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Allegations of genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War → Ukrainian Genocide – Proposed changing the title to Ukrainian Genocide. There is evidence that a Ukrainian Genocide is going on see sources linked and sources on website for reasoning title change.
Do any of these actualy call it a genocide? Slatersteven (talk) 13:58, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
Two of those sources reference genocide. The others don't mention it.
Atlantic Council: The Russian establishment has enthusiastically followed Putin’s lead. Former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev has stated that “the existence of Ukraine is mortally dangerous for Ukrainians,” while top Putin aide Nikolai Patrushev recently suggested Ukraine may soon “cease to exist.” Meanwhile, poisonous anti-Ukrainian language has become so commonplace in the Kremlin-controlled Russian media that UN investigators believe it may constitute “incitement to genocide.” This week’s presidential decree threatening to deport Ukrainians from their own homes is the latest reminder that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is no mere border dispute or attempt to address legitimate security concerns. It is a colonial war of the most brutal kind that aims to destroy Ukraine as a state and as a nation. In the heart of Europe and before the watching world, Putin is openly pursuing policies that almost certainly meet the definition of ethnic cleansing and may qualify as genocide.
OHCHR: The Commission is also concerned about allegations of genocide in Ukraine. For instance, some of the rhetoric transmitted in Russian state and other media may constitute incitement to genocide. The Commission is continuing its investigations on such issues.
Based on these statements, the investigations are still preliminary and have not reached a conclusion yet. Thus, they are at the moment allegations. But should the investigations reach the conclusion of genocide, the article's title should be adjusted accordingly. JasonMacker (talk) 17:38, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
@JasonMacker So why are we having this discussion? This move discussion should be ended immediately, as the sources presented do not support the proposed move. Marcelus (talk) 20:31, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
Oppose for now per my reasoning above. JasonMacker (talk) 17:40, 26 April 2025 (UTC)
Support rename to Genocide of Ukrainians in the Russo-Ukrainian War, following precedent of the Gaza genocide article being titled as such based on expert legal opinion and recognition by international bodies like the ICC. JJARichardson (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2025 (UTC)
The ICC has not ruled that Israel or any Israeli official has committed the crime of genocide. Read the article listing the charges. Genocide isn't among them. Nevertheless, this article is about Russia's conduct in the Russia-Ukraine war, which means it inherently cannot use Gaza genocide as precedent, because the facts are different. Specifically, reading the charges presented by the ICC, they don't include genocide, even though the ICC can prosecute individuals for genocide. Yes, the claim made against Russia, that Russia has unlawfully transferred Ukrainian children, may amount to genocide per Article 2e of the genocide convention. However, that's not the conclusion that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and many other important human rights organizations have reached. Check out this search for "Ukraine" in Amnesty International's articles. They haven't accused Russia of genocide. Again, whether or not they should is a separate question as to whether or not they have. They have not. In contrast, check out this search for "Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory" which immediately returns multiple articles that say Israel is committing genocide. As I said above, once a consensus for genocide is established, the article's title should be changed accordingly. JasonMacker (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2025 (UTC)
Support renaming the title, per JJARichardson. A wide range of scholars, experts, human rights organisations have referred and recognised the treatment of Ukrainians by Russian forces/authorities as a "genocide", "genocidal", or as a "war of annihalation". This and ICC preliminary assessments strongly signal a genocide is happening. See Russian torture chambers in Ukraine, Russian filtration camps for Ukrainians, Child abductions in the Russo-Ukrainian War, Ukrainian culture during the Russian invasion of Ukraine, generally War crimes in the Russian invasion of Ukraine for entries describing genocidal practises. Genocidal intent has been widely reported, from media, propagandists, state officials, military officials and other figures related to the invasion. The reality in the occupied territories and beyond is genocide, it can be described as an occupation regime which enforces Russification and abandonment of Ukrainian identity and culture, opposition to that is punished by a variety of actions, up to death. Zerbrxsler (talk) 22:11, 22 May 2025 (UTC)
Support renaming the title.
