'s in Physics: 1) Masreliez C. J.; Scale Expanding Cosmos Theory I – An Introduction, Apeiron April (2004) http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V11NO3PDF/V11N2MAS.pdf 2) Masreliez C. Johan (1999), "The Scale Expanding Cosmos", Astrophysics and Space Science 266 (3): 399-447. http://www.estfound.org/planets2.htm 3) Masreliez C. Johan (2005), preprint http://www.estfound.org/downloads/pioneer_paper.pdf "A Cosmological Explanation to the Pioneer Anomaly", Astrophysics & Space Science 299, (1): 83-108. 4) Zaninetti, L.; http://link.aip.org/link/?PHESEM/23/298/1 5) Mamas, D.L.; http://link.aip.org/link/?PHESEM/23/326/1 This will add some neutral balance to the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.133.88 (talk) 14:33, 13 November 2011 (UTC) Banned user warning: 71.xx.xx.xx is a formerly banned user who trolls cosmology articles. See the collapsed sections above (where this request to include papers by Masreliez was posted almost verbatim), nearly all of the recent archive, and Licorne's Sockpuppet investigation archive. Engaging with him/her is useless. - Parejkoj (talk) 15:32, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
6) LaViolette P. A., 1986. Is the universe really expanding? Astrophysical Journal, Part 1, Vol. 301, p. 544-553. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.133.88 (talk) 04:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
7) Accardi, L. et al, Physics Letters A 209, A third hypothesis on the origin of the redshift: application to the Pioneer 6 data, p.277-284 (1995) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0375960195008683 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.133.88 (talk) 04:44, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
The article is wrong to say 'in speculative journals' because Accardi is published in mainstream journal 'Physics Letters A' and his article must therefore be included as a reference here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.133.88 (talk) 13:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC) |
photon aging
I just reverted an addition to the lede labeling tired light a synonym to photon aging after taking a quick look at google. It doesn't seem like they are exact equivalents, but I could well be wrong, so I'm bringing it up here. --Nuujinn (talk) 11:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
- I suppose if it is somewhat similar it could be dealt with here too and just have tired light and photon ageing to not say they are the same. It hardly seems worthwhile to have another article so perhaps include but distinguish? Just had a look and couldn't make out anything notable myself to form an opinion from. Dmcq (talk) 11:54, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
- If this is a concept that is discussed at all anywhere, I cannot find it. The one obscure German-language reference was to a book about wild extensions to quantum mechanics. Checking the formal literature, I find absolutely no mention of the term. 128.59.169.46 (talk) 19:23, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
Misplaced reference or missing body text
Ref 11 is to the Goldhaber paper on time-stretch parameterization of supernovae but is linked to the section of text on the Tolman Test which is entirely different. Can someone add some text explaining the Goldhaber result (the curves are stretched because the SN gets farther away during the outburst or equivalently is time dilated) and perhaps also link this paper which provides the same evidence but using quasars: http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.5191 George Dishman (talk) 21:47, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
New Alternative-Explanations Seem to Succeed In Satisfying Two Of the Criteria
In the main article the criteria that: any "tired light" mechanism must solve some basic problems, in that the observed redshift must:(i)admit the same measurement in any wavelength-band; not exhibit blurring, follow the detailed Hubble relation observed with supernova data (see accelerating universe), and explain associated time dilation of cosmologically distant events.
A paper recently published in Adv. Studies Theor. Phys., Vol. 7, 2013, no. 18, 867, titled: "Four Alternative Possibilities that the Universe May not be Expanding" by Hasmukh K. Tank, explains that: " Alternative interpretations of cosmological red-shift are generally rejected on the ground that ‘tired-light-interpretations’ are inconsistent with the observations of time-dilation of super-nova-light-curves; but those curves are time-domain-representations of amplitude of light. These curves can be Fourier-transformed into wave-number-domain, and it is this 'band of waves'that propagates in inter-galactic-space, and reaches us after millions of years. These Fourier-transformed-components, being electromagnetic-waves, get red-shifted by any mechanism that can cause spectral-shift. Thus, time-dilation of super-nova light-curves is not different from red-shift of light due to any mechanism. With this explanation,this letter presents five new possible-mechanisms for the ‘cosmological red-shift’ 2. In the conclusion we find an explanation for the recently-observed non-linearity as follows: "Interesting difference between the standard Doppler-shift-interpretation and the proposed new one here, of branching-out of input-energy into gravitational and EM-waves, is: that after every unit-distance, say one light-year, the red-shifted-frequency f becomes the new input-frequency f0 for the next unit-distance; making the red-shift-distance-curve non-linear, as observed by Perlmutter and Riess; like the telescopic-railway-fare, or like the reducing piano-frequency which gets divided by 1.104 with every key. As soon as ‘cosmological-red-shift' gets understood as a propagation-property of light then ‘gravity’ can be understood as due to ‘cosmological-red-shift-effect’ on the photons exchanged between the particles. Therefore, it will be interesting for the experts to consider these possibilities in detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.201.103.145 (talk) 09:56, 23 September 2013 (UTC) 123.201.103.145 (talk) 10:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Revert banned user
Banned User:Licorne posting as 96.228.244.95 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is inserting WP:FRINGE-cruft by Dean Mamas into this article (among others). Per WP:DENY, I recommend reverting this diff: .
jps (talk) 18:47, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
Possible fringe theory
I had reverted this edit by User:Tiredlight as being particularly fringe, even for a highly-theoretical article such as this one. It has subsequently restored by an IP editor (presumably the original contributor while logged out). I won't remove it again, but did believe it was worth noting here so that others with more knowledge and expertise about this topic can evaluate whether this information belongs in the article, the journal cited does meet WP:RS, etc. --Kinu t/c 17:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
- Does not seem fringe. One argument to support that it is fringe? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.14.211.124 (talk) 15:19, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
You mean "unofficial"?
Opening section.
I commend the author for taking the time to create this entry. My only gripe is that the opening section is weak in explaining why Tired Light was rejected, then it becomes a treasure hunt to locate the reasons in the body of the article. The idea that scattering by gases/dust would change the colour of the distant light also makes no sense. There was a notion of tired light which held that it was a cosmological thing, where the light loses energy simply by traversing many light years of empty space. Hard to find minds to check out a failed theory, but Tired Light was pretty good, and needs a stronger refutation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.147.126.253 (talk) 02:21, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
- Fair critique, but it is unfortunately contaminated by present argumentation. When it was first proposed, it was a serious proposal which could have been "new physics" inasmuch as expansion itself was "new physics". The refutation of tired light came with a look at certain auxiliary effects which are natural results of the expansion of the universe but would have to be re-explained if tired light were truth, thus Occam's Razor cuts away the epicycles, as it were. Yes, that's the story in the mainstream literature. However, the fringe literature has firmly taken over the idea at this point and the more common explanations are those which invoke scattering or known physics to achieve the same effect (presumably hoping to overthrow redshift-distance relationships as being due to GR). That's the current position and it's hard to reconcile the two different approaches except that they result in the same phenomenology. A detailed explanation of this really does require digging further, so I don't see an easy way to deal with this in the intro. jps (talk) 17:15, 22 October 2017 (UTC)