Talk:Warren G. Harding

An editor wholesale removed Warren Harding's Masonic membership, which appears elsewhere on Wikipedia and is very well sourced. Also included some speculation about the particular path of his membership, is cited in a RS, and connected to other well-sourced claims on this page.

Opening up a talk page here so we can hash out the details, instead of engaging in mass reversions. Going to also tag @Blueboar who has done some great work on the List of Presidents who are Freemasons page. Jjazz76 (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I do not see that the Tester source, on which the added text ultimately relies, is a high-quality reliable source. Mr. Tester's qualifications are unknown. Here are some of the mistakes he makes. some of which impact the added text.

1. Ohio was not solidly Democratic, it elected a Republican governor and Republican senators and voted for the Republican presidential candidate in most years, though less frequently in the 1910s. Certainly in 1901, when Harding was blackballed, Ohio had not elected a Democratic senator, governor or voted for the Democratic presidential candidate in over a decade.

2. Harding was asked to speak at the RNC in 1912, not 1912.

3. Harding never resigned from the lieutenant governorship.

I would have no objection to the underlying sources on which this is based being considered if they are themselves reliable. But Tester isn't a WP:RS and this is a Featured Article, requiring per WP:WIAFA, high quality sources. Wehwalt (talk) 21:10, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

And I don't question he was a mason, though how much about that we really need is another question. But quality sourcing is a must and a paper by someone who gives no qualifications and a foreign newspaper based on it are not good enough. I'm sure better can be found.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:14, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I agreed the Tester source is perhaps more debatable. But let's start with the other one, which you also removed.

https://jl1.org/lodge/index.php/presidents-that-were-brother-masons/

During this period, Hard became a Freemason and took the first degree on June 28, 1901.^[1] However because of personal antagonism in the lodge, rather unusually, he did not become a Master Mason until 1920 after which he had already secured the nomination for President of the United States.^[1]

The source supports the claim and given that the information jives with everything we know about out US President Masons, I'd rate it as a reliable source. Any issues with these two sentences or that source @Wehwalt? Jjazz76 (talk) 22:12, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

There are numerous reliable sources that can be used to support Harding’s membership as a Freemason. Pick one and add the information back if this is seen as being important. Blueboar (talk) 22:20, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Unfortunately the other editor has reverted me twice on Harding's Masonic membership @Blueboar so someone else is going to need to do it. Jjazz76 (talk) 22:22, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I will look into it. Editing from my phone right now… which makes linking sources difficult. Blueboar (talk) Blueboar (talk) 22:45, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Great thanks! Jjazz76 (talk) 23:16, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I see at least two books used as sources at on the Tester article on presidents and Freemasonry. Can anyone locate one of those? Wehwalt (talk) 23:35, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

By the way, both in the reverted edit and just above in your proposed edit, you refer to "Harding" as "Hard". I would suggest modifying that. Also, in the proposed text, I don't see "rather unusually" supported in the text you provide. And the source says he was initiated in Masonry in 1901, but you propose text that says he took the first degree. I know nothing about Masonry and those things may be equivalent for all I know, but it's not obvious to the reader who knows nothing about the subject which is a lot of readers. WP:V Wehwalt (talk) 23:37, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

And in answer to your question, an article on the website of a Florida lodge is ... marginal. I probably wouldn't revert over it but I'd urge seeking a better source such as the books I mention above. Harding has also had biographers who may mention his membership. Wehwalt (talk) 23:39, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

yep I see that. If we were to re-add it, I would make that correction. I generally leave any talk comments uncorrected. Thanks for helping to track down some good books on the topic! Jjazz76 (talk) 23:43, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't oppose a mention, I'm just trying to keep up standards on the article, which I brought to FA some years ago. Wehwalt (talk) 23:50, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand. Unfortunately I don't have access to written biographies of Harding, and not seeing any free digital copies.

Another Masonic sources that mention his membership, that might past your test, given that it is a very prominent Masonic building just outside DC, and contains a fair amount of historical detail: https://gwmemorial.org/blogs/news/preparing-to-lay-the-cornerstone Jjazz76 (talk) 23:57, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm familiar with the structure as I lived in Northern Virginia for many years. But it doesn't say much about Harding. Wehwalt (talk) 02:01, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

"In the midst of the growing excitement, U.S. President and Brother Mason Warren G. Harding died on August 2. Initiated in 1901 at Marion Lodge № 7 in Marion, Ohio, Bro. Harding suffered a heart attack while on a speaking tour in San Francisco.

Vice President Calvin Coolidge of Massachusetts was not a Freemason, although his wife Grace was a member of the Order of the Eastern Star." Jjazz76 (talk) 02:09, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Both sources say "initiated". Cannot we use the word in that article rather than took the first degree? You try to stick to the sources. Wehwalt (talk) 02:19, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Yep that is totally fine. I'll make the change. The two words are generally considered synonyms, but I'm happy to match the text closer. Jjazz76 (talk) 02:22, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Here is a source for his mason membership: https://www.masongearshop.com/products/warren-g-harding-lodge-no-260-f-a-m-t-shirt 2603:6080:2100:D12B:240C:6A47:537C:B285 (talk) 00:58, 25 February 2025 (UTC)

The citation of Randolph Downes (footnote 53), is misattributed to John Dean. The quote, "he put on a campaign of such sweetness and light as would have won the plaudits of the angels. It was calculated to offend nobody except Democrats.", comes from page 201 (212/750 on Internet Archive) of The Rise of Warren Gamaliel Harding. The source is already in the Bibliography, so it should be an easy fix. 0niXRaven (talk) 15:28, 25 February 2026 (UTC)

Dean quotes Downes, with attribution by name. The citation is correct. Wehwalt (talk) 15:41, 25 February 2026 (UTC)