Russia's actions in Ukraine fulfill key criteria of genocide as defined by the UN Genocide Convention. Genocide is the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. Evidence from the war in Ukraine suggests that Russian forces have targeted Ukrainian identity through mass killings of civilians (e.g., Bucha), systematic abductions and forced deportations of children to Russia, and rhetoric from Russian state actors denying Ukraine’s right to exist as a nation. These acts, combined with policies aimed at erasing Ukrainian language, culture, and historical narratives, indicate an intent not merely to occupy territory but to eliminate Ukrainian national identity—hallmarks of genocidal behavior under international law. 134.155.162.155 (talk) 20:22, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
Support I fully agree. In the Russian race ideology the Ukrainian people don't even exist (as separate entity or people). Goes hand in hand with "Stage 4: Dehumanization" , the Ukrainians are not people but Nazis, Fascists and whatnot. The goal is to bring the "fellow Russians" "back into the reich". To strengthen this perception the Russians move ethnical Russians to occupied territory (as seen in Crimea). Coincides with forceful displacement. The most mask down and disgusting form of this is the obduction of children. They are being stripped of their identity, and are getting told that they are Russians. This is erasure of the Ukrainian identity, or genocide. This would happen to ever child in a total occupation. Plus mass killings on direct order and all the above. Also, I think we shouldn't be to 'shy' with the term. Yes, there have been 'worse' things we consider genocide, but that doesn't mean, everything that doesn't 'hit' this 'threshold', isn't genocide. In the best case we, call these mass killings something that it isn't per definition. In the worst, we deny the intentional erasure of a people. And personally I think, not addressing it as what it is, is part of the problem. People still don't realize the extent of Russia's actions, and still think, it's just another 'normal' war about moving imaginary lines on maps because of politics. FaboVonDestory (talk) 14:23, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
Oppose: The sources presented do not support the proposed move. None of the sources refer to the crimes and actions of Russia in Ukraine as "genocide"; some explicitly state that the investigation is still ongoing.Marcelus (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2025 (UTC)
Support and if it isn't moved Wikipedia is biased. 147.10.234.99 (talk) 11:19, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
Support the renaming suggested by JJARichardson. I think the current summary of the page and cited sources correctly frame this as something that needs to be described as "according to". But this is not merely an allegation or "ordinary" war crimes because Putin and his ideologist openly stated themselves that Ukraine and Ukrainians have no right to exist (see On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians, What Russia Should Do with Ukraine, etc.). My very best wishes (talk) 21:55, 30 August 2025 (UTC)
Support: I agree with several of the above arguments. David A (talk) 08:32, 4 November 2025 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this conversation doesn't currently use the correct RM template, nor is it displayed( on the page itself, and I think that until that happens, it's not a fully fledged, listed move discussion. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:05, 4 November 2025 (UTC)
This seems very important, yes. Is somebody willing to handle it please? David A (talk) 08:32, 4 November 2025 (UTC)
Oppose as proposed. The currently written article is specifically about the Allegations. "Statements by officials and organizations", "International recognition", "Investigations and international arrest warrants", "ICJ case", and "Assessments" are all about the allegations or assessment of such allegations. The only section on actual acts is curiously "Involvement of Belarus". Conversely, see War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian war (2022–present), which covers the crimes (alleged and otherwise). The proposal does not mention the actual article at all. It may be that it would be preferable to broaden the scope of this article and rename appropriately, similar to the War crimes article, but a moving before content development is putting the cart before the horse. CMD (talk) 09:03, 4 November 2025 (UTC)
Support. Izium mass graves would be my first reference for why. My second would be that War crimes in the Russo-Ukrainian war (2022–present) contains this sentence: "A report by 30 scholars concluded that Russia is guilty of inciting genocide in Ukraine by committing acts prohibited by the Genocide Convention. The report further stated that a serious risk of more genocide exists, triggering an obligation for foreign parties to take action." Currently Wikipedia's front page has a handy link to a "genocide" page next to a link about the Gaza War in its "In The News" section, but there is no similar link to a "genocide" page next to a link about the Russo-Ukrainian War. That demonstrates bias in a way that is attracting attention from journalists. Zachary Klaas (talk) 07:56, 5 November 2025 (UTC)
Comment There is a clear majority of Support votes here, why hasn't the page been moved yet? JJARichardson (talk) 18:55, 15 March 2026 (UTC)
I'm just saying we've had a vote that hasn't been actioned on. Unless consensus isn't clear enough yet? JJARichardson (talk) 17:13, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
This is not a vote. Most discussions on Wikipedia are not votes. They are not decided by majorities, but by policy-based arguments. Also, some of the "support" !votes above are rather useless because they don't provide any policy-based arguments, e.g. "I agree with several of the above arguments" or "and if it isn't moved Wikipedia is biased". — Chrisahn (talk) 17:23, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
Oppose as it seems to be that even the two sources that says it, don't actually say it, they say allegations or incitement. So need a source saying that what Russia is doing is genocide, not alleged or incitement to, IS. Slatersteven (talk) 17:33, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
Oppose. As JasonMacker points out, very few sources and organizations actually say that this is a genocide. Regarding the case of Gaza genocide: That's not a good example. The RfC that led to the decision to call the article "Gaza enocide" instead of "accusations" or "allegations of genocide" was flawed in several ways. For example, the resolution and other writings of the IAGS contain distortions and propaganda. Many Wikipedia editors can't (or don't want to) recognize that propaganda, and thus unfortunately the English Wikipedia currently has an anti-Israel / pro-Palestinian bias. But we can't fix that here by introducing another bias. Let's adhere to WP:NPOV, even if many other editors don't. (I'm personally very much against Russia's atrocious war and for Ukraine's defense, but I try to not let my biases influence my editing.) — Chrisahn (talk) 17:36, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
You accuse others of bias above yet your rationale here clearly violates WP:NPOV, and you veer into Wikilawyering in the tangent about the Gaza genocide article. JJARichardson (talk) 15:26, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
My rationale is that very few sources and organizations actually say that this is a genocide. That violates WP:NPOV? Nonsense. (I mentioned the Gaza discussion because several others in this discussion mentioned it, and it's important to point out that it's neither a good example nor a good argument.) — Chrisahn (talk) 18:08, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
It depends how one defines "very few sources", though the very first sentence of this article cites numerous governments, international organisations and legal scholars describing Russia's actions as genocide of Ukrainians. JJARichardson (talk) 16:05, 21 March 2026 (UTC)
Support. As Stockenboi mentioned in the below discussion, Eugene Finkel said it is "now generally accepted among scholars of genocide", and that appears accurate; in addition to the report with over 30 scholars in 2022 ("Russia is guilty of inciting genocide and having the intent to commit genocide in Ukraine, legally obliging other countries to stop it, according to a new report by more than 30 internationally recognised legal scholars and experts.") it is pretty easy to find dozens of scholars taking this position, and very difficult to find any serious disagreement. This is also the position of international bodies such as the Council of Europe.LordCollaboration (talk) 18:44, 16 March 2026 (UTC)
The last source isn't quite correct. The Guardian says that the Council of Europe says that the forced deportation of children from Ukraine is genocide, but the actual text of the resolution by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe (PACE) is a bit more circumspect. Here are all occurrences of the word "genocide":
In the case of forcibly transferred children, the crime of genocide has reared its head and must be thoroughly investigated and prosecuted.
[Long list of treaties, including the 1948 Genocide Convention]
The Assembly underscores that the forcible transfer of children from one group to another group, with the intention to destroy, totally or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group is considered as a crime of genocide under Article 2, paragraph (e), of the Genocide Convention, which matches with the documented evidence of deportation and forcible transfer of Ukrainian children to the Russian Federation or territories temporarily under Russian occupation.
[Reference to previous Assembly resolution] which refers, inter alia, to the Genocide Convention as regards the forcible transfer of children.
The Assembly also supports the need for thorough recording, gathering and assessment of evidence of the crime of genocide as provided for by both the Rome Statute and the Genocide Convention.
[The Assembly also calls on] the International Criminal Court to examine with all due seriousness the possible prosecution of the crime of genocide as regards the State policy of the Russian Federation towards Ukrainian children currently within its hands
Underpinning all the above, and over and beyond the immediate measures which must be taken to protect Ukrainian civilians and children today, the Assembly stresses once more that the perpetrators of crimes under international law, including the crime of aggression against another country, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, must be identified and brought to justice.
In summary: The PACE doesn't quite say "this is genocide". The resolution says "matches with the documented evidence", but it also calls for further investigation. — Chrisahn (talk) 21:08, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
Regarding your quote "is guilty of inciting genocide and having the intent to commit genocide": That isn't quite the same as "has committed genocide". — Chrisahn (talk) 21:10, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
Regarding "very difficult to find any serious disagreement": It's probably difficult to find sources that explicitly say "it's not genocide", but it's easy to find sources that say "many don't say it's genocide". For example, your source : "Timothy Snyder: Why the West Hasn't Recognized Russian Aggression as Genocide against Ukrainians" — Chrisahn (talk) 21:30, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
Or your source : "Does that also constitute the incitement to genocide or genocidal intent? Because some international lawyers object [to that description], saying that there is not yet enough evidence of genocide." — Chrisahn (talk) 21:36, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
Regarding the Council of Europe, I think those quotes clearly indicate that it is genocide, and the reliable source backs this up, which I think is far better at interpreting this than Wikipedia editors. For example, calling for the ICC to investigate does not change this interpretation at all, so I'm not sure why you included that. Nor is this the only time the Council of Europe has referred to it as genocide, referring to it as an "ongoing genocidal assault". So, yes, the reliable source is correct.
Regarding the Snyder piece, your quote, "many don't say it's genocide", does not appear in the piece. He says nothing about how many scholars do or don't accept it as genocide. I assume you are referring to the part as indicated in the title, which is that many countries do not recognize it as such, which does not seem relevant to my point. LordCollaboration (talk) 22:17, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
I meant "it's not genocide" and "many don't say it's genocide" not as literal quotes, but as condensed versions of many similar statements. Of course the latter quote doesn't appear in Snyder's article, but "the West hasn't recognized Russian aggression as genocide" is a concrete instance of the general idea that "many don't say it's genocide". — Chrisahn (talk) 22:35, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
In your source , nobody actually says it's a genocide. The statement that comes closest to that claim is "I think that a kind of cultural genocide is part of the Russian program". (Of course, cultural genocide isn't quite the same as genocide.) — Chrisahn (talk) 22:15, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
You have replied six times to me, in addition to making your own comment and responding to someone there. I appreciate the responses, but I think you have already made your position clear. The first one was an incorrect dismissal of the reliable source, the second your interpretation of a quote that I fully included, the third a fake quote, the fourth a quote from my source that somelawyers disagree, and in this one a disagreement that cultural genocide is genocide. I don't find these responses convincing to my position that there is a scholarly consensus that there is an ongoing genocide and thus will keep my !vote. LordCollaboration (talk) 22:36, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
Regarding "fake quote": I understand how you got that impression, but you misunderstood me. See above. — Chrisahn (talk) 22:57, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
Regarding "replied six times": I addressed issues with different sources you mentioned. Would you have preferred if I had written all that in one reply? — Chrisahn (talk) 22:59, 17 March 2026 (UTC)
Regarding the quote, fair enough, but then it had nothing to do with my point about a scholarly consensus. Regarding the replies, yes, a single succinct response would have been preferable to me and I think would have encouraged a more focused response. Your first response was three times longer than my entire comment and it did not take long to confirm that the Council of Europe explicitly called it genocide. I wasn't even sure where to respond, as by time I saw this there were already several responses, some replies to yourself and some replies to me. LordCollaboration (talk) 00:14, 18 March 2026 (UTC)
Requested move
Move this to Russian genocide of Ukrainians please. If Wikipedia wants to call the Israeli military operations in Gaza the Gaza genocide then Ukraine has to be given the same treatment given even more people say it is a genocide. 147.10.234.99 (talk) 11:19, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
Are they? Has Russia (in effect) blown up every house in Ukraine? Slatersteven (talk) 11:28, 30 May 2025 (UTC)
Has ISIS blown up every house in Syria and Iraq?
Why are we still calling it Yazidi genocide?
The number of destroyed houses is not relevant when it comes to determining weather a genocide has occurred.
Genocide it not about the amount of houses blown up, its about the erasure of an people and their identity. Exactly what Russia is aiming for, even in their own narative. FaboVonDestory (talk) 07:26, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
No it is about it has been called genocide by international bodies. Slatersteven (talk) 08:03, 3 June 2025 (UTC)
Label of genocide accepted even among scholars of genocide
The idea that Russia seeks to destroy the Ukrainian nation as such is now genereally accepted among scholars of genocide.[1]Stockenboi (talk) 09:29, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
We can say "according to..." but with one source, we cannot go further. Slatersteven (talk) 09:31, 28 August 2025 (UTC)
It's kind of funny that, earlier in his career, Finkel wrote extensively about how the concept of genocide had been "abused", and about "attempts to use genocides as a tool to induce international involvement in political conflicts", but as soon as his birth country was attacked he changed his tune. Notably other scholars have said that "applying the same standard indicated by Finkel" would suggest that Israel has been committing genocide against Palestinians for decades, but afaik Finkel has been quite quiet on that point.
In short, I lost a good deal of respect for him as a scholar due to inconsistent stances, and would prefer stronger sources for the existence of such a consensus. (t·c) buidhe 14:50, 7 November 2025 (UTC)
Eugene Finkel (2024), [, p. 1840, at Google BooksIntent to Destroy. Russia’s Two-Hundred-Year Quest to Dominate Ukraine], London: Basic Books, p.13, ISBN978-1-399-80972-6{{citation}}: Check |url= value (help)
Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 September 2025
Change link for "New Lines Institute for Strategy and Policy" under the assessments tab from "Fairfax University of America" to "New Lines Institute" DeAndrew1 (talk) 15:37, 10 September 2025 (UTC)
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